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So how does everyone here feel about "political" queerness?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by Love4Ever, Oct 24, 2018.

  1. Rade

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    Hello
    I haven't read the replies above yet, I was born not straight, I knew from age ,7 upwards I wasn't straight. I have had relationships with both sexes but prefer men. So I might be classed bi but lean towards gay....it certainly isn't a choice. I would have preferred to be with my wife but the desire for guys us too strong...
    ITS NO CHOICE, not many would choose this, it destroyed my marriage,BUT I'm embracing my open sexuality and there was a really hot guy on the bus today, lol....sorry I'm happy and gay ..
     
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  2. tystnad

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    that is absolutely not what i’m saying though, my statement said absolutely nothing about gay men and your conclusion seems like a wild misinterpretation of what i meant. for me the only thing i meant was that gay men deal with homophobia - their “crime” in society is to not be straight. gay women fall victim to both homophobia and sexism - our “crime” is that we both aren’t straight AND by not being into men, reject the idea that this world revolves around men. my statement said absolutely nothing about gay men (and it’s sort of ironic that i’m now being forced to make my statement about women, about men) and i’m struggling to see how what you’re saying connects to what i said because it has nothing to do with competition. the shit we face is not because we’re removing ourselves from the competition itself. i mean, there are significantly more women than men in the world - competition is nothing straight men need to worry about, that abstract “3 guys fighting over 1 girl” scenario is not going to happen with current gender ratios. we’re facing it because society’s ideas about gender imply that as women we must always be available to men, we must desire their attraction and submit to their desire - and THAT’s what we’re removing ourselves from. we’re saying “you think the world is all about you - but no matter how much you design society to be that way, it’s not!”
     
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  3. Destin

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    Honestly, this is probably the best part of being gay. Most women have no idea how incredibly frustrating it is for guys to have to play the chase game all the time. Even when we already know she likes us and have literally heard her gossiping about liking us, we're still forced to do the whole proving ourselves worthy for weeks before she'll even speak to us thing.

    I think that's a huge reason the gay apps are popular too - it's such a huge confidence boost to open a gay app, not even do anything or even have a picture, and still have 5 dudes an hour message you. So different from the constant rejected feeling of chasing girls, you open a straight app and you'll be lucky if 1 out of 100 girls even messages back at all no matter how good looking you are.
     
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  4. Rade

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    Exactly good point, if I were 100 % gay I would have never slept with my wife.
     
  5. Love4Ever

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    I do understand many feel this pressure. I don't think it's fair at all. When I thought I was straight I actually always went out of my way to show interest in a guy I was into and didn't expect him to do everything. I actually liked shy, submissive guys because *I* feel confident making them feel confident. I have a dominant personality though so that has a lot to do with it.
     
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  6. OGS

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    I so agree with this. I understand the reason behind insisting over and over that none of it is a choice, but it really bothers me to be honest. G*d/the Universe/biology made me homosexual and it almost destroyed me. About twenty-six years ago I finally chose once and for all to be gay, and it absolutely set me free. The way that people so blithely throw around the notion that no one would possibly choose this life just seems insulting to me. My gut reaction is always something along the lines of "speak for yourself, I quite like my life." My life is not some thing that I was sentenced to, or some sort of punishment, it's something that I have carefully and painstakingly built through countless decisions and frankly a lot of hard work--it's something I love, something I'm proud of, something I chose, and, yes, I think in it's own little way it transforms the world, I've seen it do so over and over...
     
    #26 OGS, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  7. Destin

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    With all due respect and as well written as that post is, you feel that way because you won the game already. Of course you like your life, you literally have everything. I completely understand you worked for it and I'm not trying to devalue your work, but you don't seem to have anything significant wrong in your life while others have quite a lot of things. Based on what you've said: Ivy league degree, working in the most prestigious part of your field, for sure making six figures, living in one of best cities in the world surrounded by other white-collar wealthy gay people, married to a very attractive guy while somehow still friends with your exes, accepted by your parents, and even before you knew you were gay you still were popular with women so you must be attractive too. What is there not to like exactly? You've won every single aspect of life in the best way possible.

