LGBT and Islam, why isn't it legal?

I'm not Muslim but my country has the world's second largest Muslim population and I can tell you the problem is not religion. It's the way we interpret it.

India not only doesn't acknowledge the LGBTAQ communities but also criminalises all 'unnatural sex' thanks to an 1861 law passed by the British under their rule. It won't get you killed, but can get you imprisoned for life. And no we can't blame the English because the UK is one of the few queer havens today in this rotten world.
My or rather my parents' religion (Hinduism) has texts explicitly calling for acceptance of the queer. They're infused in many of our myths and stories, even sculpted in our temples and explored in the Kamasutra. Even the Muslim Mughals patronized some homoerotic art. Sounds great doesn't it? But it's not.

It has been twisted into this hateful mess that plagues our country and all its minorities. If such a tolerant religion fails to protect it's followers, we can't expect it from its more conservative counterparts like Islam.
No religion advocates hate and bigots just conveniently use certain texts to justify their own insecurities while ignoring others calling for love (Love thy neighbour for example).

As for bringing about change, it's impossible when countries start restricting free speech too. We'll have to wait a long time till queer movements can mobilise enough international support to be able to challenge these both theocratic and authoritarian regimes.

 

Hi I am a Moslem from the county with the largest Islam population in the world.
I understand why islamic countries are not legalized LGBT, because it prohibited on the Al Quran.It refers to the verses in the Holy Al Quran that talk story of Prophet Luth AS.
Anal sex in Islam is forbidden because God provide vagina, every people should have children that the children will continue as next generation. LGBT life practice impossible to have children.

I myself, a gay, married with two kids. My wife knows me as gay but it is very difficult for divorce here, consider to family relationships. But one day I have a dream in the end of me, I can life be as gay and find the right guy even if I should living in the islamic communities.

I was living in west country for some years and I can distinguish gay life between East and West, west people have freedom and east people (Moslem countries) life based on Islam and culture, so Islamic people should responsible to their life in the world with do good things. We are believe that in the life after life we should responsible for what we did in the world.

I myself as person who come from Islamic country will not change myself to be Westerner, but I will be brave declare that I am gay one day.
Silas

 

I think it’s a bit of an oversimplification to say ‘no one’ understand this problem and that is isn’t being addressed, because it is actually a topic that is widely discussed all across the political spectrum. The problem, however, is that like Chip said, there’s no easy solution we’re all going to be able to agree on, and the debate often gets stuck because people are unwilling to listen to each other’s perspectives and/or because no one quite agrees on what the real cause of the problem is, which then makes it hard to determine how to ‘solve’ it, too.


If the problem is religion and religion only, like you say, the only way to ‘fix’ things would be to get of Islam altogether – and that’s not going to happen, obviously. Secularization is a good step, but definitely doesn’t guarantee success: Indonesia’s constitution states that it’s a secular country but in practice, Islam plays a large role in government regulation, and Romania is technically secular but that doesn’t mean its dominant religion (orthodox Christianity) does not affect the rights of LGBT people anymore.


The thing is that the problem with LGBT rights in Islam is not necessarily religion. In fact, there is plenty of evidence to support that pre-modern Islam was much more accepting of homosexuality than many of its branches are today. For example, there is plenty of Islamic art depicting, for example, anal sex between men, and when it comes to legislature, the Ottoman empire actually decriminalizedhomosexuality as early as the 1800s. There are different interpretations about just how widespread homosexuality was within Islamic societies, but a significant number of scholars (amongst which Tilo Beckers and Samar Habib) have actually argued that the root of the homophobia in modern day Islamic countries is in European colonialism more than it is in the religion itself. While it is true that most of these colonizers have since become more accepting of LGBT people (The Netherlands, for example, colonized Indonesia, a largely Muslim country, but later also became the first country to legalize same sex marriage), it is too simple to say the only reason the colonized countries did not is because of Islam. In fact, I remember reading once that in a number of African countries, acceptance of homosexuality sort of became synonymous with ‘western values’ and in trying to resist western influence, they also started opposing homosexuality, even if the people of that nation had not necessarily been opposed to it before they became colonized. Most of these were/are not Islamic countries, but their current LGBT situation is not exactly great, either.


