1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Racism in the Gay "Community"

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by r2de2baca, Jul 21, 2019.

  1. r2de2baca

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Over the rainbow
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I am not white. I am black. I live in America. So when people say gay "community" or even the world "gay" it is very hard for me to feel apart of those words or identify. I find there to be so must internal racism among the white male gay community against anyone that is not white. As a black man that identifies as "bi" if I must use these antiquated labels, I have experienced racism in general but the racism from gays boggles my mind. Overall I find there to be a higher level of caddiness and digs/barbs/insults/downright bitchiness that is directed between gay men of all races than between straight men. It almost seems like a war of words from hurt people who want to let the world or other gay men know "I am not longer the victim that used to take verbal abuse and insults as a kid, I will attack first!!" So ok I get it. Doesn't mean I condone but ok I get it.

    But what I do not get is how you can put other people down because you feel some superiority complex. This mostly has come from white gays. The same people that used the Loving Civil Rights Interracial Marriage case to advocate for gay marriage equality and won it, are the same people that will look at you like trash in a club or bar or ignore you and walk away as though you never said "Hi". This has happened to me more times than I can count. When a white gay man does approach me in these gay environments that are supposed to be safe places, it is almost always met with some racist sterotypical trope or question about 1. Me having a purported Big Black C!ck ( yes they say the word) or asking me where they can find drugs or if I have drugs they can buy. So out of all the white men standing here, you come up to me (a corporate professional and dressed like a professional in his 40s would be) and ask me for drugs. Gee thanks. Even if I am dressed in casual attire or street inspired attire that does not give anyone the right to ask me or assume I have drugs. Yes I call them out on this each time but it gets annoying and makes me angry. I wont even mention that black jokes Ive heard by people who think its just funny to say the N word and its just a joke...."

    Eatablishments that are white that refuse to play hip hop music so they womt attract "the wrong crowd" or institute dress codes "not baseball hats" so they can basically say "We dont want your kind here without getting a lawsuit". Meanwhile the place is a dump and people are dressed like trash and doing all manner of raunchy things in the bathroom so its not like Im going inton Kessington Palace.

    When you voice these things the so-called community says you are playing the race card. It's just so hurtful. You come out thinking ok gosh this is hard, I am making a choice to have a more difficult road and go against the grain.. only to know that you can and will never be able to be "seen" or contextualized outside of being "the black guy with a big d$ck that can probably sell me drugs too." So no, I dont feel apart of a "community" and I should not have to segregate myself solely with my own race to feel safe.
     
  2. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I'm sorry you have been treated this way. Thank you for bringing your situation to my attention.

    Of course there is no excuse for racism. Sometimes, though, unless you're the one living it; it is difficult to notice when racism is being practiced by others. I guess it's something I need to watch better.

    As far as finding that community. Do you have interests that you may find to share with other people regardless of sexuality?

    I know, it may be easier for some than others. I'm an outdoor fitness addict. I've made all my friends this way. Now, after I've come out, I find gay friends in the same "community". I can't recall anyone worrying about another's ethnicity or race. Pretty much if one can ride his mountain bike, he is accepted.

    I hope you can find this sort of thing.
     
    Hamiltan likes this.
  3. r2de2baca

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Over the rainbow
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Oh sure. There are meetup groups for things like this. I find people to be cery accepting in those environments. Its the bars and clubs that are not as accepting. I guess any place where cruising exists its can be more of the negative environment. I just have started to avoid those sorts of things and people. I find myself retreating into isolation more and more.
     
  4. justaguyinsf

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    375
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    You could arguably put this website in the same category ... are any of the moderators other than white men?

    Anyway, it's very difficult to get the gay-male community to look at its own problems because its members reflexively fall back on their victim status when called to task, and because popular media is interested only in the frivolous (e.g., "pride" parties, drag shows, etc.) aspects of the gay community rather than portraying them as full adults, thus reinforcing the stunted development of gay men.
     
    Rachel9245, Sepina and Hamiltan like this.
  5. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Ouch! This is really disconcerting to hear so many are subjected to this sort of thing on a regular basis. You bet when I attend Pride or a gay campout, there is a culture of acting "gay". But, I see this as a party face. I have a number of gay friends. One couple are hardcore climbers and canyoneers. Another is a hardcore extreme skier. My FWB is what we would all call "just a normal guy". Cause that's what he is on every level including his sexuality. He is just gay otherwise he is like any other guy you might meet. My brother and his husband flip houses and rebuild old cars. NONE of these guys have ever fallen back on "victim status". But, ALL of these guys enjoy a good gay party. What's not to like about thumbing your nose at a society that has tried to put you down forever. This is not being a victim. This is celebrating a victory. I wear rainbow teeshirts and wave a flag a couple days a year...so do my friends. That's all.

