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Prejudice against transitioned persons, even in allegedly safe spaces

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by QuietPeace, May 15, 2021.

  1. QuietPeace

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    I have run up against prejudiced treatment in many spaces. At least in heteronormative society they will admit that they are intolerant of us. While I really dislike being denied a place to live, protection from crime or even healthcare it hurts even more to have people who claim to be open and accepting to treat me as "other". This is something that often comes up if I mention how I have been treated and there is even covert or overt statements made otherizing transitioned people in discussions where it really does not belong.

    I wish to discuss here specifically how I and other transitioned people are treated as other than who we represent ourselves to be.

    To explain how I see this treatment I will make an example, this example is going to be specifically about transitioned women but it could also be reversed or even also about nonbinary people. I am going to talk about how singling out a transitioned person as either something to prefer or to avoid is prejudice and about not seeing them as who they are and not just a "preference". A preference would be about things like height, hair color or length, clothing style, hobbies etc and not about identity.
    https://sociologydictionary.org/prejudice/

    Take two women both about average attractiveness, similar height, weight, hair color and style etc the only real difference is that one is AFAB and one is AMAB and that difference cannot be determined except by asking them or examining their health history.

    Now take three persons who are attracted to women the sex/gender of these three is unimportant, all three when meeting both of the women find them attractive. Then they are told that one of the women is AFAB and the other is AMAB. The three reactions are

    One simply acknowledges it and their attitude towards both women does not change.
    The second suddenly becomes more interested the AFAB woman and finds the AMAB woman to be no longer attractive to them.
    The third suddenly decides that the AMAB woman is more interesting because she is "special" in some way (their interest in the AFAB woman may diminish or not)

    The first is the only one who really sees both women as women.
    The other two do not see the AMAB woman as a "real" woman, one sees her as something to avoid while the other thinks that by not being a real woman she is special in some way (a fetish object as I have been treated often)
     
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  2. Suitsme

    Suitsme Guest

    You may not like me for this but I am an honest person so here goes....

    I am not pansexual I am attracted to ciswomen. This doesn’t make me a bad person. There are many like me.

    if my circumstances and health allowed, I would possibly transition physically to male. I would never expect a straight woman or gay guy to want to be with me. They are not pansexual. I dare say their attraction could change them and they could become pansexual but I would never condemn anyone for choosing not to be with me on the basis that I was transman.

    My son is gay and we had this conversation and he out and out stated he wouldn’t want to be with a transguy.

    I am not the type of person to slam anyone who didn’t chose to be with me on the basis that I was transguy. I would never be a cisguy and I understand that.
     
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  3. QuietPeace

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    I cannot see anywhere that I have called anyone a bad person here. I am just stating that to prejudge either for or against someone due to their birth status is prejudiced, just the same as doing so on race or any other such thing.

    https://sociologydictionary.org/prejudice/
    I do not expect anyone either male or female to be with me any more than you do. I am just sick of people making assumptions or treating me differently in any way based on my birth assignment.
     
  4. Suitsme

    Suitsme Guest

    Forgive me, but where I live, a prejudice person is most certainly a bad person.

    I honestly don’t think that someone who chooses not to be with a transperson is prejudice. Trans is not Cis ... simple as. I don’t think people are prejudice because I’m AFAB if they want a man who is AMAB. It is their choice. They’re entitled to it.

    Isn’t this why Pansexuality exists?

    Perhaps we think differently due to our own experiences.
     
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  5. QuietPeace

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    The first is your judgement. The rest is your choice, I disagree as is the whole point of my creating this thread.

    Yes, the classification was created specifically because most people think of anyone who transitions as "other". The belief by the vast majority of people that I am not a woman but something different, that anyone who transitions is not who they say they are.

    Everyone's experiences shape how they feel and believe.
     
  6. Suitsme

    Suitsme Guest

    I find you patronising. I’ve seen similar conversations with you and others within this lovely forum.

    You constantly smash people’s opinions down and make them feel like fools just because they don’t agree with you.

    I will leave it there. I do not get involved in such negativity.

    I have nothing else to say to you.
     
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  7. QuietPeace

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    I disagree with people at times that is true, that is not "smashing" anyone or anything. In every disagreement that I have participated in everywhere in my life there was someone else who was disagreeing with me. You seem completely unconcerned about how I often feel that they are the ones in fact being violent against me, especially when their opinions are ones that match people who have committed actual physical violence against me. (I have in fact often walked away from discussions here and other places that were being very hurtful to me, I have even been chased entirely away from social media by the violence directed towards me)
     
    #7 QuietPeace, May 15, 2021
    Last edited: May 15, 2021
  8. Suitsme

    Suitsme Guest

    I
    I never direct violence towards anyone. I am one who helps as many people as I can in life. You can see from my posts here I am non confrontational.

