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Scared of going to hell

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by anonmember, Aug 2, 2019.

  1. Benway

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    That's fine, I'm something of a casual Jesusist myself. I was raised Catholic (loosely) and went to Catholic school. It's cool that you can actually get something out of religion because I never could. When I was a kid in Catholic school I understood the basics of everything they were telling me except for Jesus. I never understood why Jesus had to be born as a mortal man, go through all these hoops and ultimately die on the cross to forgive mankind for their sins when God could have simply opened up the clouds, appeared to everyone from the sky and say "I forgive you." I still don't understand and because of that, things like Jesus and the Bible don't really move me the way they move other people. I've read the whole Bible, it just didn't do anything for me. The only book of the Bible I even liked was Ecclesiastes. But you actually get some sort of feeling out of religion, which is something I find utterly unattainable.
     
  2. Chip

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    He is almost certainly living in deep denial and allowing his judgmental beliefs to keep him from living a happy life. There's a reason there's an epidemic of Catholic priests and other religious ministers either getting arrested for pedophilia or caught having an affair with a man on the side, and it's because they are not living in integrity with themselves. These folks convince themselves, because of religious brainwashing, that they are happy... and pretty much without fail, once they accept that they are actually gay, they are much, much happier because they are finally living an authentic life.

    No one can tell you what to do, but you get to choose whether you are happy in this life, or remain miserable because you've convinced yourself that a bunch of judgmental assholes have the right to interpret the Bible in a way that tells you you cannot be happy living the way you are biologically wired (and created by your creator) to live.

    Note here: I'm not bashing Christianity. There are plenty of Christian churches that have figured out that there's nothing in the Bible that actually says that people cannot have homosexual relationships (again, read Matthew Vines' work) and these churches embrace and welcome gay people, marry them, support them in raising their children, and fully accept and love them as they are. For someone who is gay and Christian, it seems like it makes a lot more sense to find a church where they will be loved and accepted as they are, rather than a church operated by bigots who tell you who you can love, and that if you don't follow their particular rules and interpretation of the Bible, that you'll spend all your life in eternal hell.

    There was someone I worked with who was gay, in his early 20s, soon to get married (to his male fiance) and so depressed because he could not reconcile his religious beliefs with his particular church's ignorant views (which he had wholeheartedly taken in) that he was suicidal. Like, clear plan of action, means, intent suicidal. Fortunately, he was able to take in the perspective that more sensible, progressive Christians have adopted, switch churches, and find one that is affirming and accepting of who he is. He's now married and happy... had he continued to stay with the bigoted church, he'd likely be dead. And the ludicrous part is.... the churches that teach that sort of hatred see no problem with what they're doing, even though it leads thousands of people to suicide on an annual basis, and tens or hundreds of thousands more to live a miserable, unhappy life, married to someone they don't love, unable to live and experience true joy and happiness.

    If that's what you are convinced will make you happy, then have at it. But my guess is, you'll find yourself miserable and, some years from now, doing exactly what the folks in the Later in Life section are doing. You could save yourself the time and misery if you wish, but of course the decision is yours.
     
    #62 Chip, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  3. Chip

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    The problem with that is that "trusting in Jesus", at least as you describe it, is trusting in your particular church's interpretation of what Jesus says is right. And your church interprets the Bible in a way that has very rigid and judgmental rules that have *nothing* to do with what Jesus actually said and taught.

    You are correct that true Christianity is about trusting in Jesus. But that message gets obscured in hate and bigotry and rules that attempt to control people, instead of sticking to the core message of Christianity, which is to love others unconditionally and not to judge them. At the point your church actuall gets that, it will transform into a completely different institution, as many modern Christian churches have done. Unfortunately, that requires a willingness to look at how the interpretations of teachings are fundamentally incompatible with the basic underlying message that Jesus taught, and many churches, in that way, are still stuck in the dark ages.
     