    I know that you guys experience a different world than I do and I wonder why that is? Could it be that all of the guys I just mentioned are out but do not need to express often to be authentic? Maybe look for connections with those guys cause they are out there. There are a LOT of them out there.

    As a bisexual, I still do experience some discrimination when I attend those events. But, I get where that is coming from. I have learned to forgive it and look at how each individual treats me outside of this group dynamic.

    All that said. I would not cut anyone some slack for discriminating based on race. There is no room for forgiveness of that behavior.
     
  6. justaguyinsf

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 30, 2016
    Messages:
    603
    Likes Received:
    375
    Location:
    San Francisco, CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    It's interesting that you appear to assume that I'm not white (i.e., "you guys"). In any event, you seem to be satisfied with the status quo in the gay community. Carry on, brah.
     
  7. SevnButton

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    970
    Location:
    Southern California Coast
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Hi @r2de2baca -
    As an OWG (old white guy) I don't think I understand what it means to be on the receiving side of racism. OK, there has been a time or two when someone of a different background has seemed rude or impatient and I have been left wondering why. But it hasn't been pervasive. It saddens me to know that you have had to put up with this crap. I don't think that clubs and bars bring out the best in the people. It's a shame.
     
  8. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Eh? I wasn't referring to race with my comment. I was referring to both you and @r2be2baca and your complaints about the quality of the "gay community". It seems to be an ongoing theme. And, I do understand where you both (you guys) are coming from.

    I'm only pointing out that the "gay scene" is in a lot of respects a bit of a costume party. And, that's quite all right. There is SO much more to the LGBT social scene than what you describe...at least in my experience.

    I find it puzzling I guess.
     
    Hamiltan likes this.
  9. OGS

    OGS
    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2014
    Messages:
    2,716
    Likes Received:
    728
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    It seems like there is a fair amount of pretty blatant racism in the gay community, although I'm not sure I'm convinced it's worse than in society at large. I know I've certainly seen some comments here on EC that I found rather shocking. I've found myself saying to myself over and over "wow, I guess I always knew there were people who thought that, but I didn't think people actually said it any more."

    I try to be pretty cognizant of my own biases and the way they affect how I see things. I'm sure there are things I do that I don't even realize; unfortunately that's kind of the nature of privilege. I think for me it comes out more directly as classism. I try to be aware of that as well but it's something that I've found is pretty engrained in me and unfortunately given the relationship between class and race in the States it almost surely has racial overtones. For instance, in my largest gay friend group we have people of pretty much all racial backgrounds but what we really don't have is anyone who isn't pretty solidly middle class at least in lifestyle. For instance, I'm pretty sure all of us are at least college educated. It's not like anyone set out to make that happen (at least I don't think so) but there's something about common experiences and interests and the like. Then, frankly, the way we socialize requires a fair amount of money when you think about it. Also just the expectation that people be available in the evenings--it occurred to me that twenty years ago a lot of people in the group (myself included) worked evenings but now none of us do, which is again a fair measure of privilege that is sort of presupposed within the group.

    It's hard to police your own thoughts but something we need to all be better at...
     
    gravechild likes this.
  10. r2de2baca

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Over the rainbow
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    So noone on here is going to call out that a user saying most black guys are thugs is not racist in nature? I guess people only come to your defense and call out something as discriminatory if you say "I like masculine men" but on this so-called community you can turn a blind eye to someone on a post about racism in gay community making assumptions that "most black men are thugs or poor or imfected with HIV." Wow this is exactly what I am talking about. Where is he so called community when your "own" makes these assumptions amd sterotypes about others in the community. Let this post serve as proof to how the gay so-called community deals with its racism....SILENCE!
     
    Hamiltan likes this.
  11. maybgayguy

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2015
    Messages:
    218
    Likes Received:
    64
    Location:
    MN
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    I agree that was an ugly post and demonstrated your point. Sorry to you have to deal with the bullshit. Looks like it was deleted???
     
  12. johndeere3020

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1,104
    Likes Received:
    426
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    There are other ways to bring a negative post to the staffs attention rather than continue a argument with someone who view points are such.
     
  13. r2de2baca

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Over the rainbow
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Thank you. How can I "come out" when being met with experiences and sterotypes like this.
    Oh whatever. I said what I said. Period. I have said "I like masculine men versus feminine men for dating" and in one hour there will be at least 5-10 posts calling me homophobic, internalized homophobic, stop whining, etc etc etc. Someome says the majority of black men are thugs and you want to admonish me on equitte about how I choose to take offense to that racist remark but I find it funny that you never address the remark itself or say it is not acceptable. Im glad I responded the way I did and made the post. It illustrates exactly what kind of "community" non white gays have to come out to. Sure everything isnt perfect for anyone coming out but to experience racism among gays is wrong om so many levels. Once again you blame the victim for how he reacts to a racist statement while never addressing the racist statement. Classic. This needs to be shown openly to show to everyone what level of hypocrisy exists.
     
