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Male Friendships?

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by DecentOne, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. DecentOne

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    Hi later in life folks,

    I’ve made so much progress in my orientation over the past three years I’ve been on EC. I resurrected a 2017 thread I’d started, as it was good to reflect at this stage
    https://forum.emptyclosets.com/index.php?posts/6718441/

    There is room for improvement: I’m working with my wife to get our Mixed Orientation Marriage a bit smoother. We’re in counseling, it is helping on some things, but I have yet to re-raise the idea of male friends. A goal I’d raised a year ago was to have male friends. There is plenty about my hobbies or interests that she does not share, and I’d like to enjoy that with others. I miss the male bonding of my teen/twenties pre-marriage period of my life which included talking about “life, the universe and everything” with friends.

    What is in the way: A couple moves due to job stuff has meant I’m not around the guys I’d found during my coming out period. Plus a year ago my wife put some limits on which friendship activities were off limits, and that terrifies me that I’ll make a friend and then lose that friend because we can’t do normal friend things (non romantic, non sexual), or my wife reneges on the idea that I can have a friend once I do work hard to be one myself. I’m going to have to raise this in a marriage therapy session, it is just fraught with tension and not likely to go well if I raise it on my own.

    Have any of you wrestled with this? Male bonding beyond your 20’s? Having and keeping friends. Meeting friends? Worrying about the lack of such a friend?
     
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  2. old tacoma

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    @DecentOne — My immediate reaction to what you have written here was quite intense. I’m seething right now, and I would like to share with you my situation, but it’s probably best if I calm down first.
     
  3. Nickw

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    @DecentOne

    I think this is not all that uncommon for many adult men and especially middle aged men. I know that I desire the same sort of thing. I do have a number of friends but none that live close by. Ironically, my best friend is my brother in law who I knew before my wife.

    My wife and I have an uncommon relationship. We are very good friends that share a lot of the same interests. So, the things that I would do with another man are the things she wants to do. So, when I want to do a boys weekend to bike or ski, my wife feels left out that she isn't included. I learned that I was better off to just try and find other couples to do things with. That's worked out OK. But, there is never the sort of emotional connection between myself and the other husband.

    Even with my FWB, my wife wants to be included. He and I have a very complicated relationship. Some of it the relationship is the sort of bonding you describe. We seem to be able to set aside the physical intimacy and compartmentalize it. My wife is OK when my FWB and I get together for a night. But, she is very unhappy when we go on a bike ride without her. She never says anything but I know she is unhappy. I think she feels that I should rather want to do this stuff with her than a friend. And, that is, partly true. I just need both.

    I know this is a part of our relationship that is a bit toxic. Because, I do resent the lack or freedom to spend time with other male friends without feeling a level of guilt. My wife is well aware that this is not healthy. But, old habits are hard to break.

    Before I came out to my wife, I was taking some time to spend with other men. My wife and I were working on this. With coming out, I think my wife needs reassurance that I am not replacing her with men. She trusts that my guy time doesn't turn into intimacy with my friends (the gay me has gay time that my wife respects). My wife is not worried I will leave her for sex with a guy. She is worried I will stop wanting to do the other "guy things" with her. But, the dynamics may not be all that different than what you have.

    Our wives may worry that they will become irrelevant.
     
  4. QuietPeace

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    OK, I get that most couples do say that their partners cannot have other romantic or sexual partners but to start eliminating normal friendship activities? To me that sounds controlling to an extent that seems abusive. I hope that you try to address these issues with a counselor (one that understands that being Bisexual does not equate to being greedy or such things.
     
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  5. Bastion

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    @DecentOne
    You do bring up a very relatable topic. Yes I was thinking about that the other day. Throughout our lives we get to meet a lot of people. Some we become friends with. Some best friends with. Some just will be acquaintances. For me the times when I had the most number of friends would be high school and college years. After that. When we become immersed in the real world of work, partners, families, and jobs. We kind of drift apart from friends and they from us. Everyone I guess will have different struggles and face different situations.
    I have been working on that actually for the past 3 years. Because to tell you the truth I miss those times with friends. Buddies. When we use to do a lot of stuff. The crazy, the wild, the funny, the activities, the pranks we used to pull. Those days were amazing.
    I know things can’t be like before. But I started reaching out to some old friends. With mixed results. The girls and the guys. Some of them are single some are married.
    New friends are harder to make when you are older. But also I tried that. And am not giving up on that. Because I think good friendships are valuable.
     