    Most other LGBT people have exactly none of that, and being LGBT just makes their difficult life even more difficult. How much would you like being gay if you lived in the middle of nowhere with a crappy job and had nothing to look forward to except finding a relationship, but being gay made that nearly impossible because there's barely any openly gay people for 100 miles. That's why people say no one would choose this life... the one and only thing that's universally the same between all segments of society is the hope of finding someone to love one day. Being gay takes that away from people and leaves them with nothing. It's not a good thing, it's a curse, there are no significant benefits over being straight with tons of downsides for those who don't already have amazing lives.
     
    #27 Destin, Oct 25, 2018
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  8. OGS

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    Yes, my life has worked out pretty well. But the fact of the matter is that I grew up in the seventies, poor, in Utah in a deeply religious family. I tried to kill myself my senior year in high school. If my Mother hadn't come home unexpectedly and had my stomach pumped I wouldn't have survived for any of that to happen. Am I fortunate? Definitely. But the fact remains that people make choices and those choices matter...
     
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  9. Lin1

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    I have a similar feeling toward my life but again, I would argue that you actually "chose to be gay", for me you simply chose to accept and embrace it which is, in my opinion, completely different to actually chosing to be gay.

    Even if you had dated women, instead of chosing to accept your sexuality, you would still be gay, just a gay man dating women.

    I had a hard time accepting my attraction for women, I didn't chose it and I definitely had and have no control over it, but I CHOSE to accept it and embrace it, and now I ABSOLUTELY love being queer and my life as a queer woman and dating women and if you were to give me a contract to sign over the possibility of ever dating a guy again (with all the privileges that that includes) to exlusively date women I would sign it right away. I would CHOSE to date exclusively women (in fact I already do) but I never had a choice in whether or not I was attracted to them.

    I think nobody could genuinely say they've had a say in who they are attracted to, but yes, of course, people can chose whether to accept it or go against it.

    So I guess one could chose the "lifestyle" (aka dating people of the same-sex, being involved in the community as someone who date people of the same-sex) but not the actual sexuality and fact of being gay.
     
    #29 Lin1, Oct 25, 2018
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  10. OGS

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    I actually said G*d, the Universe or biology made me homosexual. I only chose to be "gay" in that I think it's quite different than being homosexual. I certainly didn't choose to be attracted to men but I think I did choose to be gay, and frankly did so in a time when a lot of people didnt even think it was an option.
     
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  11. DirectionNorth

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    I agree with @Linning, I think the way most people here are saying chose to be gay means choosing to accept or realize they're gay, not so much like a straight person who, in this hypothetical example, never had any thoughts about the same gender other than "that outfit looks awesome on them", but is a strong ally of LGBT, wakes up one day and says "I want to support the LGBT more so I'll say I'm gay!"

    I can see both sides, while they're not hurting anyone, and it is great to have an enthusiastic supporter, and I personally have no problem with it- I can also understand the people who get annoyed by it, since it makes it harder to fight the republican conservatives who all excitedly point and say "SEE?! I SAID IT WAS A CHOICE, THEY ARE JUST CHOOSING THIS, SEEEE??" And that ends up being counterproductive when gay people do not choose this, it just is. We, most of the time, come to a point where we choose to acknowledge it or figure it out, first to ourselves, then we definitely make a choice to come out to others or not, but we don't choose the fact we are gay.

    That's at least why I think LGBT people would have a problem with it, and might be wrong, or they might have other reasons. But again, I don't have a problem with it, I'm just trying to brainstorm why others might not like it, especially people in the community.