  4. Chizu

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    That is fine, but you should realize that you are being just as judging. You seem to be convinced that when you tell people you believe they are sinners headed for Hell, you aren't judging, yet as soon as people tell you they think you are wrong, they are judging you. You can say it wasn't you who made that initial judgement, it was God (or rather, what you believe to be God), but you are stating that you agree with that judgement, and are therefore judging by proxy.
    If you are going to live by this life you have chosen for yourself, then you need to come to terms with the fact that people have a very rational, justified, excuse, in being extremely offended and emotionally angered with you for telling them you they are going to go to Hell. You aren't being persecuted because people judge you after you judged them. It is a tit for a tat.
    As for standing before God, good luck with that. You best hope you got the right god, and the right interpretation about that god as well. Plenty of religions have some form of Hell or other punishment for those who don't follow it. For example, there are plenty of sects of Islam that believe all non-Muslims will go to their version of Hell (and if you read the Qu'ran, you'd know Muslim Hell is a lot scarier than Christian Hell). Not only that, but plenty of sects of Christianity still believe you will go to Hell for not following it. There are many branches of Calvinism, like the early Puritans, who believed God had selected only a hand-full of people who will go to Heaven, and everyone else will burn in Hell forever. There are unitarians who believe all who follow the trinity will burn in Hell forever, and trinitarians who believe the opposite.
    Of course, none of those may be correct. What are you going to do if you are wrong, and you stand before God, and he tells you he is offended that in your life, you believed in lies about him? What if God doesn't care if you're gay, atheists, or whatever, and just wants you to actively try to be a good person? He's going to look you up and down and be disgusted that you believed the lie that he would send people to Hell over something as trivial as being gay or not "accepting the holy spirit."
    And just what does "accepting the holy spirit" mean to you? Am I, a skeptic, going to get the chance to see it in person when I die before being given the final option of rejecting it? Or do I have to verbally say it aloud while I'm alive? If I have to be alive to have the chance to be saved, than what about the people who lived their lives never even knowing what Christianity is? What about the North Sentinel Islanders, a people who live in the middle of the Indian Ocean, and have no contact with the outside world? Does it make sense that they are going to Hell, when they never even had the chance to be "saved"?
    You don't need to have all the answers, but you should at least think. Try to have an open mind, and accept the possibility that you may be wrong. I have accepted that I may be wrong, and it has drastically improved the way I think. If there is a god, then he would have wanted us to think for ourselves.
     
    #64 Chizu, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  5. Benway

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    I think Chip may be on to something, even though I disagree with him on some points. But religion is just such a mystery to me. I've studied Catholicism, Zen Buddhism, Orthodox Judaism (which is really a lot like early paganism if you read the Old Testament), Scientology and even Shinto (Japan's state religion) and all I find are merely systems of control. I don't think spiritual freedom comes from a book or something said in oral tradition. It probably comes from practice and rituals that make you feel better about yourself. Look at my profile picture and username. My profile picture is a portrait of William Burroughs, the author of Naked Lunch and Junky. "Benway" is a character from Naked Lunch and many other stories by Burroughs. Burroughs spent his whole life seeking spiritual freedom, he thought he almost found it in Scientology but said that in the end all he found was "another system of control." He eventually picked up a set of practices I've been reading a lot about lately called "chaos magic," which he swore up and down helped him get a grip on his life a whole lot better than he ever had. Burroughs was a heroin addict for many, many years. He did every drug under the sun. But he eventually did get clean and lived to the ripe old age of 83. One of his stories, The Junky's Christmas, which is about a heroin addict who hits the streets on Christmas day looking for a fix but finds the Christmas spirit instead, ends with the words "Danny the car-wiper was off the nod." Danny the car-wiper being the protagonist of that story. I watch an adaptation of that story every year around Christmastime and think "I hope you're off the nod now too, Mister Burroughs. In... whatever dimension you're in, now." I don't know what happens after death, but I don't really think it's heaven or hell or reincarnation. But I'm not going to try to convert you into my way of thinking the way, say, my Dad's Pentecostal Assemblies of God church is always trying to convert me. It's not my place to tell people how to live their lives, I can only offer insight, as minuscule as it may seem. But the fact that you actually get something out of religion is something that I find unattainable. It's beautiful in a way, even if I don't agree with the dogma. I do believe in what some people call "God," but I don't see God as a male figure, but rather a shapeless creature reminiscent of a single-celled organism that has no gender or true shape. But that's based on what I know about my own personally revealed interpretation of God. Maybe everyone sees God differently. Maybe just believing in God forces God to exist.
     
    #65 Benway, Nov 24, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2019
  6. anonmember

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    What happened to the people in the Later In Life section? I'd like to know.
     
    #66 anonmember, Nov 24, 2019
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  7. anonmember

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    I have a friend who is Muslim and he said that the Quran says Christians can go to heaven too. I guess different Muslims interpret the gospel differently
     
  8. Chip

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    Take some time and read some of the threads in that subforum. You'll see dozens of people who convinced themselves when they were your age that they could be straight, live straight, and be happy, often because their bigoted church sold them that bill of goods.
    And they were miserable. And at some point, all of them figured out that this wasn't what they really wanted.