    I never let my past issues affect the way how I deal with people in my present and I never compare everything to my past sexual abuse etc

    instead I am kind and compassionate.

    I also disagree sometimes with people but it’s how it is done. The way you come across is very “smashing down” in nature at times.

    Like for example your statement there about how I seem unconcerned about how you often feel that they are the ones being violent against you.

    Im afraid that is an absolute untruth. Anyone that knows me knows that I am concerned about every living being, especially when they have been to hell and back. I defend people against bullying and I’ve been involved in a lot of things both offline and online where I help people.

    I feel with this statement of yours that you instantly go against anyone who who feel are being violent towards you. You tar them with the same brush as those people who have abused you. I haven’t seen anyone being violent towards you here. I have only seen you attack them!!! Then you call them violent? I am very confused.

    Please do not put me in a catagory of being unconcerned!!! I am trying my best to understand you and I find it very difficult as do a lot of others (as I’ve seen here).
     
    #8 Suitsme, May 15, 2021
    Last edited by a moderator: May 15, 2021
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  9. chicodeoro

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    Getting back to the point of the original post, I think QP, if I believe you correctly, you think that whether someone is or isn't 'trans' should be ignored in relation to dating?

    I think it would be wonderful it that were true, but this is the real world. At some point I want to start dating again, post-transition. It would be hopelessly naive of me to think that I could ignore the fact that I'm AMAB and somehow embark on a relationship without telling the other person first. And if they react in a negative way, well they're not the sort of person I'd want to be with anyway!

    Would that be prejudiced? Well, I think I'm being realistic. Does it annoy me that there exists out there a large (and probably majority of) amount of people who would never consider dating someone like me? Not really. I knew as soon as I realised I was trans that my life was going to be more difficult in terms of finding a romantic relationship.

    Basically, I agree. Different strokes for different folks...Though things have progressed incredibly over the last decade we still live in a world where there is a lot of prejudice against LGTB+ people. I know that occasionally when I step out presenting as unequivocally female I'm going to get stared at by some people. But so what? What's more important to me is building up my own personal support network and building up ours as a community so things continue to get better for all of us.

    Beth
     
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  10. QuietPeace

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    Not just in dating/sex but in everything. I used that as an example to show the attitude of most people that people who transition are not "real" women or men. In an ideal world everyone would just accept the fact that I am a women, as real as any woman who was assigned female at birth. (and of course accepting all people who transition as who they say they really are)

    I would never try to date or be in a relationship with anyone without revealing, I am not that naïve. To not reveal beforehand is just a really good way of getting beaten and very likely killed (I know this from experience as when a stranger tried to rape me he decided that I needed to die in addition to the sexual assault. Followed by the police determining that I do not have a right to not be assaulted). Which just demonstrates my point that the vast majority of people (at least among the people who I have encountered in life, which admittedly is limited to people in only four nations on two continents plus those encountered online from a wider range of places) are prejudiced against people who transition, some even to the extent believing that we do not deserve basic human rights.

    This is probably a part of why I am so acutely aware of and so upset by people being against transitioned persons. No one looks at me weird if I just walk down the street or when I simply talk to them, neither my appearance nor voice "out" me. People who grow to know me better only think of me as odd due to my autistic traits. They do not start treating me as "not a real woman" unless my birth assignment is revealed to them (as I do before I live with anyone or to select but not all medical personnel - and at times some of those people out me to others). So I know what it is like to be treated like a "real" woman and then have people change and treat me as other.
     
  11. Suitsme

    Suitsme Guest

    Hello Beth,

    I am so glad that you understood my point.

    It is not Bigoted or prejudice to not have sexual preference for trans people. Bigots and prejudice people are those who do not accept the trans community for who they are. There was another thread just yesterday with someone else who I agreed with on the same subject..

    I am trans myself. I’m not prejudice and neither is my son who is gay (who will only date Cisguys). He is gay, not pansexual

    You are a very realistic, sensible and kind lady.
     
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  12. chicodeoro

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    Thank you Suitsme, that's made my day!

    Obviously, your viewpoint is deeply coloured by your own personal experience, which sounds truly horribly. I've been lucky so far and I know there are a lot of people out there who wouldn't accept me and indeed would regard me as some sort of ghastly mutation, but so what? Call me a wide-eyed Pollyanna living in a liberal South London bubble if you will, but I prefer to not let that knowledge ruin my day.