  6. old tacoma

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    I guess I’m calm enough now to tell my experience. Prior to the pandemic, my wife and her women coworkers, colleagues, friends (or any combinations) regularly would have get togethers (mostly dinner parties). Spouses were invited and, for the most part, would also attend. At these parties, I would meet the other spouses (male) and talk about all kinds of stuff. Since all of the guys are white collar professionals, invariably the small talk would be mostly work related, or sports related (spectator sports), or car related (typical guy talk). Pleasant enough. At one point a new couple started to attend, and I got an opportunity to talk with the guy (couple is not married). We hit it off immediately. Not a white collar professional (same like me), he was a retired businessman, into fitness (same like me), and likes fishing and OMG hunting (same like me). We talked about off-roading, horseback riding, farming and ranching. First time I actually enjoyed myself at one of these parties. Afterward, my wife commented as we were driving home. No big deal, I had a good time.
    Next month, next dinner party, I asked if the new couple was going to be there. Yes! I actually wanted to go. When we arrive, I barely have said hello to everyone (mind you everyone, I’m not singling this guy out) and I my wife and her colleague joking out loud, my wife’s colleague saying, “We’ve got to keep those two guys separated. All their crazy ‘Green Acres’ talk.” Well, I’m not one to be put off so easily, so I pulled him aside and said, “Don’t pay them no mind.” But he was noticeably subdued. Still had a good time though. This went on for months, the same criticism, until it got to the point that all he and I would do would be to say hi and sit next to our respective spouses. Even at public events, charity fundraisers, and the like, just say hello from across the table (god forbid we would sit any closer). I asked him once if he would like to just get together, maybe go horseback riding, he said, “We’d have to clear that with the girls.” He was serious! And he and his significant other have separate houses and don’t even live together. I gave up!
    Thing is, although my wife tells me it’s good for me to have my own friends, seems like her approval is required. They need to be vetted with her. She talks to me about how the other women tell her how much their spouses like me (maybe because I’m different) and she thinks those guys are very nice.
    Sorry for the rant here, but your thread got me thinking about the whole male friendship idea, and obviously this is a sore point with me.
     
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  7. Bastion

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    The point about wives or partners having to approve of your friendships or to vet them. Is true and an issue that I don’t particularly like. It happens with me also. We actually had an argument about that. This seems to me a bit controlling. Maybe they feel someone is taking you away from them for some reason. So they have to asses that person isn’t a threat to their relationship. I can see that from their point of view but that also infringes somehow on my freedom to make friends with whomever I see fit or get along with. This person or group of persons can be anyone regardless of their sexual orientation or anything.
     
  8. old tacoma

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    @Bastion
    You’re a better man than me, that’s for sure. From your thoughts, from your words. You are looking at your situation from both your perspective and your wife’s perspective.
    You may have read some of my other posts, the ones where I mention my friend, the guy that, I admit it, the guy who I love. The guy whose boyfriend came back into his life, and I’m now just a friend.
    My wife knows about him, knows that we go walking together, have run errands together, did some home repairs together. She’s not blind, she knows I like getting together with him. She wants to meet him. I think it’s a good idea, and I have suggested it to my friend. He is very reluctant. I told him I think it will be fine. And if it isn’t, I told him that I will deal with it.
    The reason I mention him here in ‘Male Friendships’ is because I care enough about this particular male friendship that I will be not be saying “Ok” if my wife asks me to stop seeing him. He means too much to me. There’s nothing going on between us sexually now, that’s not the point. But he truly is my gay bff.
     
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  9. musicteach

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    I’m sorry but but this “approving your friends and vetting them” stuff is bull and borderline abusive. When it affects the partnership — giving them money, sleeping with them, letting them crash on your couch — that’s where your partner’s opinions come into play. And at that point you should be discussing it with your partner because at that point it affects them too. But outside of that? You should be allowed to make your own decisions about your friends.

    My fiancé and excuse my language on this doesn’t have the kahones between his legs to tell me who I can’t hang out and be friends with. Out of respect for our relationship and myself I never hang out with people that are going to get me hurt or killed. But he doesn’t tell me oh you can’t see this person because of x.

    He tried it once and learned his lesson because I was so mad we almost broke up. So this was back when we were young I was still in the Navy and he was still new to the sheriff’s department (he’sa sergeant now). I had just come home from a six month deployment overseas (the band would get deployments too and would do USO type tours for troops) and so I was at my friends house. They had thrown a little welcome home party. My fiancé and his Buddy from work going to show up in the cruisers and uniforms acting big and bad. He gonna start demanding people’s ID so he could know who I’m hanging out with.

    On any given day, my fiancé has a good 75-100lbs on me. Especially if he’s in full uniform. I grabbed him by the collar of his bullet proof vest underneath his uniform and DRAGGED him outside. Told him if he knows what’s good for him, he’ll get in his cruiser and he’ll go on somewhere and MAYBE I’d see him at the house. Told him when I got home don’t pull stunts like that ever again because I will take that badge off your chest, melt it down and brand you with it. Then you explain to your cop friends why you got a silver X on your chest.