    So many of them got divorced, creating a world of hurt for former spouses. Some stay married and cheat on their wives/husbands. Some are here because they are miserable and want to do something different, but can't bring themselves to take any steps.

    One thing that they pretty much all have in common: They were in a similar place to you, believed the bullshit they were being sold (or was being imposed on them, whether by their church, their family, or whomever else), and now they have a whole lot more difficulty to deal with because they couldn't simply stand up and live authentically as who they are.
     
  9. anonmember

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    I’ve felt empty for 11 months now and rarely every feel happy. I used to be happy most of the time. I wonder if my new religious beliefs have something to do with my unhappiness
     
  10. Unsure77

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    Again, you can be a Christian and live as an openly gay man. Those are not mutually exclusive. You just need to find the right church (and it sounds like the one you’re at is not it). A good starting point (but isn’t foolproof) is googling “gay church”. There’s a website called “gay church” where you can search for gay affirming churches in your area. These are churches that believe you are made (as an lgbt person) exactly how God meant you to be and should be loved and accepted for who you truly are, just like Chip said. (It’s not foolproof as far as finding them, but is at least a starting point). Also, I believe Lutheran churches are gay affirming and a lot of Methodist churches are in the US (but that can be hit or miss). Stay away from anything Baptist or evangelical.

    Google “reformation project”. Look for “Matthew Vines” videos on YouTube.

    There are resources out there for you.
     
    #70 Unsure77, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  11. Unsure77

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    Also, for what it's worth, the church I'm going to now has a toooon of lesbian couples. A lot of them are just raising their families. A lot of them do a lot of ministry work. Honestly one of the families I've seen do the most work in my local community for underprivileged is a female queer couple and they make sure their sons volunteer as well. And then look at Pete Buttigeig. Whether you like his policies or not, he and his husband are an openly gay couple who are devout Christians who have lived a life of service.

    They're living a rich, full, Christian life. They just had to find the right churches (ones that supported them instead of shaming them for being what God made them to be).
     
  12. Unsure77

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    Fun fact: Want to know how many times Jesus mentioned homosexuality? Zero. The answer is zero. Jesus never once mentioned homosexuality himself.
     
  13. Benway

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    They absolutely can, I was reading about a psychological phenomenon called "magical thinking" and a lot of it comes back to organized religion an dogma. It's treatable with medication, but only in more severe cases, I think. But I deal with magical thinking a lot, like thinking that if I don't make a humble appeal to what I perceive as "God" every night before I go to sleep (you might call it prayer) I'll have bad luck or something. Maybe that's more like OCD, which I am not treated for, but still, it's a scary way to live.
     
  14. Chizu

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    That is a point we have been trying to tell you. Different Muslims interpret the Quran differently, and different Christians interpret the Bible differently, and so on with all religions and their holy texts.
    You have fallen for what is called "Pascal's Wager" which is an argument for believing in God that was invented by a French intellectual named Blaise Pascal who lived in the 1600s.
    The argument goes something like this: it is better to believe in the Christian god than to disbelieve in him, because if you're wrong about him existing, nothing happens, but if you're wrong about him not existing, you go to Hell.
    This reasoning is fundamentally flawed on so many levels. It assumes there is only one possible god that could exist, when really, there is an infinite number of possible gods that could exist. For example, I could be a god that will send everybody who doesn't worship me to Hell, and there is no way you could possibly prove me wrong. I have provided no proof that I am a god, yet at the same time, there is no proof that I am not. Now, I'm not claiming to be a god, and if I was, I'd let gay people and people who don't believe in me go to Heaven, but there are many religions on Earth that have gods who have some sort of reward for following them and some sort of punishment for not, and none of them, including the Christian god, have been proven to be true.
    As others have said on here, Jesus wasn't as anti-gay as many have made him out to be, but even if he was, it doesn't matter, because he hasn't proven himself to be the messiah, the incarnation of God, or anything else. Christians say his resurrection is proof, but it is not. Nowhere in the Old Testament did it say the messiah must be resurrected, and that is why the Jews do not accept him as the messiah. We have no proof he was resurrected, only the gospels which are supposedly written by his followers. These gospels are supposed to be eyewitness accounts, but it is very poor evidence even by ancient standards. Jesus did fly above the city of ancient Jerusalem and Rome, block out the sun, and proclaimed himself the son of god to millions of people - no, only a very few number of people according to the gospels, witnessed this - Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of Jesus, and his apostles, which after Judas killed himself, was down to 11. We don't even know if any of those people even existed, never mind if Jesus did, and if they did, it doesn't matter, we can't trust them, they were people trying to start a new religion at the time. Even if Jesus really did exist, and really was resurrected, it doesn't prove he was the son of god, it just proves he was magic.
    Going back to Pascal's Wager, if the really is a god who is going to send you to Hell for not believing in him and following a set of rules, don't you think he is going to see through you only believing in him because you're afraid of going to Hell?
    Hell is nothing more than a scare tactic that was invented to control people. The only reason people believe gay people go to Hell is because at one time or another, the ruling class needed its young men and women to make lots of babies so their tribe can outnumber the other tribes.
    If you are intent on believing in God, you might as well disregard all fears of Hell. It makes no sense that gay people and nonbelievers would go to the same place as serial killers, rapists, and genocidal dictators. And it especially doesn't make sense that gay people or nonbelievers would go to Hell but a genocidal dictator can weasle his way out if Hell by having his sins pardoned by jesus.
     
