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LGBT News Parents claim that teaching their children about LGBTQ+ issues is "against their principles"

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Nordland, Jan 31, 2019.

  1. Nordland

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    #1 Nordland, Jan 31, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  2. Andrew99

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    I think if their religion or views on gay sex education is to not be taught to their kids then I think we should respect that even if we don’t agree with it.
     
  3. brainwashed

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    From the Guardian article:
    Shah claimed her children were becoming “confused” about homosexuality

    I comment: This is why the students need to be taught by a professional and not by parents who basically propagate hate via Islam. Stamp out confusion with knowledge.

    From the article:
    She said: “We have nothing against Mr Moffat – we are as British as they come. We respect the British values …

    I comment:
    I didn't know people from the UK intrinsically followed Islam.

    From the article:
    but the problem is, he is not respecting our ethos as a community.

    I comment:
    Look what happened in Germany in the 30s. The community said Jewish people are bad. LGBT people are bad - they where made to wear pink triangles at the extermination camps.
     
  4. brainwashed

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    I disagree with you Andrew 100%.
     
  5. Rade

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    This is a very hot potato. I don't know much but within Islam people see homosexuality as a sin. Please don't get angry at me but someone I know told me this. So many people in their community are closeted and chose to abstain from same sex relationships so they can pray to Islam.
     
  6. Andrew99

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    [​IMG]
     
  7. Chiroptera

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    I disagree. Sex education is, precisely, about respect. They are free to believe that being gay is wrong, however, we live in a diverse society, and there are LGBT+ people everywhere, and they should be respected just like straight people. I fail to see how teaching that (that we are all equal and that everyone should be respected) is the same as not respecting their religion.

    Homophobia is not something you can defend while hiding behind "free speech" or "it's my opinion/religion" arguments. There are some things that aren't flexible like it's just a matter of opinion. Respect should be an universal concept, above all else. If they believe teaching kids to respect everyone is wrong, then, i'm sorry, but I don't think school should stop teaching kids about this important topic just because some parents are homophobics.

    Schools should promote diversity. Of course, that includes hearing the opinion of people of different orientations, beliefs, gender, origins, etc. But that also means that no one should be able to put their ideas above the others - diversity should be a core concept, always.

    Some things aren't relative. Should we avoid telling children that no human being should be submitted to torture, because some parents believe that torture is acceptable in some cases? Should we not tell children that the nazis lost WW2 and that they promoted various forms of prejudice, because some parents believe that their actions were justifiable? No, I don't think so. I think that some things aren't a matter of pure opinion of each individual when it comes to education: Respect and diversity are core values, and of extreme importance for an education that aims to prepare the students for critical thinking and acting in society, instead of training robots who know how to calculate things and work without questioning anything.

    I also think it is important to remember that school is a part of society. If these parents don't want to talk about the LGBT+ community in their homes, then that's their choice. However, their kids will meet LGBT+ people outside of their homes. In the market, in courses they take, in the park, in their jobs, everywhere. And school isn't an exception. School should be place where people are exposed to diversity, so they can learn how to respect others and deal with it. If school is blinded to diversity, that will only make these people unprepared to act in real life when they are confronted with differences outside of their "home bubble". And they will be confronted - Diversity is a fact in society. So school plays an important role in teaching people how to understand and respect this fact.

    Finally, I think sometimes we invert the situation on these cases. You say we should respect their views, even if we don't agree with them. But, isn't it the opposite? They should respect diversity, even if they don't like it. They should respect the fact that their children will met diverse people, regardless if they want or not, regardless if school teaches about that or not, because it is a fact in society.

    School shouldn't bend to prejudices, and, most importantly, it shouldn't ignore that it is a part of society, and that contents on the different subjects are only important and significant when connected to reality and the context that the students live in. To ignore that is to ignore reality, and when that happens, school is good only for training people that aren't prepared for critical thinking, only to obey and work without question.

