Is there a difference? I've definitely noted a few on EC alone, at least from the male side of the coin. The older guys seem to have a stronger sense of identity regarding their sexuality, as gay men, while the younger crowd seems to see themselves as just "regular guys" who are attracted to others of the same sex. There's the fact that a lot of those who grew up during the eighties are a lot more conscious of the horrors of HIV and the tired gay tropes, whereas today, things like diversity in gay men and medical advances are taken for granted. Same with marriage equality. Finally, regarding clubs, it seems like a lot of older guys either place importance on their central role in gay male history and culture, while a lot of people my age are content to join a school club, use an online app to find potential partners, or even meet others simply by being out and about. I've heard of older gay men lament the end of a strong LGBT community, that the younger generation will assimilate and we'll no longer be able to tell who is who, as sexual perceptions are relaxed and rights gained. They're disappointed that the younger crowd is losing touch of their history, and miss out on a lot of hard won gains and struggles that made it possible to live more open and secure than those who came of age before them. One of my friends offline is in his forties, and sometimes I think we're living in totally different eras, since a lot of what comes out of him has references to a different time and place than I'm familiar with. A trans person from another site said something that seemed related, that in the past, a lot more trans men and women would assimilate to strict gender norms, whereas today, there are a lot more "butch" trans women, feminine trans men, along with non-binary identities, who come in all sorts of sexual variations. Bisexual stereotypes and biphobia are still serious issues, but at least they're finally being addressed, both within and outside of the LGBT community, if such a monolithic community even exists today. Someone once said that the only reason we're still united at all is because we have similar goals, but once these goals were achieved, we'd go our separate ways. Once everyone has what they want, is there even a reason to work together, at least to the extent that we've traditionally seen in the past? Obviously, being somewhat of a minority even within LGBT circles, and affected by many different forms of oppression, I'm interested in working together with others who do as well, and I only learned recently that the bisexual community has had strong relations with the transgender, feminist, people of color, and disabled persons movements from the beginning, which I think is great, especially since I could technically fall into each of these categories and feel represented. If this offends anyone, my sincerest apologies, since that wasn't my intention at all. This was more of a stream-of-consciousness type ramble than anything scientific or serious in mind. Having been born and raised in a conservative town in 1990, and discovering this part of myself rather late (~22), it does seem as being in the middle of crossroads, with major changes taking place every day, though couldn't the same be said of any other time period in history? One thing I'll say is that contact with the LGBT community has exposed me to far more different types of people than I'd have the chance to meet otherwise. The diversity is definitely one of my favorite parts, second only to the loosening of gender norms, so even if I feel a minority, I know there are others who do as well, yet we're welcomed for the most part. Sometimes, I'm reminded of a dysfunctional family that constantly bickers, but at the end of the day is there for each other... that's a perfect analogy, I think.
I've definitely noticed that, and while I respect that a lot of older people do feel that it's bad we're losing our tight community, I also want to be able to live my life as me. I don't want to be defined by something that doesn't define me; I don't want to be shoved into a little pigeon-hole and a social position that I didn't ask for just because someone thinks I'm not being a good enough gay. And I'm the least of the concerns given that my only disadvantage is my sexuality. And yes, it's likely that the LGBT community will loosen, but that's okay; it means our social circles won't just be driven by the need to survive. And we can't be fully separated, anyway; how the hell are we gay people going to live without other queers?
If the end of a 'strong LGBT community' means a satisfactory level of acceptance, acknowledgment and most importantly safety amidst the larger majority then I welcome it. The history and struggles of those who fought for rights we didn't always have shouldn't be forgotten. But obviously the point of that was advancing toward a better future we can share an equal part to everyone else in. Living in the past isn't helping anything or anyone when there's still so much to do. I do think the bonds between us are more than just a temporary common goal at any rate. Uniting against hatred and intolerance on a larger scale might of been what originally brought us together. But I know the day is never going to come when I no longer need or want the companionship of somebody else who understands what it is to be a boy who likes other boys. The LGBT community progressively integrating more and more with everybody else shouldn't be interpreted as us dissolving and becoming weaker. Unbiased acceptance regardless of race, religion, sexual preference and whatever else is probably the single greatest core principle we've always defended, isn't it? If anything, the more people inspired by those beliefs, the more relationships forged across minorites, and majorities.. the stronger we become in theory. Past, present, and future, I love the LGBT community and everything it stands for. But there's another community each of us rightfully belongs to first and foremost. its called humanity ^^
Interesting observations! As one of the older crowd who is still in the process of coming out, my feeling of identifying as a gay man might seem stronger because of years of not identifying as a straight man. There was an earlier thread about the envy that some of the "later in life" crowd feel towards the younger ones. I'd say it's less envy than it is appreciation and admiration for the way that for the younger crowd, being gay so often appears to be a much more seamless and well-integrated part of your lives. I know that's not always the case, and there are plenty of younger people who are struggling with identity and acceptance. But when I was 16 or 18 or 20, being gay pretty much automatically made you part of a completely separate, isolated community. Wanting to be part of the larger community as a whole, for me, was a big factor in my decision to enter into a straight marriage and basically try to pretend I wasn't gay. I'd love to see a day where we all had such of a sense of belonging with the community as a whole that being gay was as unremarkable as being a ginger vs. a brunette, or having blue vs. brown eyes, and we were all so utterly accepted that having a specifically gay community was something for entertainment purposes and nothing else. But for the older crowd, we spent many years putting on a straight show, because we felt that we HAD to in order to be accepted. That probably makes us identify more strongly as gay, because we finally feel like we belong somewhere.
