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Married guy committed to staying with wife

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by callahac, Jan 9, 2012.

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  1. Christiaan

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    (*hug*)Well, I believe you can work through this. You sound like two really great people, and I think that, together, you are strong enough to face this.
     
  2. EM68

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    Personally I think what she did was wrong. I hate to sound harsh but what she did was rape. You were asleep and then she started to penetrate you. If the rolls were reversed and she was asleep and you started to have sex with her she could very well go to the cops and say that you raped her.

    I might be reading too much into it but I think she might of sensed your anxiety and then told you that it was OK with her not having sex last night. I think if she was genuine then she would have not done that to you. I would strongly suggest that both of you go to counseling. This situation is no healthy at all and in the long run both of you may resent each other.
     
  3. insidehappy

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    ok, this is getting a little out of hand and too graphic for me. she is now taking your sex toys and trying to be a top lesbian over you. this one is way out of my league. i wish you well and hopefully you all will work it out. take care. :slight_smile:
     
    #63 insidehappy, Feb 22, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  4. Christiaan

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    Actually, our friend here really seemed to suggest that sex was an expectation in his relationship with his wife. I do agree that it was rude to spring something like that on him AFTER she had agreed to going without that same night. However, I'm in a relationship myself where performance is an expectation, and I'm just saying that some relationships are like that. There have been occasions that I have just as arguably been "raped," but I knew what I was getting into by being in that bed. Furthermore, I trust him enough to know that he would stop if I were really not getting into it. I'm always free to sleep on the couch or order him to do likewise. I'm not saying our friend's wife was entirely not in the wrong, but I would want to know their history in more detail before really weighing in on it.

    On the other hand, to our friend here, I would like to add my voice to those suggesting marital counseling. There are some really good counselors out there, and they are used to dealing with situations like this. Believe me, your situation is NOT the weirdest thing they have dealt with in the past thirty minutes.
     
    #64 Christiaan, Feb 22, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012
  5. Chip

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    It's not even remotely the same. You describe having an understanding with your partner, and you and your partner share the same sexual orientation (presumably.) This situation is completely different. It's beyond rude. It's rape. Granted, it's partner rape, which is hazy, but it's rape. And furthermore, she got him drunk and tipsy. He had no expectation that this would happen when he went to bed, especially since she'd already said sex wasn't important. Clearly it was premeditated and the more I think about it, it was very, very wrong. Violating someone -- even a spouse -- when you've previously set an expectation that sex isn't necessary, and when you've intentionally gotten them drunk is morally and ethically reprehensible.

    Counseling is in order here, but not so much for this situation. It's clear that this marriage isn't healthy, and it seems like she is focused on getting her needs met regardless of how he feels. That's not about consideration or kindness or love.
     
  6. Christiaan

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    Well, that goes back to the notion that I suggested, which is that the act was a grasp for control. My point is that, if that were the case, we have more information than we started with on what is going through this woman's mind and how best to deal with her.

    These kinds of situations can be worked out. My first and his wife managed to give their children a model upbringing considering they were divorced, but it took a lot of forgiveness and effort on both their parts. It was hard. It was damn hard. But my first is a damn proud father, and he seems to feel it was worth it all the way.

    ---------- Post added 22nd Feb 2012 at 03:49 PM ----------

    Callahac, if you are still with us, how old are your kids? Are they old enough to talk about this kind of stuff with? It doesn't sound like it.
     
  7. callahac

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    Hi Christiaan,

    My kids are young- 5 and 8 yrs old.

    Chip,

    Obviously it was premeditated on her part, but the more I think about it, I guess can you blame her in a way? Her husband is gay, and she is a healthy woman with needs as well. I guess in a way it is better that she "used" me as oppossed to going out and having a one night stand with some guy. Sigh, I don't know.
     
  8. Christiaan

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    Yes, Callahac. I am really just as annoyed with your wife, privately, as Chip is, but I realize that your situation kind of limits how fussy you can be over morals. At this point, the only thing you can really do is try to limit how MUCH her neuroticism gets out-of-hand.