    EDIT: I'll also remember the work of Paulo Freire here, in which he says education is never neutral, and always has a purpose. Considering that, I prefer to build and defend an education that promotes diversity, respect and inclusion, than an education that bows to prejudice and reinforces oppression.
     
  8. Andrew99

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    Your write it is about respect. That means everyone. If they don’t want their kids learning sex eduacation lgbtq or not that is their right as parents.
     
    #8 Andrew99, Feb 4, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  9. Andrew99

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    You’re right*
     
  10. brainwashed

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    It is not their right as parents. Parents do not have the right to teach their kids hate? Lets look at this subject from a different angle. There's been a measles out break in the Pacific Northwest (Oregon and Washington Sates of USA). Why? Because parents are not getting their children inoculated. Measles can be bad news and cause all kinds of health issues present and down the road.

    Do parents who withhold measles inoculations from their kids have the right to put other people's kids at risk via measles? No.

    If parents want to have their kids be a part of society then there are basic requirements they must meet. If parents do not agree they should home school their kids - basically isolate them from society.
     
    #10 brainwashed, Feb 4, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2019
  11. Chiroptera

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    Why do you consider that to be their right? Should someone be allowed to freely promote hate? Should the lack of respect be respected?

    Kids aren't products, and the parents don't "own" their children. As a parent, I don't think one has the right to teach their kids anything they want, like a family disconnected from society.

    Some things are up to discussion - should we teach our kids genetics? Why? Why not? How are we going to teach it? Are we going to teach it with what level of depth?

    Some, on the other hand, aren't. Respect and human rights are base concepts, and should always be present in education. A parent doesn't have the right to deny that to their kids.

    According to the United Nations:

    Source: http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

    I also partially disagree with brainwashed, as I don't think homeschool should be an option (I agree with the other parts of his post). Education is essentially a social activity, and school is part of that. Homeschooling basically denies the social part, and denies the child an extremely important part of learning - recognizing the diversity of ideas and people who make up the world.

    I repeat: We live in a society, and there are common concepts who can't be discarded if we want to promote peace and dignity. For instance, you can't simply decide that the nazis are right and there is a superior race, and therefore you are going to teach that to your kid. That is absurd, violent and against the core concepts that form the human rights.

    Again, not everything is relative. Human rights are (or should be) the foundation of our society, and therefore need to be discussed in education. Considering this, we need to remember that education has planning and purpose, and it isn't a matter of pure opinion and belief, without any discussion. "Oh, I think like X, therefore my kid will learn like X, regardless of how society works!". That's not how it should be. We live together, in a connection of diverse people, countries, ideas, beliefs, etc.

    Respect isn't a gaseous concept, like "we need to accept everything, including disrespect". Respect implies that some ideas and rights are universal, and one can't simply deny that to their children, as if they lived in a different world. Tolerance and respect doesn't imply accepting intolerance and disrespect, like free speech doesn't mean you are free to spread whatever lies and violent ideas you have.
     
  12. Rade

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    In my humble opinion children should be taught all types of sexual activity. I'm a dad of 3 and I have no issue with schools teaching my children about gay sex. Children have a right to know!! Please no hate....
     
  13. I'mStillStanding

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    Well growing up in the south (USA Bible Belt lol) it’s always been unacceptable to teach homosexuality here still in school. They block clubs at school boards for high school students, there is no protection, and it’s just not acceptable to discuss it. I think it’s important to not single out Islam as the only faith that has those who continue to embrace the teaching of homosexuality as a sin. Primarily because there is such an issue with Xenophobia (and often directed at people who practice the Islamic faith).

    Anyway I agree, it’s improtant to teach about the LGBTQ+ community. But not just in a sexual education context... in history as well. Some parents choose for their children to not partake in sex education classes where I’m at, if the topic is discussed then in history well it will open the door for the discussion for sure!

    You really can’t force parents to raise children and teach them specific things... and to do that would create a splippery slope for sure...
     