Personally, I don't see the community ever dying. Even if we perfectly merge with the larger majority, and achieve absolute acceptance the LGBT community won't go away. It isn't just going to magically disappear. It will just be less imperative to join. People won't feel like they've been forced to be a part of that community, and they won't feel isolated from the majority. Think about Civil Rights. I know there is still racism, but it's absolutely nothing compared to what it was a 100 years ago, and even still a lot of areas have a really strong Black community. Even as the racism dies off slowly with every new generation, the people still stay together. I think the LGBT community will be the same way. We'll be there to welcome anyone who wishes to join, but we'll no longer be taking in the people that everyone else threw away. We'll just be there for those who wish to embrace that part of themselves deeply. So that's just my random thought on this for the moment. I hope it makes as much sense as I think it does Oh and seriously folks, let's never forget what so many people have been through getting this fight to where it is today I personally hope it winds up in the history books. <3
To the OP: that was no ramble, it was a well-written and thoughtful observation of the changes that have transpired, for all of us, regardless of age. My take on it, oddly enough from a Jewish perspective (the eternal minority), is that a minority will forever feel the need to associate with other members of that minority. Despite the massive changes taking place, acceptance will, I think, never be as complete or as widespread as we would like it to be. Even if we were totally accepted, and homophobia were treated with the same disdain as racism, there will always be a need for us to get together with others like us. Call it "tribal" (an accusation often levelled at Jews), or call it what you will, but it is normal to want to associate with those like oneself. These associations can be facilitated by the community organizations that persist to this day...or not. Nevertheless, I guarantee that coming together will happen no matter what.
Hm. Not sure if its a product of the EC population or my individual life experiences as someone who was never really closeted, but a chunk of what you post in this section almost seems the opposite of what I see as an older gay man. To me it often seems that a lot of the 'younger generation' set themselves apart due to their sexuality, treating it as THE defining characteristic about themselves and considering themselves anything but 'regular guys'. In fact that state of NOT being a 'regular guy', of not just blending into the 'normal' crowd seems to often be a source of major stress and pain here. The younger guys seem to have a lot less confidence and self-assertiveness then I remember having (or seeing in others) in my 20s. Then again, that may be a product of EC itself as a support forum impacting the cross-section of the population I'm seeing. Or faulty memory on my part. Not sure. As far as issues of HIV are concerned - have a big chunk of your friends and relations die off while years go by with nothing being done or it being treated as something you 'deserve' and see how that colors your perceptions on things. Medical advances are all very well, but they've been going on for a long time and have yet to come up with a cure. Treating HIV as a non-issue is rather premature at this point, IMHO. While I can see where you're coming from re clubs, at the same time it often seems to me that younger people spend a huge amount of time angsting about those same clubs, and apps, and 'out and about' encounters or 'crushes', often to the point of apparently being in great distress and pain as a result. Distress and pain that neither I nor my friends and associates went thru when you just went to a bar, maybe got sex out of it (or not), and went on about your business (if you both hit it off, it might turn into more than that one night of sex. Or not). From my perspective this often seems simpler than all the hoops that the younger guys seem to spend a huge amount of time jumping through. Younger gays also seem to want to find 'the one' on the first try and sometimes seem to want to have a clone of themselves rather than a human being with differences that might actually complement them. Although, I think that is probably happening in straight culture as well. I rather blame the apps and dating sites and such which apparently let you so specify what you are looking for that a mindset develops of either rejecting everyone while waiting for 'the one', or being rejected repeatedly - with various unpleasant emotional consequences, because everyone else is doing it. As far as the community is concerned, I'm more inclined to agree with the sentiments expressed here that as acceptance grows in the broader society, then the community is going to change, possibly becoming less clearly defined in some respects or changing its focus, possibly in ways that the 'older warriors' have a hard time seeing. In any case, I fully expect that, as far as the 'younger guys' are concerned, your time will come Wait a couple of decades and you will probably find that the concerns and issues of what will then be the 'younger gays' will seem just as different (and possibly disconcerting) from what you're used to as the differences that you see now between you and the 'older generation'. My 2c worth, Todd
