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Non binary (discussion 2)

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by And it exploded, Jan 21, 2018.

  1. And it exploded

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    I've had 3 of these discussion posts and there really fun. I wanna do one on nonbinary genders now. I'll open with my take, please don't kill me.
    In my eyes non binary is a lot like religion, I don't believe in it but you gotta respect it otherwise you'll come off as a dick, and you probably won't get anywhere anyway. If you what me to call you they or zer or whatever I'll do it. However I don't think there's any factual basis for the existence of non binary genders. Yes there are intersex people, it's not a gender it's a biological fuck up. Most intersex people live as male or female. I mean I was born with cmt (google it) is that a gender? (That's a joke don't answer it) oh yeah dont even get me started on how non binary people (and other types of people as well) think gender is a """"feeling"""" it's not. I mean I'm a binary trans person, I didn't just wake up one day like "I wanna be a boy." No sane person wants to be trans, it fucking sucks. You don't just """"feel"""" like one gender one day and another the next day. You're trivializing the experiences of actual trans people. We all feel more feminine or masculine sometimes. Congratulations you're a human being, you're not special. What's even worse is that if you feel the way I do everyone in the lgbt community automatically thinks you're the devils anus, as I'm sure some of you now do. You're not the dictator of everyone's opinions. I'm sorry but it pisses me off when people try to silence others because. "ouch my feelings" I don't care how transphobic you are or how much you don't think I'm a boy, I'll defend your right to speak. Sure, I'll hate you, but I won't send hords of people to tear you off of the internet. Unless you're directly promoting violence and which case bye bye That was A bit more angry then intended but oh well. I'm taking a big risk by doing this. Again, please don't kill me.
     
  2. SomecallhimTim

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    The nonbinary people I know do experience dysphoria and I've spent a lot of time talking to them about gender. It seems pretty real to me based on what they've said.
     
  3. Secrets5

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    I thought the same about nb and religion, you don't have to believe but don't be an ass to another persons individual belief.

    Personally, I do see gender as a spectrum. Neurologically speaking, *from the most masculine-male brain to the most feminine-female brain, if we could account for all humans. However, the question is whether or not everything else in between is *significant enough to be a new labelled gender. For the most part at least, I think not, as that would mean a new gender for each person.

    So, I do think you need the two 'male' and 'female', but since 'non-binary' is relatively new and with social-justice/feminism getting mixed with the science/neurology side, researching if it's significant enough (which in science is more than a 50% difference from the existing criteria) to create a new label will be difficult (especially with Trump and SJWs both banning the word 'evidence'). One would also have to consider the sex involved, as in primary sex characteristics. With the exception of intersex which isn't significant as it's less than 5% (anything below 5% isn't significant enough in terms of when we describe what a human is unless we go into very specific details - I've described this simply), people either have a penis and vagina. We can account for binary trans as that's going from one to the other, but in regards to the primary human function - which is to procreate the next generation (one doesn't have to, of course) - what would suggest a person's mind needs to have both or neither in regards to fulfilling this basic/primitive human function? I don't think we've evolved so far that we've moved past this primitive function. If you want my personal opinion, I put more of a Schrodinger's-cat situation on the whole non-binary as a new gender(s). It might be, it might not be. Even if it is, I don't think it has anything to do with gender expression and roles that are purely constructed (like boys liking blue, girls liking pink - before Hitler, who decided pink was too gay for boys, it was the opposite).

    *With these in mind, I propose three categories. Male, non-binary, female. So those who, despite not being the "most masc. or fem. brain", can still identify with the binary they closest fit, and those in the middle can identify with the middle without an excess of words. Just like how not all men are the same and not all women are the same, if non-binary is to exist as a gender, not all of them have to have the exact same experiences (neurological or otherwise) to be classified as such.

    It depends on how much you believe in a medical or social model of your sense of self. If you believe in a social model, then it's how you see yourself in regards to society and no research/medical professionals can say otherwise. If you believe in a medical model, then it is up to doctors/psychologists/scientists to determine what you are. This in itself doesn't have to be 'binary' there can be varying degrees one believes in the medical or social model and there are models that combine the two. (sorry, this paragraph has been heavily influenced by the fact I've been learning a lot about medical and social models in my communications and sociology lectures).
     
    #3 Secrets5, Jan 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  4. StormyVale

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    So as a person who is nonbinary, I wanted to respond (and educate, not stone the original poster) because many people don't understand what they haven't experienced.

    I don't discount that nonbinary can kind of seem like a religion where you believe in it or you don't... but for a long time even binary transgender people really weren't thought to be very common or a thing...

    The original poster said that people use the term "feels" or "feeling" when referring to gender or how they experience their gender. I agree that it can make it seem like nonbinary people are uncertain of gender or just experiencing stereotypical emotions associated with certain binary sexes/gender roles assigned to man and woman. But if you think further into it, "feel" is being used more colloquially and not literal. Meaning that the person has experience of the internal sense of gender being male, female, both, neither, etc. So feel isn't accurate but is often the easiest accessible language for expressing how someone is experiencing a new sensation.

    "No sane person wants to be trans, it fucking sucks" - original poster
    Well no one really wants to be nonbinary in the trans community either, because many people don't believe we exist.
    Nonbinary people are not making less of the trans experience,we are expanding language of how people experience gender to fit our unique experiences... we are not trivializing it. People who make attack helicopter jokes are....

    Not every nonbinary person has shifts in their internal sense of gender... however, I do; so I will respond to your comment, which I have often heard, about waking up "feeling" one gender one day, and a different gender on the next day. Just as binary transgender people (ftm, mtf) don't choose to experience being a different gender than their gender assigned at birth, neither do nonbinary people. It is not about rejecting social gender roles like some TERFs would say. It is that our internal sense of our gender changes . Some days I am male, some days I am female, and some days am both. I have used the word "Feeling" before to express the same concept in previous posts on other threads. However, It Is because the word "feeling" is an easy way to use the language we currently have to express your brain telling you that your experience is contradictory to your current physical form that is regarded female or male by society.

    And despite the original posters post being passionate and possibly inflammatory of tone, I am glad that he is willing to respect the pronouns of nonbinary people like myself and be open to discussion even if he doesn't necessarily believe in nonbinary identities
     
  5. And it exploded

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    Wow I thought I'd get crusified lol. I actually argree with you on the feeling thing now that I think about it more. It's hard to describe why I "feel" like a man. I just didn't really get it, and I was also in a pissy mood that day. It's pretty up in the air honestly but I'm going to lean towards 2 genders until proved otherwise.
     
    #5 And it exploded, Jan 22, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018