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LGBT News Mass Shooting at Orlando Gay Nightclub

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by OnTheHighway, Jun 12, 2016.

  1. 741852963

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    I appreciate my comments may appear hateful at first, after all they are motivated by anger (and boy am I angry).

    But no, it is not hatred. It is criticism of a system that leads to so many injustices, and the iron-walled defence of that institution that prevents progress and change (for our community, the public at large, and the religion).

    I have no hatred for the people who choose to practice Islam, and see many positive aspects to the religion (much like any religion, and I am particularly appreciative of the rich art and culture involved). And I value free speech and freedom of religion where it does not harm others. THAT is the crux here. Voicing homophobia, racism, sexism, ableism through the extremely powerful medium of organised religion (where ideas are spread like wildfire and uniformity of belief is encouraged and enforced) is toxic, and no matter how "non-violent" it is, it will lead to violence.

    That has to be discussed and put on the table. But it isn't. Never. Because politicians, journalists and the public alike are told this is "unacceptable". That this is "bad PR", that this is "disrespectful", or in this instance "Islamophobic".

    I know many are uncomfortable with the idea of "freedom of speech" being curtailed, but when those words do damage (or have the potential to) they must be stopped. If I verbally abuse a stranger in the street, that is quite rightly a crime (harassment or assault). If I denied the Holocaust to a Holocaust survivor, that would quite rightly be a crime. So yes, freedom of speech does have it's limits.

    Despite what many (Christian extremists particularly) suggest, nobody is suggesting a 1984 "thought crime" situation where people cannot think what they want. I believe people are welcome to think homophobic, racist, sexist you name it thoughts in the privacy of their own mind. I do not accept that they have an unchallengeable right to spread those thoughts, particularly to impressionable minds. And even if they do have that right, they most certainly do not have the right to absolve themselves of any responsibility if those words do eventually lead to violence and discrimination in others. Because it is reasonably foreseeable that they would do so.

    No, I stand by that when you have a minority or oppressed group who cannot choose the way they are (be it LGBT people, a racial minority, or women) - then their rights must trump that of a "chosen" or "voluntary" minority like a religion when there is a contest.
     
  2. guitar

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    Re: Orlando Florida gay club shooting

    Oh my god, that's unreal! I'm so glad you're safe. I can't imagine how heartbroken and possibly traumatized you must be after this. (*hug*)
     
  3. AwesomGaytheist

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    The headline was printed in 1 1/2 inch font:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. Blackbirdz

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    I know hindsight is 20/20, but it's just sad that the police waited 3 hours before they stormed the building. People were dying in the meantime. Eddie was sending out text messages well before 5AM that expressed the urgent need for immediate intervention rather than negotiation. They knew a lot of people had already been shot too. I wonder how many of them bled out during those three hours that could have been saved if they were rushed to the hospital.
     
    #224 Blackbirdz, Jun 13, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016
  5. Skaros

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    I heard on the news it turned into a hostage situation, so they had to wait for the right time until they could storm the building.
     
  6. ForNarnia

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    I can't believe how unaffected by this my friends and family are. I had assumed that straight people would feel the same sense of loss and outrage at this, but they just kind of sigh, go 'oh that's sad' and move on. :/
     
  7. bookreader

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    Maybe they have a different way to cope with this.
     
  8. Systems

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    I completely agree with 741852963. Homophobia is the root cause of violence against queer people, and verbal homophobia and institutionalized oppression are the main contributors to the totality of homophobia, and encourage and justify violence against queer people, whether it's physical, mental, social, or economic.

    Religion is the biggest source of homophobia, and I refuse to accept that the violence it breeds is okay.

    When a member of a privileged group says "not all of us are like that", it misses the point. It doesn't matter that not all Muslims are mass murderers. Few people people believe they are. I know most aren't, and I'm not afraid of individual Muslims. But when a religion is a famous source of homophobia and mass murderers, you have to look at it deeper than just "those ones were bad eggs" and brush it under the rug.

    Everyone belonging to a privileged group is partially responsible for the oppression of minorities. It's entirely unhelpful to say "not all X are like that", because there are people who are like that, and people like that are being raised and conditioned to be like that, and you have a moral responsibility to stop that and end oppression of minorities. As long as privileged groups have privilege, minorities will be oppressed.

    I'm all for freedom of religion, but when a religion breeds violence, I won't accept that as freedom of religion. You shouldn't be free to spread hate and encourage and justify violence. Same with freedom of speech. I'm all for it except when it's hate speech, because that's violence and I won't accept that as okay.
     
  9. Silvermind

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    I'm still trying to wrap my head around this. My love goes out to all of my LGBTQ+ brothers, sisters and family. This is an event that has impacted our entire community. I'm thinking of all of you.
     
  10. RavenTheRat

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    Hmm... well they may seen unnaffected, but perhaps they are not.

    Take me for example. You know I'm upset when I don't react. I'll cry when I'm sad, and scream when I'm mad, but when I'm truly furious and hysterical all at once, I don't speak a word. (And I'm always running my mouth.) My throat tightens so much I can't say a word....

    ---------- Post added 13th Jun 2016 at 12:42 PM ----------

    The fact is, religion or not, what does it even MATTER? There are people dead. That's what we need to focus on. And even if you tried to do something about the religion, what in the name of the gods would you do? Forbid the religion? Tag every person who practices that religion like Hitler? It's not logical.

