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People using cases of detransition to invalidate trans people

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by RainbowGreen, Dec 7, 2018.

  1. RainbowGreen

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    Scrolling on my Facebook newsfeed, I stumbled upon another article about trans people. This time, it wasn't shared a trans group I'm in, but by a guy I know who's very invested politically. I would link it, but it's in French (yeah, for once).

    The article talked about people who detransition and how maybe society is going too fast by allowing people to transition.

    It did not provide the statistics on how many people actually detransition. It did not provide context of those people's situation. It also talked about how people are still depressed after transitioning, while not bringing any context to thoses cases, just implying that ''transition did not help'' or something.

    It then talked about how there's two approaches to transgenderism: classifying it as mental illness or allowing transition. The article implies that the former should be considered more.

    I'm honestly getting pretty tired of this shit. There can't pass a day without finding shit like this on my newsfeed or in the news. Like, why do people care so freaking much? Sorry, I'm just a bit pissed right now.
     
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  2. Athexant

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    I've found that people generally react to things they don't understand with anger and fear. They're afraid that trans people by pushing for acceptance are causing harm to other people with their ideas, and they're afraid that this might happen to someone they care about with how "popular" being trans has become. I don't agree with these sentiments at all, but I kind of understand why people react as they do. Also, people tend not to understand the wide range of trans people and the wide range of what is considered transitioning. They may not also understand that some people have legitimate reasons for halting their medical transition besides "not being trans anymore."

    It really does suck though because the only thing we can really do is just be ourselves and try to educate people, both by showing that transition is actually very necessary for a lot of trans people and by educating people on making informed decisions and not jumping straight into medical transition without some forethought. I'm not here to argue for medicalization, I'm just saying that people should really, really, really think before making permanent changes to their body. It's not for all trans people. In addition, we also have to educate that there are many reasons why some choose to forgo medical transition (the cost, fear of surgery, medical history, family situations, etc).
     
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  3. RainbowGreen

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    I agree with this and I encourage people to think about what they want to do before they do it. You don't need to do every surgery in the book to be trans. You need to take hormones to be trans. You don't need to be traditionally masculine/feminine to be trans. You don't need to do any changes to your body if you don't want to, but let's not block people who want these things from having them.

    I'm totally for medical transition to be monitored by professionals. I don't think it does justice to anyone to let everyone just transition medically without knowing the pros and cons beforehand or before really thinking about it. I also think that no matter what, there's always gonna be some doubt in our minds, so if we always had to be 1000% sure, we would never get anything done.

    All in all, I hate this article and what it tries to imply.
     
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  4. Athexant

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    I wholeheartedly agree. There is a fine balance between making transition more accessible to those who need it and essentially giving it away to whoever asks for it. I agree that we're not always 100% sure, and I don't think that's even a realistic goal to achieve.

    Yeah, the article was hurtful and damaging. I'm sorry that you had to deal with that today.
     
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  5. RainbowGreen

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    At least, I had fun arguing with completely ridiculous people on Facebook xD And hopefully, I convinced some people at the same time.
     
  6. Amanda F

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    Any and all hormone therapy should be prescribed and monitored by a qualified endocrinologist. This reduces the number of people who end up regretting doing it, and can ward off any complications which otherwise might not show up for years, after it's too late to do anything about the harmful effects. A good endocrinologist is pretty much a "must" for anyone seeking hormone therapy. Please, no one self medicate, the consequences can be disastrous!

    Mandy
     
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  7. Athexant

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    I agree with this notion completely. They have a medical degree and know how to read blood tests to see current hormone levels and prescribe the right amount for each individual's body. I also think that good endocrinologists are trained about transgender treatment, so they can recognize whether or not the individual has dysphoria and would benefit from the changes that hormones would bring.

    Also, even if the person is getting hormones through informed consent, they should do so through a qualified endocrinologist and not some place like Planned Parenthood. A licensed endocrinologist would still make sure that the individual has given serious thought to transitioning before prescribing hormones.
     