well ofcourse, they've lived longer than us, they've had more time, they've had more experiences lived. Theres no rule book on how someone is suppose to accept themselves, we arent clones. thats because its more convenient, not all people of the older age were making history, the majority of them were hiding. I dont understand why the 'older ones', say this, wasnt that the whole point of fighting for the future rights of the LGBT, so we werent treated different and being held to a false stigma? or the freedom to be what we wanted to be? this one im not even gonna argue because its true, Ive read alot of posts on this site that can prove it. I guess that really is the only thing that can be held against us, but then again, this can be said for anyone regardless of age
OP: This post is really well-written; you got your points across just fine. As for me, I think that change should be gradual. Slowly assimilating to the world at large is fine with me, so long as gays, trans, etc. are pretty much guaranteed a somewhat accepting world for them to live in, with opportunities to succeed, just like everyone else. Acceptance is what I think our main goal should be. This community, IMO, was never that tight-knit. So many people in one subsection of the population... cue the infighting! Different political views, different backgrounds, different cultures, different opinions on how many people should be included in "The Acronym", and other differences can drive wedges in any community.
My experience is different. There are a lot of older gay men for whom being gay is just one rather small aspect of who they are. They don't identify with activism, the club or bar scene, pride events, or much of anything else. They're just people who go about their lives and happen to be gay. And, by contrast, there are plenty of young (late teens/early 20s) gay men I know who strongly identify with gay culture, the club scene, pride events, and are very involved in gay activism. Regardless of age, the militant, activist types tend to be the sort that I generally avoid hanging out with , because they can be militant, overly politically correct, and annoying. They, on the other hand, probably find my group of friends to be incredibly boring because we *aren't* interested in those sorts of things. The point being, I don't think it's a valid generalization to say that the majority of older gay men fit into one category, or the majority of younger gay men fit into a different category. In any case, my experience in working with a lot of people of many different ages is that there isn't any generalized pattern.
Well, of course this isn't going to apply to everyone, since it's based entirely on my own personal observations. I'm not trying to generalize two very diverse groups of people at all, only to understand these phenomena, and less for matching for accuracy. My main questions, then, are how has society changed, the community grown, and LGBT relation to both? Twenty years ago, if a straight man heard the word "lesbian" he probably immediately thought of flannel shirts and shaved heads and politics, whereas today, it's probably more common for some to think of college-aged girls making out at a party, or certain porn stars taking part in girl-girl scenes, which didn't exist as stereotypes then, in addition to the aforementioned image. One member in his sixties commented how when he was growing up, "gay" wasn't even a thing or talked about, whereas for me, it was most commonly used as a slur against other boys, when very few of us had any idea of its true meaning or origins. Even watching Queer as Folk, which aired in the early 2000s, I thought it was a completely different world than the one in 2013, when I first started watching, very stereotypical. Likewise, I don't hear the whole old "U-Haul" and "what second date" jokes thrown around too much from the younger crowd; same with "fag hag" or "fruit fly", since a gay person can be anyone's friend these days. I think changing perceptions, thanks to the media and more people coming out is dispelling myths that all gay men, to list one example, are wealthy, white, and flamboyant. Take someone like Rob Halford, who only came out in 2008, and consider how many other openly queer fans and artists exist in the metal community today, when they were almost unheard of decades ago. How would a non-binary transgender, or a pansexual, have identified in the 70s or 80s? I have a hard time relating 100% to the gay male or lesbian experiences, but at the same time, since resources are all around me, I'm forced to learn a thing or two, so I feel I'm still a part of the community, even if an outlier. These terms are still fairly recent, but the information for someone who has an internet connection is definitely out there for anyone to look up. And I often wonder what the world will look like when I'm older, around 2030-2050, but then remember that reality rarely turns out exactly how we imagined it to. I'd like to think I'd be one of those older folk on the "cutting edge", learning about the newest discoveries, advances, and terminology, but things don't always work that way, do they? Between the historical readings, modern observations, and predictions, it can feel like I've lived in several different eras!