    I agree with what a lot of members have been saying. We need to take this not as a chance to discuss politics but as it is- murder. Tragedy. Horror. We need to use all of our resources to make it better, to heal the wounds, to stand with our brothers and sisters and to become even stronger. THAT is what we need to focus on.
     
  11. Libertino

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    Well I'm getting a little tired of being told what I "need" to focus on. We all react to things like this in different ways. Some of us think more about preventing future attacks. There are a lot of factors that go into that. No, accusing and blaming people who had nothing to do with this is not part of it, but there are political, religious, and social matters that cause these attacks and it makes sense that some of us are addressing them.
     
    #231 Libertino, Jun 13, 2016
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  12. RavenTheRat

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    I know, I'm sorry... my post was a little bit stick-up-my-ass, wasn't it?

    I just get sad, because it seems like talking about politics just leads to argument and no resolution :frowning2: I don't like fighting
     
  13. Libertino

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    I understand, and I don't want it to be that way either, especially after seeing 1000-page gun debates as a result of this shooting on other sites. I just think as long as people are not being bigoted or dismissive toward other users they can bring up these other factors; it's all part of the way people deal with these situations. Anger and sadness are my first reactions, but then I want to see if theres anything at all that can be done to prevent this from happening again, because "that's the way it is" doesn't work for me and for a lot of frustrated others.
     
    #233 Libertino, Jun 13, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016
  14. Linthras

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    Terrible loss.
     
  15. RavenTheRat

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    I understand what you're saying, and you're a lot smarter and more realistic than I am for thinking that way. I'm just one of those idiots in their own lala land I guess.

    And you're completley right, people can talk about these things as long as they aren't being dismissive. The problem is that even the best people's worst comes out when they get heated about a subject. Or maybe that's just me and my thick, stubborn-irish/ Italian tempered head. That's a really bad combination that tends to make a really strange person, haha.

    I apologize for my immaturity.
     
  16. 741852963

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    Well the first step is having the tenacity and drive to challenge negative beliefs and sentiment within religion. I don't believe any organisation (be it a business, religion or union) should be above reproach.

    There are more options available than banning religion outright:
    -Encouraging integration
    -Banning, publisizing, or calling out dangerous/unethical practices within a religion (see FGM, child abuse Sharia Courts etc)
    -Calling a spade a spade and tackling hate speech from preachers, members using the law (this is a problem we see here with homophobic Christian street preachers routinely avoiding prosecution)
    -Monitoring and regulating faith schools (see Operation Trojan Horse for the dangers at play here!)

    A lot of change has to come from within though, and that change has been slow. Survey after survey in the UK shows homophobia is rife amongst the Islamic community, so yes we do need vocal Muslim supporters of LGBT people and causes.

    That is exactly what has helped LGBT gain so much, vocal support from privaliged groups. We have come so far because we have numerous and powerful supporters from majority groups who are allies. Islam does have to put their money where there mouth is if we are to go without suspicion or a rational fear of Islam (note, not Islamo"phobia").

    We can certainly make progress without discussing religion as there is a lot of change that can be acheived here.

    However if we truly want to tackle homophobia we have to grit our teeth and look at the root causes, which is and has always been predominately religion. There is only so long we can ignore that.

    Thank you.

    When I write what I've written I'm not asking all Muslims to apologise publicly.

    But I am asking Muslims (if it is true the majority are peaceful) to use their power of a majority and make a stand in their own communities. Tackle homophobia, preach acceptance, change archaic attitudes to homosexuality, challenge themselves. In numbers they have massive power.

    And to the masses of people (gay people, straight people alike) who deny religion plays a role. Who spread messages like "No to Islamophobia" when critical discussion of Islam is raised, they are not helping. And no Homophobia and Islamophobia are not always the same, and should not always be conflated. One is a completely irrational fear coupled with hatred, the other is often a very rational fear coupled with anxiety.

    I think if we want a tolerant and safe society, we cannot have sectors of religious groups who are unable to respond to rational debate and challenge (as seen with the mass Charlie Hebdo response prior to the attack). And we cannot provide a safe-zone for homophobia to breed.

    I think it is symptomatic of the mass violence we have unfortunately become acustom to, particularly in North America. Perhaps as a defence mechanism (to allow us to go about our daily lives without constant fear) we tend to box off these events as "freak happenings" in our mind.
     
    #236 741852963, Jun 13, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2016
  17. Vytas17

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    Don't want to get involved in gun laws and religion at the minute so I'm just going to say I hope the LGBTQ community stays strong through this terrible event. I know a lot of members of the community are scared myself included, just when we thought we were safe and society was starting to accept us this happens. You forget that there's people out there who want us dead just because of who we love. It's heartbreaking that people lack such compassion and humanity.

    Just heard about Christopher's death which is particularly devasting after watching his mother cry and beg for her sons safety. I can't imagine what her and the families of the victims are going through. I hope the survivors get the help they need, they must be traumatised. RIP to all the victims, I can't stop seeing their faces and thinking how their last seconds/minutes/even hours were filled with pain and fear :icon_sad:
     
  18. Canterpiece

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    This. ^

    Although I don't think this tragedy can even be approached with many words, as it leaves me quite speechless, this comes quite close. My condolences to the families. :frowning2:
     
    #238 Canterpiece, Jun 13, 2016
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  19. YeahpIdk

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  20. derVaminoi

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    Reading Gawker in the year of your lord 2016?

    This makes me wonder if there's more to the story though.. Maybe there was a conflict with someone he'd been seeing?