Religion

David, I'm sorry if you feel I somehow contributed to this thread not helping you as much as you had hoped. I must confess that I don't know what I did to sabotage it. You speak of a prevailing sense of anger in this thread, and I honestly don't see as much of it as you do. I see debate, yes, and sometimes passionate debates. But I think that's to be expected. When you make a thread titled "Religion", you have to reasonably expect there to be a degree of passion present. Religion is something that a lot of people put the utmost value in, so they feel a need to express their beliefs accurately. That's all I tried to do. Honestly, brother, I feel your frustration in trying to reconcile your faith and sexuality. If you're looking for an easy resolution to that struggle, I don't think you will find one. It's not easy. It's very hard, in fact. My answer to the dilemma is to acknowledge that I am indeed a person with homosexual attractions, but I choose to submit those impulses under the authority of Jesus Christ. I deny them and choose celibacy. While this denial is often not easy, I feel at peace with Christ. Not everyone agrees with my conclusion there. It is up to you to genuinely seek the truth and sift through all these opinions to find what God is trying to communicate to your heart. I sincerely pray, David, that the Holy Spirit guides you in that process.

 

I have no problem with any religion from Islam through Christianity to Shintoism, other than when that religion denies human rights or reality.
If a religion denies equality of status to women it is a misogynistic organisation. If the religion denies equal status to people of a different race, claiming they are race “chosen by god” it is a racist organisation. If they claim that homosexuality is an abomination they are a homophobic organisation. If they refuse to accept scientific facts they are a deluded organisation.
Claiming that it is the people and not the religion that is at fault is a cop-out. When those that run organise and guide hold these abhorrent and illogical beliefs and state that these beliefs are tenants of the religion, then that religion is racist, homophobic misogynistic or whatever. Stating that is the people and not the religion that is at fault it is like saying the KKK is not a racist group but some of its members may hold racist views.
If a large number of those that follow a particular religion quote their holy book to condemn gays then the only conclusion that logical person can draw is that it is a homophobic religion.
I will admit that there are religions out there that are not homophobic, misogynistic and deluded but I don’t think most fundamentalist Christian churches fall into this category
If a religion proves itself to be wrong the religion needs to change.
If a religion is causing you hurt you need to change your religion.
I changed my religion a number of times, however I was unable to change my sexual orientation, no matter how hard I tried.
I hope you find peace with your God.

 

im not even sure what the heck your talking about here as what i posted has ZERO to do with your reply.

 

I am sorry too David. I meant no harm in my posts and I honestly was trying to help the situation. We gay christians no matter what our views are on sexual acts we need to try to stick together and have respect for each other. We are kind of a minority in the gay community and we need to keep in mind what we have in common which is our faith in Christ. Please forgive me for any harm might of done.

 

Same here, David. I didn't try to make this a theology thread. LGBT Christians know what they believe because they have to...both "sides" are throwing grenades at each other while we are waving the flags asking them to stop and talk.

 

Honestly while I am agnostic, and I don't know what "god" or the universe wants I don't think sexuality is at the top of the list in terms of judging the character of a person. However I could just be giving God human characteristics...

 

That is always the message I try to peacefully bring out to believers and non believers. That not all of us are the same and that not all christians are all alike and belong to the same basket. It is unfair and it hurts to be stereotyped for your beliefs. But what we can do is find what we have in common and embrace that.

 

David, thank you very much for graciously accepting my apologies. Since you have found the answer you were looking for now, I will stop posting on this thread. I don't think there is any reason to continue on in it since its original purpose has been achieved in you reaching a conclusion about how to relate to your sexual identity. For what it is worth, I highly respect your decision. I know it was not an easy one. But I think your decision came from the right place, which was a serious intention to honor God. God bless you on this journey, my friend. If you need to talk, I am here.

 

I kind of half misread your post. I had thought you had said that your pastor would rather be judged wrong for being inclusive to gay people than judged right for excluding them, if in fact that was what God wanted people to do.

However, either way, it suggests the idea that someone could choose to do something that might lead to their being damned, out of a moral disagreement with God. If someone was persuaded that God wanted people to cut gay people out of society until they gave up their wickedness, but still didn't think that that was reason enough to act in that way, then that would be a pretty courageous stance.

And if they were right, that would effectively mean that they were going to Hell as a prisoner of conscience.

I'm certain that no one here has expressed a view that gay people should be cut out from society, but at the same time people with that view do exist.

I am generally interested by the extent to which any god is logically capable of defining morality, as opposed to just issuing law which (as with any law) individuals could disagree as to whether it was moral or immoral, and I thought that that was what you were getting at in your post.

 

I know this is all over my head. I get the concept of free will but I don't understand how a benevolent god, worthy of adoration, would allow endless atrocities to occur to innocent people. The unmitigated suffering of so many people throughout the history of the world just confuses me if there is really a god who watches over us. Someone please explain this to me.

 

It is impossible for anyone to fully understand. But we can understand that if God forced us to love him, then that is not real love. We all have choices in the life we live and unfortunately some choose turning away from the love that God gives us unconditionally. Every newscast provides proof of those that choose to embrace evil. But even in the midst of suffering, I believe there is some good to come from it. It's not always immediate nor obvious.

 

The problem of evil, as it's known, has been a major philosophical and theological problem since before Christ. The subject of explanations, or purported explanations, for why God allows evil is called theodicy.

Many (including me) would say that there is no way to reconcile an all-loving creator with an all-powerful one, if this is the Universe he made.

Others argue that evil exist because God gave us free will, and that natural disasters are a consequence of the fall of man. Also that suffering gives people an opportunity to be selfless - although to me the idea that people might suffer as a moral lesson to others is uncomfortable.