    I firmly believe that (in western societies, at least) we're winning. Yes, there are still TERFs, but I don't think in the UK at least 'the vast majority' of people are prejudiced. Ignorant and often afraid, yes. But the more of us who are out and visible, the more that ignorance and fear will fade away. Why tonight I came out to someone from my sports club who said that he'd 'never met a transgender person before'.

    'Well now you have', I replied. And after a while we went back to talking about the football.
     
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  13. Suitsme

    Suitsme Guest

    You’re very welcome.

    I see you mention you are in London. Have you ever been to Manchester? I used to live back there and the gay village was a place I used to love. I’d sit having a nice drink outside on canal street. I’ve been there sometimes when it used to be transgender night and it was lovely to see the ladies having so much fun in a safe zone.

    Ive no idea if there are similar things in London. I dare say there are.

    My regret is never going to pride. I’m not well enough now. But at least I got to see it online.
     
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  14. Mirko

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    Hey everyone, please keep the discussion on topic. If you would like to start discussing other things or have questions answered that are not part of the OP's original post, question, please use your respective walls to do so. Thank you.
     
  15. QuietPeace

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    1 ) I have never been in the UK and I quote myself here to show that I did in fact qualify the statement of "vast majority of people" as being among those who I have encountered.
    2 ) I wonder if possibly part of the issue I have with people is my being autistic and using dictionary definitions of words such as prejudice. It seems from peoples reactions to my using that word that others only call things like burning crosses on someones lawn or attempting to kill someone as prejudice while the dictionary definition is wider than that. People who are reacting to others out of fear and ignorance seems to me to fit the dictionary definition of prejudice (and I understand that my neurology changes how I see things from most people).
    https://sociologydictionary.org/prejudice/
    I used to be more open about being a woman who was originally assigned male (when I started no one was even using the term transgender and I do not even see myself as that now). I have participated in someones doctoral thesis where I was interviewed on camera about transitioning, I have also been part of public awareness campaigns more than once. I first transitioned in the mid 1980s and for much of the time until 2012 I did not necessarily make it an issues to tell everyone about but I would let people know in certain situations. That all stopped after someone tried to kill me. In the same way that my attitude towards homeless people changed after I became homeless my attitude towards whether or not everyone should be "out and loud" changed after it was driven home to me that doing so could in fact be lethal. I could go into a lot of detail about what happened to me but the details are not that important. What is important is that until I went underground a whole lot of people IRL, on social media, in comment sections on articles and so many more places made it clear that not only did they not see me as a woman but that they believed that I and people like me should not be allowed to exist. All of that was the driving factor in my learning that most people do not accept that I am really a woman.
     
  16. Suitsme

    Suitsme Guest

    I totally apologise. I do tend to ramble on. Please feel free to delete my post where I went off topic.
     
  17. PatrickUK

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    The important thing I would say in response to this thread is to avoid generalising too much. I know that can be very difficult when we have been on the receiving end of various kinds of hurtful bad behaviour and it is true that bitter experience can colour our judgement, but I am aware of a lot of love and solidarity for trans people and it's growing all the time as the terf mob (and it is a mob) seeks to exclude and divide our community.

    In saying all of this I don't seek to (and nor should we) deny or minimise the experience of anyone who has been hurt. The OP raises some important points about exclusion, prejudice and fetishisation that really need to be considered and discussed with tact and sensitivity and I am sure we can all do that.

    On a personal note, I have never really looked at a trans-guy as anything other than a guy or a trans-woman as anything other than a woman. When I was in the dating game I would have happily dated a trans-guy if there was a mutual affection and attraction, regardless of how far he had transitioned and how far he wished to transition. For me, it's got sod all to do with body parts and far more to do with the core elements of any loving and intimate relationship. That's how it should be... in my view.

    Respect and solidarity! :slight_smile:
     
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  18. QuietPeace

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  19. clockworkfox

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    No, I don't think so.

    Pansexuality is wonderful, but it shouldn't be the blanket sexuality for people looking to imply that they would date trans people. If that is the purpose of pansexuality, that implies that prejudice is the wellspring of an entire sexual identity...it does not imply that pansexual people are prejudiced, but rather that trans people are so othered in our society that we need a separate sexual identity to denote that attraction to us is a possibility. That really doesn't sit well with me.
     
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  20. QuietPeace

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    I think that I have been very clear that it does not sit well with me either but I do believe that we are that othered by society in general (and even by a large portion of LGBT+ people).
     
    #20 QuietPeace, May 21, 2021
    Last edited: May 21, 2021