  15. anonmember

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    Muhammad (founder of Islam) said: "I don't know the purpose of life."

    Buddha said to his followers: "Seek out the truth"

    Confucius said: "I am not the way"

    But Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except for me."

    Therefore it's logical to me that Jesus (Christianity) is the correct way, but everyone is entitled to their own beliefs. Trust me, I lived as a non-Christian for 19 years, and was raised with non-Christian parents, and I thought long and hard before converting. So don't even think about telling me that "I didn't think for myself.". I will not change my mind about my religion just because you tell me to. You don't have the right to change my beliefs. I think I will watch the videos Chip suggested though. Maybe it will help me understand a different perspective.
     
    #75 anonmember, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  16. Benway

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    Wow, so you come from an irreligious background with irreligious parents and an irreligious upbringing and yet you still sought out religion and actually found it? That's unfathomable to me. Tell me all about it. What made you want to seek religion? What was the thing that made your particular religion click with you? How did you come to the conclusions you came to? I'm sorry if I seem like I'm being nosy, it's just so alien to me. I was always irreligious, even as a boy in Catholic school, I never really believed. But when I was a kid I only thought I believed. I didn't know how to process my feelings of non-religiosity and so I just kept lying to myself and everyone else that I cared about Catholicism and catechism and the sacraments and stuff. What makes you believe? I'm not condemning you in any way, I'm genuinely curious. It's something so unattainable to me that I find the thought process behind faith in a dogmatic religion fascinating.
     
  17. Chip

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    I don't think they have something to do with your unhappiness. I think they have everything to do with your unhappiness.

    I don't know if this helps, but I have a friend in his mid-20s. He was raised Catholic, and when he came out in his mid-teens... well, as you can imagine, the church wasn't big on that. A couple of years ago, he decided he wanted to try church again, because he was missing the spiritual connection. So he tried several different churches. All of them were "accepting" as long as "he didn't act on being gay". In other words... they weren't accepting at all.

    In psychology, one of the major concepts is 'unconditional positive regard' (UPR), which refers to accepting and loving someone exactly as they are, without expecting them to change. UPR is crucial to our sense of worthiness, love and acceptance.

    Anyone that matters to us (parents, friends, loved ones, and, yes, our churches and church members) need to have UPR for us if they are people we care about and matter to us. Otherwise, we will constantly feel "less than" which breeds shame, which deeply impacts our happiness and sense of worthiness.

    Saying "It's OK to be gay, but not OK to have a loving relationship with someone you are attracted to" is the polar opposite of unconditional positive regard. So going to a church that says this is going to make you feel shitty. Except you won't recognize exactly where it's coming from.

    So back to my friend... he was going to church, trying these different churches, all of which gave him these mixed messages... and he found himself getting more and more unhappy and depressed. And he was trying to convince himself that he could be straight... and when he figured out that wasn't going to work, that he could be gay and single and celibate... and the prospect of living a life alone and devoid of a loving relationship made him even more depressed. But it took him a while to figure that out.

    Once he did... he decided that he was worthy of love, and that any church, individual, or group that couldn't fully accept and love him as he is wasn't worthy of his participation, friendship, or membership. He stopped going to those churches and, while he still holds Christian beliefs, he is much, much happier now that he has fully accepted and loves himself. (There are churches around here that are fully accepting, in the UPR sense, of gay people, but he's been burned enough that he hasn't been ready to try those.)