    And overall, I agree with most of what @tystnad said, that we can't speak for anyone else's thoughts or feelings and no one has a right to invalidate others because we don't know their thought processes in their life. We get invalidated all the time when we know for a fact we're gay, we know who we're attracted to, how much does it help having someone who's only known you less than 5 minutes say "nah, you're just confused, the media is influencing you, blah blah, etc". And those political gay people(when I say gay in my post, I mean umbrella term for men and women and all of LGBT), for all we know they might still be figuring themself out and realize they actually are gay later on; some people don't know until later on in life.

    So, yeah, definitely interesting topic and some really smart takes on it, rather than the simple torch and pitchfork responses of "Right or Wrong" lol.
     
  12. UMedusa

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    And yeah, it's not so cat and mouse with lesbian dating! That is for sure. :slight_smile:
     
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  13. Mihael

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    I knew a man like that too, although I know he was confused whether he likes women physically or not. But this is another issue, I think. I think it still wouldn't be choice if he was bi and submissive. He would still be following what feels better for him.
     
  14. Mihael

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    I don't mind pursuing. I do it all the time, because I like shy guys (apart from girls). It doesn't feel discouraging for me. It is sitting there and waiting that kills me. So I guess some people have the right personality for it, some don't.
     
    #34 Mihael, Oct 25, 2018
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  15. Rade

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    Well you might be a bit cross at me then .... I am bisexual and didn't choose to be gay. I was born not straight.
    I'm now embracing my new gay lifestyle as I am honest with myself. But in this transitianal stage I don't feel I am choosing the gay life I'm just being me and have to live honestly. .
    I hope that makes sense.
     
  16. Rade

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    God....this thread is a steaning hot potato ......we ain't all gonna agree......
    I embrace being gay but it's no choice I strongly remember as a child asking myself why men were men mire appealing than women at age 7.....

    Don't be mad but this is what I believe
     
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  17. OGS

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    I certainly wouldn't be cross at you. It sounds like you're doing a great job of figuring things out and living honestly. And just to be clear I'm in no way saying that being homosexual or bisexual is a choice--I think it's pretty clear that's hard wired in either at birth or not long thereafter. But I do think there are choices after that and, for me, that's where being gay comes in to the question. For me being gay is not just a statement about attraction it's a statement about identity. For me that was definitely a choice. I think part of the difference may come down to how much more acceptance there is now. When I came out pretty much everyone I came out to had literally never met a gay person before. There's a reason people write on these forums "back when I was twenty being out just wasn't an option", but it was an option, just a really difficult one, to step forward and say this thing about me, this thing that pretty much everyone literally thinks is a mental disorder, is central to my vision of myself. It was a choice to live openly and honestly, in accordance with who I feel I am. I don't begrudge people who made different choices but it bothers me when people besmirch the choice that I made.

    It's like if you were an accountant. You enjoy your work, it's enabled you to provide well for your family. And frankly there's something about a nice clean spreadsheet that just brings a sense of peace to your soul. You know it's certainly not for everyone but it really is for you. And then everywhere you go people greet the news that you're an accountant by saying "well, it's not like anyone would really want to be an accountant..." and somehow they think they're being supportive. I mean, it's just rude, and one wouldn't have to think everyone should be an accountant to think people should stop saying that.

    I guess I would just prefer that people not feel sorry for me. And frankly if one wants to feel sorry for me, feel that way because both my parents passed relatively early in my life, feel sorry for me for the fact that I really have no sense of direction whatsoever (seriously, I can have been somewhere multiple times and have no idea where it is). I'm sure we can find countless other reasons for people to feel sorry for me if we really put our heads together, being gay doesn't really feel like one to me... It can feel like one to you if you would like, it felt like one to me when I was a senior in high school taking the fistfuls of pills to finally just bring it all to an end, it doesn't feel that way any more and frankly hasn't since I embraced it some twenty-six years ago and chose to be who I have become. That's all I'm saying--just please don't tell me that it's obvious that I would not want to be who I am.
     