---

When I originally posted here I included a particular video that expressed the atheist position quite well. But as I thought that could turn into a discussion point and I think people are trying to wrap this up, I've taken it out. If the conversation carries on, I might bring it back. Anyone who wants to know the one I mean (it went viral a few months ago and received a lot of coverage) can ask me.

 

David -

You want people to tell you that you can be gay and be a Christian? You want people to make arguments in that favor, so that they can convince you? I'm sorry to say, it won't make a difference. I know from experience, and I have seen hundreds of people walking in your shoes, myself included. The truth of the matter is, your entire life you have been told that being gay is wrong, it is a sin, that you are a deviant, a pervert, an abomination, and worse. You have internalized that message. You feel it in your bones, and you're afraid. There is nothing anyone can write that will remove that fear--you simply need to find the strength in yourself to live your life with honesty and integrity, and then come to your own answer, whatever that might be. This is the truth of your situation.

However, if you want someone to discuss with you what the Bible actually says on homosexuality and sexuality in general, just read my post below. I have had these discussions many times.

 

Hi
I feel compassion for you that you deny yourself the fulfillment of such a natural and joyful aspect of life. Sex is sublime.

 

Then why did that very same god command the Israelites to commit multiple massacres, to enslave people and rape them to procreate?

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 12:51 AM ----------

You do realise those have all been established as holy sites centuries, if not more than a millenium after the fact.
This is the equivalent of claiming that Spiderman exists, because New York exists.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 12:54 AM ----------

To be fair, Dano falsely accused him of mocking his beliefs, when all Section 18 had done is ask critical questions about it.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 12:57 AM ----------

You'd first have to rigourously define what a Christian is, otherwise you're commiting the No True Scotsman fallacu.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:11 AM ----------

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)


"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.“ (Matthew 24: 25-34)

Probably. Just like readin the bible makes many Christians atheists.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:14 AM ----------

Dano, just a few pages ago, you complained about somebody apparently mocking your beliefs.
Here you are not just criticising someone's believing, you're claiming it will be destructive for them to believe it.
Jesus had a saying about planks and specks with regards to this.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:16 AM ----------

Not just adulterers, even disobedient children.

 

“For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.” — Matthew 5:18-19

“It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid.” (Luke 16:17)

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest part or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.” (Matthew 5:17)

“Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:21 AM ----------

Was that really the only way for god to solve the problem?

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:26 AM ----------

So you believe light was created before the sun.
That the moon is a source of light.
That earth and everything on it was formed in seven days?
That there was a mass slave population of Jews in ancient Egypt that subsqeuntly migrated en masse to Jerusalem?
And that's not even touching the miraculous claims.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:28 AM ----------

Like Matthew 5:18-19, 5:17, Luke 16:17 and John 7:19.
All of which contradict your claim.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:33 AM ----------

Except that Jesus does not fufill the lineage as he's born from God, not Josef and as such has no direct relation to the sacred lineage.

The Jews, the people with the original Abrahamic religion, disagree with you about that.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:35 AM ----------

The Paulist nature of modern Christianity is often overlooked by most Christians.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:37 AM ----------

Again, I have to ask, are you aware that the Jews, who wrote the orginal Torah and still recite in Hebrew, disagree with your claims about Jesus and Christianity?

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:40 AM ----------

False. The gnostics lost the popular vote.
They have no more been proven true in their beliefs than other Christan denominations.
This is circular reasoning: The Gospel of Thomas is wrong, because the people who wrote it are wrong, because they don't agree with the current dogma.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:43 AM ----------

Why was this omniscient, omnipotent god incapable of guiding a correct version in one go?
Why the need for multiple revisions, selections of texts and re-translations?
More importantly, why is this omniscient, omnipotent god incapable of presenting convincing evidence to all the none-believers, including theists of other faiths, if he professes to love humanity so much?

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:46 AM ----------

^This^
It frustrates me how some people always try to stifly open and honest discussion of ideas by claiming it might offend.
With the exception of one exhange between Section 18 and Dano, no-one has attacked anyone or expressed anger at anyone.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:49 AM ----------

You are, among other things, falsely equating sex with drugs and implying sex is a bad thing.
Why?

 

And on what objective basis are Mark, Luke and John, which btw have been established as not having been written by the actual Mark, Luke and John, true and other gospels false?
Just like arguing the bible is true, based on the bible is circular reasoning, so is it circular reasoning to argue anything not in the bible is false, because it's not in the bible.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:53 AM ----------

Can you quote some examples, outside the aformentioned exchange between section 18 and Dano?

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 01:54 AM ----------

He also entitled to pointing out your opinion is irrational.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2015 at 02:00 AM ----------

It can't be explained, because it's a contradiction in terms.
It's the famous Epicurus dillema:
"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
— 'the Epicurean paradox'.

Or simply put:

1 God exists.
2 God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent.
3 An omnibenevolent being would want to prevent all evils.
4 An omniscient being knows every way in which evils can come into existence, and knows every way in which those evils could be prevented.
5 An omnipotent being has the power to prevent that evil from coming into existence.
6 A being who knows every way in which an evil can come into existence, who is able to prevent that evil from coming into existence, and who wants to do so, would prevent the existence of that evil.
7 If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent God, then no evil exists.
8 Evil exists (logical contradiction).

 

Linthras the conversation has ended respectfully for the most part. Out of respect for David and others i refuse to debate with you your thoughts on what was said. Have a nice friday.

 

Would you be amenable to a seperate topic/thread to discuss things?
Btw, it's already saturday over here. :icon_wink