  8. Pret Allez

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    The cis hate us, so they will use anything. Meanwhile, we should stop carrying water for them by advocating weird transmedicalist stuff.

    This kind of thing is harmful to people who are late bloomers and take a long time to figure ourselves out. Not everyone experiences dysphoria in painfully and immediately clear ways. Sometimes, lettings us transition is precisely "essentially giving it away to whoever asks for it." That's what informed consent is.
     
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  9. Amanda F

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    Informed consent is a bit more than that. The "informed" part means that you are saying that you have all the medical and scientific knowledge to be making a [medical] decision, without the benefit of consulting a trained physician. In order to get what you want, you are claiming to have the information necessary to make medically sound decisions, which I assure you, you do not -- unless you are an endocrinologist. Hormones are dangerous, and the ringer is that if there is a problem, symptoms won't show up until it's too late to undo the damage -- 10, 20, 30 years on down the road.

    Also, "the cis" (who? The cis?) don't hate us. There are places in backwards parts of the country and the world, where the population in general hate us, but there are cities like Seattle and Portland where "the cis" don't even differentiate between cis and not cis. I'm not cis, and everyone knows it, but the many, many cis people I know all respect and like me (except for 2 pricks who nobody likes, so they don't count -- they'd get flattened by the crowd anyway, if either of them ever dissed me). Cis people are just people, just like trans people are just people. Some of them are assholes, but that's true on both sides of the fence.

    Wait a minute; you're from Seattle. Good God, what part of the city do you live in? Last I knew Seattle was just as gender/preference blind as Portland, Eugene, and Ashland Oregon. I live in Eugene, and I've been a trans girl here for a while now, and I've only twice had a "cis" come at me with ill intent, and both of those times, people nearby -- just the general public, took care of it (and it turned out to be a guy from out of town). I don't know what you do, but "the cis" here love me. I'm well known and popular, with lots of friends and no (real) enemies, and everybody knows I'm a trannie.

    I sometimes wonder if, under certain circumstances, we don't invite problems by expecting them. I know it works the other way. I always expect no problems, and express that in the way I act. I expect to be respected, and act like I am. I expect to be treated like a proper lady, and act like I will be. And I always treat people with respect and acceptance, unless they prove to deserve otherwise. But if we expect problems, if we are at all nervous or edgy, it telegraphs that vulnerable prey thing that the cave man in all of us responds to, and we get picked on. Maybe I'm a bit of a Pollyanna, but I think we should expect better, and maybe we'll get it. My father used to say, "Expect the best, prepare for the worst." Makes sense to me.

    Mandy
     
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  10. Pret Allez

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    I mean, yes I believe in medical supervision. I just don't think everyone should have to see a therapist and essentially convince them they are trans and beg for treatment. But at the same time, I have concerns about so much focus on detransitioning because it ultimately plays into the kind of gatekeeping cis people want.

    Yikes, this is difficult to respond to without derailing the thread. I've been through the process of informed consent already. Additionally, I have lived in Seattle for a year and a half, but I grew up in Montana, where I lived for a bit over 22 years of my life. My experience with transphobia includes physical intimidation and sexual harassment in the workplace. That's what informs my perspective. I didn't expect such experiences, but I learned those are very much in the realm of possibility for me now and in the future.
     
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  11. Chip

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    This is really the crux of the issue, and it's an absolute no-win, especially with adolescents. We can't deny effective treatment and care to adolescents who struggle daily with severe dysphoria and find it difficult to function in the world. And, at the same time, there are definitely some people -- whether it's 1% or 10% or 20% or whatever, no one knows -- who latch on to the idea that they are experiencing gender dysphoria, and see transitioning as the cure-all, when the issue they are experiencing may not be that they are trans at all. We know for certain that occurs, we just don't know how prevalent it is.

    And especially given that it is an essentially irreversible decision, especially with adolescents, we owe some level of appropriate evaluation. But when that evaluation becomes gatekeeping, and the person(s) offering the evaluations may have their own agendas or even lack of clinical discernment... then it becomes disastrous for those who are suffering on a daily basis.