    My first had offspring only a few years older than your own. And they took the situation very well. They took it well because their parents went through a lot of sacrifice to make sure they felt that things were okay, at least until they were old enough to take a mature perspective on things. My first even resisted my efforts to get him to point out to the boy, who was eldest, how much he was paying in alimony, when he couldn't get his kids good gifts on Christmas because of it: he knew that his kids would be very upset on behalf of their dad if they knew he was hurting, so he preferred being seen as a penny-pincher and a scrooge. Of course, he didn't hesitate to fill up MY ear with how little his wife did to discourage this point-of-view. My god, that guy could bitch.

    I'm just saying, Callahac, all of your instincts here are right. You are confronted with immense challenges, here, but they are challenges that you CAN deal with. My first, in spite of all of the sacrifice, is an immensely proud father of two great kids, and his wife is happier than she has ever been. His business is doing acceptably, though it did take a lot of damage during the upheaval.

    However, one thing my first let get out-of-hand was guilt. You don't have anything to feel guilty about. I see your determination to make this work out for the best. It's the same determination that my first had, and he is one hell of a guy.
     
    #68 Christiaan, Feb 23, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2012
  9. Chip

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    OK, flip that argument around and assume it's a woman and a heterosexual man, and the man is the aggressor. Nobody would question for a nanosecond that if it was a guy who was the aggressor, that the behavior is appalling and constitutes rape, or at the very least, assault. And can you imagine some guy trying to offer up as a defense, that he had "needs", and his choice was to rape his wife, or go have a hookup? He'd be crucified for saying such a thing.

    So why is it OK for your wife to do this? I'm sorry, but there's simply no way it can be justified, rationalized, or explained away. It was a violation of you physically, it was manipulative and premeditated, and done solely for her own selfish needs.

    Sorry, but there are plenty of people with said "needs" that don't go around assaulting their partners because that's the only way they can get it. And that's why people masturbate, have vibrators and dildos, and so forth. Suppose you were in a coma? Would it be OK for her to jump on you and have her way with you then because she has "needs"? Certainly not. And with you being buzzed from alcohol, almost passing out, you were pretty much in almost the same position as someone in a coma: unable to fully consent to what was going on.

    She knows the score. She knew you were gay (or at least bi) before you married. Nobody pulled the wool over her eyes; she did this to herself. And that, in my book, takes away any remaining shred of an argument that she's somehow entitled. You are a woman, and you marry a gay guy, you can't expect good sex. Anyone who can somehow spin entitlement from that needs to really rethink things.
     
  10. Christiaan

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    Don't mind me. I'm just a kitty.
     
  11. Jim1454

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    I think Christiaan nailed it when he suggests that you're dealing with guilt. I can relate. I agree with Chip - but it's easier said than done to lay an equal amount of responsibility for the situation with your wife as well as with you. You feel responsible for the situation you're in - and I understand where you're coming from.

    But it doesn't mean that you have to put up with whatever your wife wants. You need to set boundaries that work for both you and for her. Setting those with a therapist to help you communicate properly would be ideal.

    This is especially important if you and your wife need to live together into the foreseeable future. With my wife and I we agreed (well - she insisted) to separate so we needed to live together for only about 6 months after I came out to her.
     
  12. Eleanor Rigby

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    Well, I'm not exactly in the same situation your wife is, but there are some similarities.
    My husband is straight, but he is also asexual. At the beginning of our relationship, we used to have sex, not often but regularly. Then, his interest in having sexual activities with me faded away to the point it had been now completely inexistent for several years.
    I, on the other hand, have a relatively low but still existent sex-drive, and sometimes this situation gets frustrating for me.
    When my husband started to lose interest in having sexual contacts with me, I have tried different stuff to try to arouse him. That went from wearing suggestive underwear to suggest watching porn together, we even went to a sex-counselor for several months, but none of this was done without his consent. When I was wearing provocative underwear, he often told me things like "No, really, I don't want to have sex with you. Why don't you put your pajama instead." That, sometimes made me angry or sad, but if there is one thing I would never have done is to cross my husband's boundaries.
    Yes, it is sometimes very frustrating, even nowadays but I know the deal. My husband loves me, but he doesn't want to have sex with me. I could have left ages ago and maybe one day I'll have enough and I'll leave, that will be my choice but for now I love my husband and I'm happy in my couple, so I choose to stay. But that, to me, clearly imply that I can't blame my husband for not having sex with me and that it is something I have to respect.
    You're wife have known the deal since the beginning. She chose to stay and if this is in agreement with you, it's fine. But she has no right imposing her sexual urges on you in such a way. Would have she asked you if you wanted to have sex with her with her using a sex toys on you, that would have been a completely different matter, but what she did is to me unacceptable and a complete lack of respect for your feelings.
    I think that this is something you should discuss with her.