    So... yes, I think your beliefs are directly responsible for the depression or unhappiness you are feeling. But the important piece to understand here is... you can be christian AND be gay AND be in a relationship AND have sex with your boyfriend. Those things are not mutually exclusive, no matter what a bunch of ignorant bigots misinterpreting the Bible are trying to tell you. So if you find the Christian beliefs are important to you -- and that's the case for quite a few people here at EC -- you have the option of finding an accepting church, or simply holding your beliefs on a personal level until you find a church you like, and who will genuinely treat you with UPR.
     
  18. Chip

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    "Magical thinking" is not a DSM diagnosis, is not related to a DSM diagnosis, and is not a mental health disorder. As most commonly understood, the term is sort of a derogatory term for people who have faith and believe in things that science cannot quantify (miricles and the like, which do, in fact, exist in terms of unexplainable phenomena.)

    No credible psychiatrist would prescribe medication for "magical thinking" because (a) it isn't a disorder and (b) it would not meet the criteria for something that would require medication.

    Now... if one is talking about hearing voices that don't have a person attached to them, seeing things that aren't there, and the like... that's a completely different disorder on the psychosis or schizophrenia spectrum, and for those, there are medications that exist to treat them, but that has absolutely nothing to do with religion, religious thought, or 'magical thinking' as it is commonly used.

    However, what you're describing with your own experience is a cognitive distortion; it isn't based in biochemistry, and thus, medication (other than to control obsessive thoughts) would not be effective.
     
  19. Chip

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    Here's a different perspective, non-denominational, loosely drawn in part on Brené Brown's work. (She, by the way, is a pretty devout Christian and church-goer, so quite familar with Christian doctrine)

    Human beings seek certainty in everything. It gives us a sense of control and understanding and purpose. We want to know why we're here. We want to know what will happen in the future. We want to know that our jobs, housing, etc are secure, that our families and friends are healthy. We want to be loved. We want to be in a relationship. All of those are tied up in a desire for certainty.

    Inherently, though... life isn't certain. Someone could be hit by a truck tomorrow, or have a heart attack. Our employer could go out of business. Our home could burn to the ground in a fire. And for some of us, those fears are paralyzing, so we try to do things to take control.

    Joseph Campbell, the brilliant anthropologist who spent his life studying mythology, described myth as something that 'helps humans to be in accord with nature"... it helps us make sense of that which we cannot control or understand. And in a way, religion serves the same purpose. Inherently, we cannot have provable certainty about what happens when we die. So we must have faith in a particular belief.

    The Christian belief, at least from the perspective you described, is rooted in false certainty. Jesus says "Christianity is the one true way". Well guess what? The Mormons say the same thing, and so do a lot of other religions. But they can't all be correct. And in a way, one can argue that the ones that are less certain are probably more authentic, at least to the extent of acknowledging the inability to prove anything.

    So if you've made your decision simply based on one teaching that says "My way is the one true way"... well, that's actually a pretty flimsy basis, because it isn't something you can prove... *if* certainty is what you are after.

    Again, I am in no way trying to devalue Christian belief. What I'm saying is, the Christian church, like every other religion, relies on faith and belief, not on facts, to justify the absolute truth of its assertions. So in that way, it might well be that the other prophets are simply being more authentic; acknowledging the necessity of vulnerability in one's life, and the need to take some responsibility rather than giving up control in the chasing of an (objectively) false sense of certainty. Again, if one has undying faith in a religion, then the certainty in that religion is real to them, but it cannot be objectively proven... which is the entire point of faith in religion.
     
    #79 Chip, Nov 25, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2019
  20. Chizu

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    Really? What a coincidence! I came from a non-religious family and became Christian at 19 years old just like you did! And then I deconverted, and am ancient at 27 years old now!
    No way, in any shape or form, have I ever demanded, ordered, coerced, forced, or pressured you to change your beliefs. I simply asked - not told - you simply think about different perspectives.
    If you think Jesus is true because he was the only one to ever say he is the truth, then go ahead, but it doesn't change the fact that he wasn't the only person to have ever stated he is the truth, nor does it change the fact that if he was, it automatically means he is. I've met people in the streets claiming to be the one true god. Go and google "people who claimed to the messiah" or "list of people who claimed to be god" and be prepared to be baffled at the sheer number of people who had the audacity to claim themselves to be the only truth.
    I'll leave you with the googling, because honestly, I'm done. I at first enjoyed our conversation, I thought you were open to change, but if you are going to interpret people stating facts that are contrary to your beliefs, or stating holes in your reasoning, as people making demands on you, then I'm done. Enjoy suppressing your sexual orientation for the rest of your life, I on the other hand and am going to spend the one and only life I know I have full-filling what I was born to be.