    Don’t get me wrong here. I love that he’s so protective over me and the kids. I’ve always got somebody that has my back and I love that about him. I’ve always got his back, too. But I am not a shrew to be tamed. I am a Hurricane to run from.
     
    #9 musicteach, Nov 20, 2020
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
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  10. DecentOne

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    Thanks for your responses. It sounds like a few have had an experience where a partner has been uncomfortable with friends.

    Back when I was straight, I joined a hobby group of guys. I had trouble showing up on time, and that sent a message that I wasn’t really giving them the respect they deserved. Each time I’d get ready to head out of the house in time, my wife would suddenly remember a task I needed to do, for her or the kids (“wait, this is quick, please do this DecentOne, before you leave”). And she’d want me back right after, so I wasn’t just hanging out, lingering with the guys socially. Or at random times not related to hobby time she would complain she didn’t have a hobby group for herself (as if it was unfair that I was continuing with my hobby). That group of guys did (over time) realize I was dedicated to the focus of the group, and if we ran into each other elsewhere we’d say “hi” and chat for a minute... but never made it a point to form friendships outside the group. When I came out as bisexual and joined a LGBTQ hobby group near my (distant) work place, there were hints that my wife was not happy - such as the time I’d invited my wife to come after work to watch us in action, and she arrived very late, and once she was there she gave off all sorts of negative body language signals (one of the guys said something privately later about how she came across upset, prickly or even angry).

    I appreciate the message you’ve given me about needing to stand up for myself and my friendship needs. I’ve spent half my life putting my wife and family first. I am proud of my love and dedication, and the investment of time as husband and father. That is a lot of habit to overcome, though easier now that we’re empty nesters. I recognize I have some natural strengths in the quest for friendship. I’m lucky that I have a bit of an extroverted side so I’ll be drawn to engaging with people, even those I don’t know yet. I think my job location has settled in for a long bit so it makes sense to put in the effort, as I’m not going to be pulling up roots again.

    Again, thanks for letting me know how there are things you’ve had to work around, or be assertive about, in this quest for male friendship.
     
  11. musicteach

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    It’s not that you can’t have both, this isn’t a trade off. It’s about setting respectful boundaries and having your partner respect them.

    (Btw you were never straight. You didn’t just “become” bisexual. You just discovered it about yourself.)
     
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  12. DecentOne

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    It’s complicated. Should be its own thread, but I’ll summarize. I know that is the “correct” way of stating it (always bi), otherwise we might lose all our rights if we don’t keep reinforcing the mantra “we were born that way”. But at the time (2.5 years ago) the way I experienced it was a shift from straight to bi. I thought I was at the hetero end of the scale, my body and fantasies confirmed that orientation, and besides back when I was going through my teens people had only straight or gay as categories. Yes, as a teen I did answer my friend that “I like people” - there was no word for that. Back then it was pretty clear: if you liked girls (my body reactions - sweat and arousal - around girls were totally real) then you were straight. Then in late mid-life I experienced a shift to bisexual, and though I’m yet to get aroused by a guy in real life, my current fantasies about guys are almost as good as the ones I had about women in years past. Fluidity? Are men “allowed” to be fluid? Was I moving from a weak Kinsey 1 (which for all purposes looked exactly like a Kinsey 0) to a strong Kinsey 2? It confuses (scares) my wife for me to use that Kinsey scale though, as it makes it look like I’m moving away from her (and I’m not). On the online test based on Michael D. Storm’s model, I’m about 2/3rds Heterosexual, and 2/3rds Homosexual. Firmly in the middle of the bisexual quadrant. I’m fine with that.

    If I’m going to move forward on making plain old friends, or a best friend, then the counselor needs to be in on the conversation I have with my wife.
     
  13. DecentOne

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    I get it. I have lived that. And I want to be trusted to be able to make my own decision, and that is going to take some tough marriage counseling sessions to get to the place where I’m not having to interrupt a friendship with that sort of statement.

    Bingo. Except in my case even my pre-coming out friend activities triggered my wife’s need for reassurance. The bi thing just makes it worse.
     
  14. musicteach

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    I’m sorry DecentOne I realize I might have sounded sharp. Apologies.
     
  15. DecentOne

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    Apology accepted.

    I’ve spent time looking back, to see what reinterpretation I can do, trying to spot the bisexuality. It’s really true I felt it as a shift - I knew I needed a therapist to talk to, and figure out what was going on.

    When I talk about looking back, I’ve been told on EC not to dwell on the past. Sigh. I do it anyway. :wink:
     
  16. Nickw

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    @DecentOne

    I think there is a fine line between our wives wanting to manipulate or control us and just wanting to be reassured and included.

    my wife is not the least bit manipulative or controlling. It’s just not in her nature. But, she does want to be a part of my life...sometimes too much.