    #37 OGS, Oct 26, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
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  18. Canterpiece

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    Personally, if I had the choice right now, I'd be straight. It'd just be easier. People already assume that I'm dating my best friend, heck even random people on the street do and comment things such as "Boyfriends are a lot to handle, am I right?". It'd certainly make dating easier anyway. Plus I wouldn't have to deal with awkwardly coming out, which I have to do a lot. Sometimes I mean to, but decide against it at the last moment. Mainly because when I try to, my mind just decides "I see you're trying to come out, want me to remind you of that time you were gagged on a playground floor and beaten up for doing so?". Um no, please don't remind me of that, I know that's not gonna happen this time but it certainly doesn't help my nerves in this situation even though I know it'll probably go fine. So my nerves get the best of me and the moment has gone. But my stomach still feels like it is tied up in knots and that just makes the rest of the day uncomfortable. Coming out through text message or instant messaging somehow seems less daunting.

    Meeting other gay people isn't always that easy either. Apparently there's an LGBT meetup near me but it must be one of the most poorly promoted events because I cannot find any information on it what so ever. I know that there are some gay bars, but from what I've read the vast majority in my area are tailored towards gay men. Occasionally I meet the odd lesbian or bisexual girl in my life, but we're usually incompatible in some way, they're already in a relationship, or I'm just not into her. Typically I fall for straight girls, and whenever I get a crush these days my usual first thought is "Yep, I bet she's straight". *Sigh*. There were two events aimed at LGBT students, but I missed the first because I was busy, and the second time I was ill.
     
  19. Blackbirdz

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    Just to be clear, there is no debate. Sexuality is not a choice. I took a look at the queerbychoice website in the OP. Here are some of the views she espouses:

    Here she is trying to rationalize why homosexuals limit themselves to one option:

    She theorizes that fear is what prevents homosexuals from exploring their attraction for the opposite sex. And finally, to give a better idea of what queerbychoice is about, here is quotation from an article hosted on her website:

    To summarize, the author of the website queerbychoice (Gayle Madwin) is a bisexual woman who originally identified as heterosexual but discovered later in life that she also experienced same-sex attraction. So, in her mind, she purportedly made the choice to be "queer". And to address one of the other examples given by the OP - Cynthia Nixon, who made the contentious statement that for her 'gay is a choice', is apparently a bisexual woman as well. Their sexuality was never a choice, but because they discovered their attraction to both sexes, they see it as a choice. Madwin's website queerbychoice theorizes that everyone has this choice and that's just flat out wrong. Rather than acknowledge sexuality as an innate unchangeable quality, she comes up with some convoluted theory about direct/indirect choices and how fear and social stigma cause people to limit themselves to either homosexual or heterosexual behavaior. And yet homosexuality is observed in many other animal species besides humans. Does she think that fear of labels and social stigmas cause homosexuality in giraffes and penguins as well? Madwin would make a great conversion therapist. Ditch this website.
     
    #39 Blackbirdz, Oct 27, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
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  20. Love4Ever

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    Well that is you opinion. Which you are entitled too. But I completely disagree. And my discussion was not geared towards finding on answer. I just wanted to hear people's experiences and thoughts on the matter. As I said before, I don't care how anyone feels about or defines their sexuality. It is none of my business. But I don't think we should be telling people who feel otherwise that they're wrong. The whole point of this discussion, for me, is that queer people exist and we deserve rights because nothing we do hurts anyone. So therefore whether you feel you chose this or were born this way or what have you just isn't important. What needs to change is people's attitudes, which yes, I think are based on fear and stigma. I am sure no on will deny that homosexuality is stigmatized and we are often taught that it is bad to be anything other than straight. I deal with internalized homophobia. I ignored and didn't even realize this for years. I am still trying to work on it because it is an easy trap to fall into. I am not homophobic at all, and yet for me I was not able to accept not being straight because I blocked that off for a host of reasons. So I think her points make a lot of sense. I respect you disagree though.