    Hamiltan likes this.
  14. r2de2baca

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Over the rainbow
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    And may I add that saying "most black men behave like thugs" and are "dirty" is not a "different view" as you put it but it is indeed a racist comment. That would be like a homophobic person saying "most gay men are drug using whores" would be a deeply unacceptable homophobic comment and I doubt very seriously you would tell anyone on here "there are orher ways to bring this to the staff's atrention versus arguing with someone whos view points are such."
     
    Hamiltan likes this.
  15. SevnButton

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    970
    Location:
    Southern California Coast
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Hi @r2de2baca -
    First of all, and beyond all else, I'm really glad you're on Empty Closets because your posts help me. I suppose that's kind of selfish of me. I hope some of my posts have been useful for you.

    I think any relationship is built on a combination of shared experience and differing perspective. It's the shared experience that brings us together, and it's the different perspectives that help us to grow.

    As a privileged white male I grew up with a certain trust for authority. If I had a problem in school I felt I could go to a teacher or a counselor. As an adult I'll reach out to law enforcement. On Empty Closets I'll respond if I'm offended, but if the problem persists I'll bring it to the attention of an administrator. I don't see value in a confrontation that isn't going to change anyone's mind. Nor is there value in allowing an insult to be unchallenged.

    I think for a person who has a perspective of a lifetime of subtle and blatant discrimination, the choices would be quite different and understandable.

    One might hope that people in a community that has lived with oppression would strive to eliminate oppression of others. Sadly, it doesn't seem to work that way.

    But anyway, thanks for being here.
     
    Nickw likes this.
  16. Nickw

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2016
    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes Received:
    1,397
    Location:
    Out West
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I'm confused. I didn't see this post. Was it up for awhile?

    I sometimes have trouble putting myself in other people's shoes like @OGS wrote. But, I don't think most of us here would stand for statements as you described.

    I am grateful that you started this thread. I will be more watchful of the sort of discrimination you have been subjected to.

    TBH, I don't frequent the club scene and live in a small liberal college town. So, your experience is not something I've witnessed. This must be really horrible. I sincerely hope you can find an accepting community.
     
    Nic2552 likes this.
  17. r2de2baca

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    53
    Location:
    Over the rainbow
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Thank you for the kind words and support. The post with the comments was deleted. Certainly not all white gays are racist. In fact, I am sure this is a very small group. I also think its ok for people to be attracted to their own races for dating. Doesmt mean you are racist, you just have a preference. But its when people looked down at you as beneath them is a problem. This is very real in white gay spaces when non whites try and partake in "community". My post was to bring attention to this and question how could this be. I am glad for the positive remarks. It gives me hope.
     
    SevnButton, Nickw and maybgayguy like this.
  18. SevnButton

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    970
    Location:
    Southern California Coast
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    @r2de2baca , I'm kind of stuck between ignoring our differences and understanding them. If I were to meet you in a social situation, I'm pretty sure we'd have a lot to talk about. I'd really want to ask you, "What's it like being Black in America?". But I'd be so hung-up on the fear of offending you by bringing up our differences at the loss of talking about out common experience, that I probably wouldn't go there. Even in writing this, I worry about whether I should say "Black" or "African-American". If you would, please share your thoughts on this; what would be good to say, what would be OK to say, and what would be best to avoid?

    Thanks-
    =Sevn
     
  19. Chiroptera

    Admin Team Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2014
    Messages:
    2,504
    Likes Received:
    1,383
    Location:
    Brazil
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I want to remind everyone that we do not tolerate any kind of prejudice or racism in Empty Closets. Besides, even if you have good intentions, please be careful and show empathy while expressing your opinion.

    If you see any posts or threads that violate the Code of Conduct in any way, please use the report button (which is found below posts). That's the quickest way to help us in noticing the problematic posts.

    We are watching this thread carefully. Let's be respectful to each other.
     
    SevnButton and maybgayguy like this.
  20. SevnButton

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2018
    Messages:
    1,184
    Likes Received:
    970
    Location:
    Southern California Coast
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Yup! This is a risky topic! And I think it also has huge potential on the positive side. Being respect and supportive are the things that set Empty Closets above every other social media that I know of, and I am deeply grateful to @Chiroptera and the rest of the admin team and moderators for keeping it this way!
     
    Chiroptera likes this.