    Take care, Cécile
     
  13. PianoNate

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    I'm also a gay man in a straight marriage ... and I have trouble even imagining that a loving wife would do what you describe. I think anytime you wake up with something in your bum that you didn't plan on putting there constitutes rape. Where is the love? Where is the tenderness? Where is the acceptance and understanding?

    Don't let your own guilt at your feelings and emotions cause you to accept destructive behaviour. Some of your reasoning sounds the same as that given by wives of abusive husbands. Is it healthy for them to stay in a dangerous situation? With her acting with a complete lack of respect for your person already, be careful you don't wake up to a Jon Bobbitt situation someday. These things, if not dealt with properly, have a way of escalating.

    Get out, get help or it will get worse. Which scares me ... and should scare you.
     
  14. Christiaan

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    Alright, Nate. Now, going by that, we now have a neurotic wife and a scared husband in a house with two young children. As he shared with us earlier on, separation isn't presently viable for them, and he hinted that they are under financial strain.

    We already have the wife acting neurotic. She is apparently so confused by this situation that she recently tried to make a perverted, highly misguided, definitely ill-advised effort to try to fill in for the "male" presence that is missing in their sexuality. It reeks more of fear than any kind of viciousness. It looks like an externalizing act by someone who just got through watching all of her playbooks burn to ashes, and suddenly she's in a game where her old ideas about things don't seem to apply anymore. Although it is correct that she is clearly in the wrong, that doesn't get to the heart of it or lead to a solution.

    It looks like the only one of the two who is capable of keeping a level head presently is our friend, here. I'm sorry that that burden is on him, but I have seen people in cognitive dissonance before. They are not rational, and they cannot, under any circumstances, behave rationally until they've had a chance to rebuild their broken concept of existence. Although he would be within his rights to feel resentful over her behavior, there are other priorities, one of those priorities being the ONLY two people in the household who have not done ANYTHING to bring this situation on themselves.

    One thing that I would shake into his wife is that she contributed significantly to getting them into this situation. Whatever bull crap her husband is willing to take off of her (bless his saintly heart) while they are in private, if she were to even DARE let on to their offspring what's going on, at an age when children tend to take conflict and divorce situations as being somehow their fault, THAT, my friend, is when this woman will have made an enemy of me and lost all trace of my sympathy.

    That, to me, is what the situation and priorities are.
     
    #74 Christiaan, Feb 23, 2012
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2012
  15. PianoNate

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    The fact that we can sympathize with her emotions and reasons behind her behavior doesn't mean that we should accept them. I understand your point too, Christiaan about cognitive dissonance. But that just underscores the need for help ... therapy or even medication.

    The rape issue to me goes beyond mere neurotic behavior. Now we've moved into the realm of forcible invasion of personal integrity. My comments weren't moving Callahac to feel resentful of her, but rather to heed the warning signs of escalation. If this behavior is now acceptable (from her point of view) in their relationship ... fulfilling her own needs at the cost of another's dignity and sense of self ... what further intrusions await??

    And you have two precious souls whose integrity is also at stake? How are they being affected? because they are ... even if these issues try to remain in the bedroom, the children are being affected by the tension in household, if nothing else.

    I agree with you: the wife should be shaken into personal responsibility for the current situation. but that probably is not going to happen with the current paradigm in place. That's why I say change ... joint therapy, etc.

    Callahac: there are people here that hear you, and obviously care enough about your story to yell at each other about it. You aren't alone by any means. And there is a way to make this better.
     