    Looking at the history of psychology, there have always been things that people attach their unhappiness to. In the 1980s, it was repressed memories of sexual abuse. Many people who were depressed or unhappy came to believe that they were sexually abused, but didn't remember it, that this was the root of all their unhappiness, and many families were destroyed and people went to jail based on faulty memory recall. It was a clusterfuck. But it was also really bad for those who genuinely did have repressed memories of sexual abuse or even those whose memories weren't repressed. And in the end, the people who had pinned all of their unhappiness on this were no better off in the end.

    This is why, to me, it's a challenge navigating the issue of young people (in particular) who are identifying as trans, and I really see no good solution. Competency among those doing mental health assessments needs to be a lot better than it is. Resources for transfolk to get the care needed must improve. Religious bigots need to get a life and figure out how much their ignorance is impacting others. And, above all, we need more compassion for those struggling with dysphoria as well as with other mental health issues that may cause them to mis-identify themselves.
     
  12. smurf

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    From my understanding this is inaccurate for the large majority of young people.

    Hormone blockers are way different than hormone replacement therapy and once you stop those you go through puberty with little problem if you so choose. And most young people only transition by changing hair cuts and wardrobe. Most things that young people use to transition are, as far as I understand, completely reversible.
     
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  13. RainbowGreen

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    Well, you can go on actual hormones starting at like 14, so you would still be a teenager at that time, so yeah, Chip has a point.

    Nowadays, people have the chance to start hormones earlier since they are more informed about it. There's a minimum age to start hormones and it's different everywhere, but it's usually around 14-16. Now, is the majority of teenagers only transitioning socially and waiting to take hormones? I don't know. It's progressing so fast that when I came out in high school, it was unheard of. I was the first case in my high school. Now? There's a few cases in pretty much every high school since people are starting to come out earlier.

    All in all, we need more studies and more statistics to really draw any conclusions.
     
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  14. Mihael

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    And they might not be that kind of trans who needs medical transition. It's a frequent case that someone first identifies as binary trans or non-binary and wants to transition, to realise later that they are non-binary and/or don't need to transition all the way.

    Yeah! It's changing so fast! I didn't come out in high school... and it wasn't a thing to do so. It was fashionable to be gay, but no more than that.
     
    #14 Mihael, Dec 13, 2018 at 1:06 AM
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2018 at 1:08 AM
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  15. Mihael

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    Hormone blockers aren't completely reversible as far as I know. Aesthetic concerns aside, they might cause the reproductive organs to not develop they way they should in order for the individual to be fertile later. Anyway, I've seen contradictory statements about the safety of puberty blockers. But haircuts and clothes are completely safe :wink: At least that is good.
     
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  16. Amanda F

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    Hormone use is absolutely irreversible. Permanent physical changes begin with the very first dose, and if you start and then stop, it leaves your endocrine system in an unstable state that results in accelerated ageing and deterioration of all your major organs, effectively shortening your life. Blockers are different, those you can use for a while and then stop. Gatekeeping is an Urban Myth. If an endocrinologist denies hormone therapy, they are throwing away many thousands of dollars for ongoing supervision and care, but if they prescribe it wrongly, they can lose their license, so they are careful -- they are supposed to be. Any good endo should be more than willing to describe, in detail, why they would deny hormone therapy. If they don't, or if the explanation is just something like, "I just don't think it's right for you," get a second opinion. Counselors, shrinks, and endos are not making us beg for hormone therapy, they are acting appropriately within medical protocols to make sure that it isn't something else that is making us feel that we need to transition. Transitioning is NOT a choice! If it is right for you, you HAVE TO do it eventually, or you will spiral down into serious mental illness. Some old doctors, don't get the modern concept of sexuality. Use reasonably young GPs, counselors, shrinks and endos, and you will not run into supposed "gatekeeping."
    I have known kids as young as 5 being started on hormones, and have a little girl in Ireland who started at 13. Five is pretty young, and pretty rare, but in this case, it was so painfully obvious, to everyone, that this little boy was really a little girl, so after some significant testing, she started at 5. She's now 7, and a delightful little girl who will never have to shave (lucky kid).