    We found, pre coming out, that a weekend a month for us to each do something different seemed like a good way to handle this. Now, we haven’t been able to get back into it. Not a trust issue; more of a timing issue. She is OK with me having my gay time. But, when I’m not on gay time, I’m on her schedule.

    So, I’ve made the choice that having some time with my gay friends is more important than rekindling those older friendships with other men. With the exception of my FWB, I don’t have a lot of emotional connections with other men. I think that platonic male bonding is very important.

    You may just have to push the issue with your wife to an uncomfortable point in order for change to occur. So often, in relationships, we don’t change a toxic dynamic because, for the most part, things are pretty good. If things are as good as we think, then it stands to reason that the relationship can adjust.
     
  17. RD Spencer

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    Your situation seems very similar to mine with the exception that I began having same sex fantasies in my early teens. Through out my life the male to female is roughly 50/50.

    The odd part is that I have never crushed on a guy, or when in the physical presence I have never felt like kissing, touching or anything sexual. I can certainty tell if a guy is attractive though and have felt a bit intimidated by that at times, but that could be from insecurities about my own attractiveness.

    I have gone through several rounds of questioning my sexuality because of my fantasies but these feeling never materialize in reality, so I end up telling myself its just in my head just so I can stop dwelling on it. As for my feeling and experiences with women have been fairly similar to typical straight guys, I have hung out with the exception that it seemed like my sex drive was not quite as strong as some of my friends, but was close. This can easily be caused by worries and anxiety which I had a lot of when I was younger. To me visually women have always seemed much beautiful and sexually attractive compared to men.

    So what do the fantasies mean?

    I think part of the answer may lay in fluidity. I have found that in my fantasies I am more aroused by thinking of the sexual feeling, pleasure and experience than I am thinking of a specific person. I can easily substitute genders of the person of replace the person with something else and keep the arousal going.

    From what I have read in studies on psychology sites is that most men are more aroused by thinking of a specific person they think is hot. Most women are more aroused by thinking of the sexual pleasure itself. This is also why women seem to have wide range of sexual fluidity compared to men. The studies also say that approximately 59% straight women have had same sex fantasies and 1/3 of them have had same sex experience. Many straight women are also aroused by lesbian porn. This fluidity is also why so many guys think all women are bi.

    Just look up sexuality women vs men on the web.


    In my teens I began noticing that how I see and feel about sex, relationships and commitment seem to be more in tune with women than men with the exception that I find women much more attractive. I am going to look more into this but I suspect this fluidity might explain the fantasies while it seems to have little to due with who I crush on and fall in love with.
     
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  18. Bastion

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    @DecentOne

    I think your reasoning and the way you are going about this makes a lot of sense. Because you have the understanding of how your wife thinks. And you emphasize with her. But you also want the time to explore your new found sexuality which is normal. Am sure you don’t want to do that and hurt her in the process. I think also just like @Nickw mentioned. They need assurances and some kind of transparency to feel secure in their relationship with you. I think once they have that. They will be more at ease.
    This is what I have been trying to understand and work through this past year.

    Off course this has nothing to do with assertiveness, weakness or confidence of the person. It has to do more with managing conflict either external or internal in a complicated situation. For me I can walk out any minute if wanted to and nothing can stop me. She doesn’t actually have that control. I have reached a point where I can do as I like but I choose to do it like you. Because she is a good person maybe even better than me. And I believe conflict will only breed more conflict. Just like anger. It wouldn’t solve anything. It may lead to more bitterness and resentment or regrets. Plus you are venturing into the unknown. Who knows you may not want to go that way after all if you explored it.
     
  19. DecentOne

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    Yeah that would be normal... but I’m not looking for a boyfriend, or FWB. I want lower-case friend(s). Not so much venturing into the unknown (I’ve got my fantasies for that, and my love of LGBTQ groups in real life if COVID ever lets up). That’s what makes this so tough to have to raise in counseling - I’m not seeking to explore sexually, yet still my wife has had a hard time with what I’m asking.
     
  20. Nickw

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    @DecentOne

    I understand the type of friend you desire.

    Do you sometimes wonder if a man on the high end of the Kinsey scale can feel the same way? my FWB is a total 6. He has never had a friend, until me, that he is emotionally tied to that wasn’t a romantic interest. I’m not sure why. He and I discuss how complicated things are with us. But, we don’t have answers. Neither of us feels “romance” but we do love each other and we are intimate.

    Maybe you wife is worried that the lines can become blurred because you are bisexual? In my case, I’ve never been sexually attracted to my close male friends. Except for this one guy...