  16. callahac

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    Christiaan,

    I like this, I think it sums up things pretty nicely. First off I don't think my wife is crazy or evil. Maybe misguided at times but never, ever in a million years do I think she would purposely try to hurt me. Ever.

    As for her getting us into this mess, I do blame her a bit. If she knew from the get go that I was gay, why didn't she at least broach the subject or have the commonsense to realize that love does not conquer all and that she couldn't change me. It would have been nice. Now that being said, I was more than questioning myself, I had already had gay sex on multiple occassions. Yes, I would try to bury it after each time, and go into denial that it was some sort of phase butthe bottomline is I should have said something when we were first dating. I shouldn't have been scared that she would run for the exits. So I guess we both entered the relationship on less than honest footing. We were young, stupid and in love. Which brings us to the present.

    I don't think in my heart I am living authentically and I think it could be a factor in why my life is not going as it should. I have all the brains, experience and education to be doing something better with my life, but somehow something is holding me back. People can't believe that I am in the spot I am in- and boy is that a blow to my ego hearing them say it.

    Did I mention that we lost a young child? That is another thing that bonds us as well. My wife definitely has seperation issues- her father died when she was young, our son died, and she has the fear of losing her husband. I really would hate to make that fear become a reality. Frightens the hell out of me.

    Anyway, I guess my wife did rape me. Thankfully she used lube :lol: She bought the toy for me, knows I use it to get off, and maybe in her mind she thought it might be fun for me as well. Once I was awake, like I said I kinda enjoyed it- not so much once she got on top of me
     
  17. zzzero

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    This sounds like a hostage situation. To save her feelings, she's mentally manipulating you so that she doesn't have to deal with more loss. It's not healthy to not deal with those things, and it's especially not healthy to have sex the way you two are. There's more involved with sex than "getting it in."

    It sounds like she just wants to feel the physical pleasure but she's probably not getting a lot of the emotional response from sex. It's totally wrong of her to make you feel as though you have to have sex with her. She should go out and find another man to have sex with who actually wants to have sex with her. That doesn't mean you guys have to split up, but you both need to be on the same page. You can have sex with other men and so can she. You both need to have your needs met, or you will both be miserable.

    She is wrong to keep you in a relationship when you clearly aren't happy. She is wrong to use her suffering as a way to keep you there too. She should go talk to a therapist about the deaths she's had to endure, because ignoring the problem and using you as a scapegoat isn't going to solve anyones problems, it will only make it worse.
     
  18. Merlot

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    "Till death do us part". "In sickness and in health". Your wife is trying to accomodate you in the best way she knows how, its pretty commendable actually. I say ride it out, maybe one day she'll find ya a dude or two to play with. You have made strong commitments that should be honored as tactfully as possible, for the kiddies, if anything.
     
    #78 Merlot, Feb 23, 2012
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  19. Christiaan

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    Actually, I understand that my first took his wife to every psychologist, quack and hypnotherapist in the area, while at the same time getting what he needed as well. Yeah, I do strongly agree with people seeking professional attention where it's warranted, and I agree with you that it's urgent.

    Even if you are going to some useless hypnotherapist, it takes away the isolation element, which I think is the most psychically destructive thing, period. A sense of being isolated and trapped in your own world can actually be lethal, and a therapist or social worker helps break you OUT of that. Even if the bull crap they trade on (such as hypnotherapy) isn't worth anything, a therapist eventually gets experienced enough, just from repetition, to calm down people who are severely on edge. It just pays to be with someone who makes a living creating a calm environment for open dialog.
     
    #79 Christiaan, Feb 23, 2012
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  20. Merlot

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    I would be careful making medical diagnosis without the proper credentials and requisite studies. I have studied Jungian, Freudian and Adlerian psychology extensively, this is in addition to plenty of coursework in Psych. and am still in no position to diagnose. Psychology is tricky stuff and Cognitive Dissonance in particular is an enigma shrouded in a mystery wrapped in a paradox and is always a bad place to start an analysis.
     
    #80 Merlot, Feb 23, 2012
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