    Pret, I don't know where you get the idea that cis people hate us so. Rednecks, hillbillys, religious fanatics, and other assholes hate us, and they're all cis, but they don't hate us because they're cis, they hate us because they're assholes. I have so many very good cis friends, all of whom would fight like savages for me, if ever I needed them to. Where I live, there is a nearly undetectable degree of anti-LGBTQ++ sentiment. Being gay, or trans, or virtually anything else is irrelevant here -- irrelevant! Hard to believe? Come visit. I could show you some really nice Karaoke clubs, and introduce you to a lot of genuinely good straight cis, and gay cis people, and some lesbians, gays, bis, and other transes. Your avatar is over the top stunning, BTW -- it's hard to concentrate when she's on the screen. As gorgeous as she is though, there's a look of concern on her face that I feel in the posts you have made. I feel like you're struggling more than you have to, and I want to see that look of concern go away. If you have concerns about gatekeeping, you are definitely seeing the wrong doctors. If you really feel like it's an "us and them" thing with "the cis," you're living in the wrong place. Really, I thought Seattle was a good place to be LGBT -- that's what I've heard from lots of people. Even so, there's Portland, Salem, Eugene, and Ashland, Oregon. You're young. If you are experiencing unpleasant things where you live, come to Eugene (better scout out a job first, housing is expensive). I think there's a city ordinance here against unpleasant things (lol). Seriously, at your age, there's no reason to stay someplace that doesn't suit you. I may have been wrong about Seattle, but I can assure you that Eugene is bereft of the things that seem to be causing you much stress right now. You should do something. Someone your age shouldn't have to be so concerned about such things. And we (the LGBTQ++s of the World) shouldn't have to live any differently than anyone else, and if there are places where that is possible, we should go there. I want you to be happy.

    Mandy
     
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  17. RainbowGreen

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    What? Actual hormones at 5? Not even blockers? Don't people realize that those are supposed to start puberty? Like, you should not have puberty at 5, so why give a child hormones at that age?

    13 is okay because you can actually have puberty at that age.
     
  18. tystnad

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    I don't want to get too involved in this discussion right now, so i'm only sharing some studies here: a recent large scale study in the Netherlands that showed that regret after transition is extremely rare (0.5%) and most of the time regret was not actual regret as in "i am not trans after all and i ruined my life with transitioning" but regret related to external factors such as discrimination and stigma. A similar research done in Sweden based on trans people between 1960 and 2010 showed that throughout those decades, an average of 2.2% of people ended up regretting transitioning - and that there was actually a significant decline in regret rates throughout the decades studied.
    the dutch study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29463477
    the swedish study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24872188
     
    #18 tystnad, Dec 13, 2018 at 12:30 PM
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  19. Amanda F

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    Actually, you are right. It was T blockers she was started on at 5, which stopped the male development, and she just naturally went girly. She's 7 now and her endo is considering starting actual hormones soon. I had to check. Sorry I got that wrong, I''m usually better at fact checking my posts.
    I think the numbers improved as the medical field learned how to better screen potential transition candidates, and as GPs stopped prescribing hormones, and turned it over to the endocrinologists. I red an article a couple of years back (sorry, no references) that said that those who actually regretted having transitioning had mostly self medicated, and was arguing strongly for people to not do that, but to use an endocrinologist. I've never met a trans person who regretted it, but I know there are a few. Another really good reason to use an endocrinologist.

    Mandy
     
  20. RainbowGreen

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    Yes, I agree with this and I already knew about the actual numbers being really low. (And the thing about most detransitionners doing it because of pressure) That's why I get so upset at people when they try to pull up the few cases it happens in and have them discredit us because of it.

    What I mean when I say that we lack studies is that everything is going so fast and we lack studies on many, many things relating to trans people. Like, what side effects can hormone blockers have? Or, what are the effects of the hormones on the body long term (like, I'm speaking elderly long term). None of that should keep anyone from transitioning, but I'm sure everyone one would benefit from all kinds of study being done on trans people.
     
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