  14. Andrew99

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    I don’t think they are necessarily teaching their kids hate. However I just feel like you guys are discriminating against Muslims. Like isn’t that what the story was about? I’m confused. Didn’t it say it was mostly Muslim at this school?
     
  15. Andrew99

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    I don’t know. I just don’t feel like they are spreading hate. I feel like they are just practicing what there religion teaches. I am not saying that I think gay sex education should not be taught in schools. But if the parent don’t want their kids learning it then I think that we have to respect that.

    Also on the topic of homeschooling. I think it is great. At least it was for me. I only lasted one semester in regular high school before switching to online. I was not in a good place the first semester in regular school and I even tried to end my life. Leaving was the best move I ever made. I actually became more social and I finished a year and a half early. I don’t regret my decision. I was verbally abused and harassed even by a teacher I talked to maybe two people. I’m glad that I had made the switch. If I hadn’t I probably would have died.
     
  16. I'mStillStanding

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    I personally think the topic brings out the opposite sides of the same coin. I’ll explain what I mean with reference to Christianity. That’s what faith I was raised in and the predominant in my area... and like I said you really could do this article on this faith as well.

    On one side you have a group of people who use a few verses to really discriminate, and while you may not agree with the word, and encourage hate against the LGBTQ+ community. While these verses are there, they aren’t more important than the teachings on love. In fact, love is the greatest commandment. So to take these verses and single them out without the full context of the rest of scripture, it does a disservice to the importance of acceptance and charity and love that is a huge theme in the actually teachings of Christ!

    On the other side you have a group of people who use the same few verses (and those who choose to manipulate a faith’s teachings for personal justification is prejudices) to really not see the beauty of a faith! You don’t have to believe in it to be able to get something positive from it! And there is a lot of positive things you can get from scripture especially the teachings of Christ (the sermon on the mount being my personal favorite).

    I guess my point is I don’t think either of the points are wrong or right. Schools, especially any school that receives any public funding, should be required to diversify its education to be more inclusive. Not just LGBTQ+ but more accurate when it comes to social issues and such. This can only happen if all voices are at the table, and come with respect. That also includes different faiths!
     
  17. Chiroptera

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    When you say you don't want your children to learn about diversity, you are certainly not teaching them about inclusion and respect. I think you are looking at things the wrong way. When we talk about respect towards everyone, it is presupposed that we are also talking about inclusion and diversity. Furthermore, I don't think education is something that depends solely on the personal views of each parent. I repeat my questions: If a parent wants to teach their children that diversity is bad and that they should hate LGBT+ people, should they be allowed to do so? In my opinion, no, that shouldn't be up to parents.

    Education should be about preparing the students for life, and not only about repeating contents and subjects without any connection to society and the context that students live in. Diversity is a fact - by denying the possibility of learning and interacting with diversity, you would be denying your child an important part of education. I don't think that should be an option.

    We should listen to parents, of course, and their opinions matter. But that doesn't mean they have the final say on how children should be educated. I don't think a parent has the right of denying their children the right to learn about human rights, the same way I don't think a parent should be allowed to put their children in a school that teaches them that vaccines are a way for the government to mind-control you and that the earth is flat. There are some ideas that simply need to be part of education (respect and diversity, in this case) and others that have no place there (absurd conspiracy theories).

    Not allowing parents to fill the mind of their child with these ideas isn't to disrespect them. On the contrary, we need to respect the children's right to have acess to quality education.
    I'm not questioning their religion. I think i would be discriminating against them if I said all muslims are anti-gay, which would be an absurd statement. A quick search on Google will show that there are a good number of muslims who are openly LGBT+, and even some muslim groups that are promoting LGBT+ rights.

    In other words, the prejudice of the parents isn't justified by their religion. It is perfectly possible to be muslim and to accept diversity.

    In this case, I fail to see how we need to accept the parents idea that we can't tell children that being LGBT+ is ok. Again, respect presupposes respect. To build a society where people are respected and diversity is celebrated, we can't deny children the opportunity to learn and see diversity past the wall of prejudice some parents build. Religion doesn't justify prejudice, especially since there are many groups inside religions that promote diversity.
    It is good to hear that it worked for you. However, this is just one case, and even if it worked (I'm glad it did!), we can't use a single example to say it works for everyone, or even for most people. Homeschool can also be an opportunity for parents to, like I said, fill the mind of their children with stupid ideas (anti-vaccines, anti-diversity, flat earth, etc. etc.), and I don't think parents should be allowed to do that.

    Children aren't objects, and parents aren't owners to do to their children as they please. That doesn't mean their opinion doesn't matter - It does, and it is extremely important to have an open communication between school, parents and students. A good education only works properly if the parents are involved, participating, opinating, exchanging ideas. However, there are some ideas that need to be considered the foundation of society and education (again - human rights are part of this foundation), and we simply can't deny that to children.

    You are right, but prejudice can't be allowed to prevail. Again, if teachers were saying "being muslim is wrong!", then I would totally agree that is unacceptable and parents would be totally right to be mad. I'm also not saying religion has no place in school. On the contrary, I think it is important to talk to the students about the different faiths and allow them to express themselves. Diversity also includes the diversity in faith!

    However, once again, like I said, what is being discussed here isn't the exclusion of their faith on the schools. Their prejudice isn't something common to everyone in their religion, and thus, they can't use their religion to deny their children acess to a education that promotes diversity.

    It's like the people who say "My family believes in X, so I don't want teachers talking about Y in the classroom!". I don't think we are disrespecting the family if we talk about Y too. On the contrary, they need to understand that diversity and respect can only be obtained when we talk about X, Y and Z, with everyone being able to express themselves.

    TL;DR: I don't think respect and expression are obtained by silencing a subject. Diversity is a fact, and children need to learn about it. And if a student disagrees with what is being said, that's fine - let him/her express their point of view, then let others do that too, and we can go on exchanging ideas and discussing important themes. What can't happen is the complete exclusion of a theme because of prejudice.
     
  18. Andrew99

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    While I see where you are coming from, I just don’t feel like I’m getting my point across. I will now withdraw from this conversation.

    Have a great day everyone.
     
  19. Kira

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    I have to agree with Chiroptera on this one. As someone raised in the bible belt, I missed out on a lot of important things, including much of my own education. I didn't have sex ed, and for the students who did it was sex segregated and only covered info relevant to straight students... along with the obligatory "don't do it or you'll get sick and die". Here I am on a LGBT forum for years surrounded by people who know far more than I will.

    I first learned being gay was even a thing around high school when it was used as an insult, or treated as a "mental disease". I was told that it was "evil" and when asked why I could only get "my dad said the preacher said that Jesus said that God said so!". I didn't get a secular education either to say the least, and I was coming to terms with my atheism while learning just how gay I was. I had become everything my area despised, and more. I was thrown into years of depression because my area first taught me that I didn't exist, and then continued that I was an "abomination". I wasn't even home schooled or in a private christian school, this was the public school.

    I've fought my whole life to become a better person in spite of my upbringing. A real education should help a child grow and learn, not to contain them and prevent them from asking questions.
     
  20. midnightt

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    I believe it is important schools normalize the LGBT community and provide some type of support. Imagine you're a Muslim at a nearly all Muslim school and you're gay. Chances are you are depressed and maybe even suicidal and if you can get even a little bit of support it can help so much. I had a counselor at the first high school I went to and she cared so much about the LGBT students at the school. She had a pride flag in her room and helped start the GSA (and even a weekly LGBT support group). She was someone I knew I could trust and that made me feel a lot better. It sucked having to go to a different high school. At my next high school I felt there was not much acceptance and I heard gay defamatory language on nearly a daily basis. It made my depression worsen.