There are a lot more factors that come into play than just the nature of a religion. I fully agree with @CuriousLad that the interpretation of a religion is a bigger problem than the religion itself. There are plenty of muslims who do support LGBT rights. The first Muslim member of the US congress or senate (not sure which one it was) actually opposed discrimination of LGBT people, and there are a number of LGBT movements within Islam, some of which you’re likely to encounter in pride parades of culturally diverse countries. The interpretation of a religion typically relies on many other factors, including non-religious cultural values and political ideals. More so, the discourses aroundreligion also play a role. I have read that where I live here (Sweden), LGBT muslims are scared to come out not just because their family’s interpretation of Islam was homophobic but also because Swedish people assume Islam to be homophobic and therefore refuse to understand someone can be LGBT and Muslim. This is a place that is known both for its low number of (dedicated) religious people and for its acceptance of LGBT people --- yet this exact situation makes it complicated for them to come out. That just shows how complicated it is.


I fully agree with @Chip on this:

In addition, often, when cultural values are imposed by countries who believe it is their right to do so, this backfires. Like the example I gave above about the African countries: by imposing values, these values can quickly become equated to oppression… which will only increase resistance against them. I don’t think anyone here feels like the prosecution of LGBT people should continue – regardless of what the cause of this violent homophobia is – but if it was an easy problem to solve, it’d already have been done…

 

I wasn't aware that the Quran was this explicitly homophobic. Yes Islam does drive the anti-LGBT laws in these countries. At the same time, Christianity hasn't granted you LGBT rights in your country and the West. I'm not Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox but I'm well aware that the Bible doesn't exactly support queers. You got your rights through activism and hence the West in general does inspire the World when dealing with human rights.
As I said easier, Religion doesn't drive anti-LGBT sentiments and laws in countries like China and India, bigotry does. So we really can't generalise.
Although it's worth noting that religion (or rather some evangelicals' interpretation of it), having infiltrated politics, is taking away reproductive rights from American women and many rights from LGBT Americans. So you're not completely wrong.

 

I hope that it's not too late to join this conversation.
I am Muslim who lives in the US, originally from Egypt. I moved to the US with my ex-wife (still going through a vicious divorce) we got married in Egypt in the early 90s. Now I am not out of the closet but to a few gay friends and my therapist. I struggle to even open up to my kids (married daughter 25, and a son 19), although both of them were raised in the US, my son was born here too. May be because of the critical timing of divorce and problems that I'm having with their mother.

I've been reading the Quran diligently for years, most recently I try to re-read those verses that relate to homosexuality in specific and try to link those stories of Sodom and Gomorrah & prophet Lut with other stories that come typically before and after them. An attempt to put those stories in context to better understand the origins of the Muslim world homophobia, as well to try to see if proper justification for me to live as a gay man with another man could be legitimate in order for me to find a peaceful ground in my heart and mind with regards to this matter. Conclusion so far; I'm still struggling.

Previous posts here suggested that the Quran forbids homosexuality and punishes it. I kindly disagree. The Quran punished the people of Lut (Sodom and Gomorrah), not only because of their men seeking lust in other men, but also for transgression and disbelief in God. Even the lust for other men, when you read the Arabic scripture, you directly get the indication that there was something done improperly; i.e. the sex was induced on visitors who would come to the town, it was violent and non-consented. It has been argued that those actions could not be described as "homosexuality" since the lesbian act was never mentioned nor referred to anywhere in the Quran. All marriage verses, on the other hand, talks about "Couples" ("Zawj" in Arabic), and anyone knows the language would say that the word has a male connotation (Arabic differentiates between "masculine" and "feminine" words), even in its plural form, I am yet to see the female plural form of this word in the Quran that would descibe "wives". What I want to say is that when God speaks about couples, I could, as a Muslim, gay, Arabic speaker man, understand it as man/woman, man/man, or woman/woman couples. It is very generic, although it needs someone with a more Arabic linguistics profession to explain it more.

There is no place in the Quran that orders the punishment of homosexuals. God punished the people of Lut like any other people who disobeyed his commandments sent to them through one or more of His prophets. There are verses in the Quran that describe the punishment of fornication and those verses clearly distinguish that this act is between a man and a woman, nothing with regards to man/man or woman/woman actions. All what Muslim scholars rely on in terms of punishing homosexual acts (sexual action) is solely based on stories from the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, and many of which have unauthentic narrations. The problems is that Muslims nowadays rely heavily on those interpretations since the homosexuality oppression, for whatever reason (colonization or not), was dominating for hundred of years in many of the Muslim countries. It makes sense to them to forbid it and it makes sense to them, since they don't understand it (not discussed in public nor private because it is a taboo), to consider it punishable in the most aggressive way.

My point is, Quran and Islam do not punish homosexuality, more modern Muslim scholars condemn the engagement in sexual behavior (homosexual action), and not homosexuals. There is a definite lack of understanding of this subject especially at the scholarship level. Personally, I despise any scholar who condemns homosexuality and its actions (even within the gay marriage framework) without being gay himself. No one can judge on an issue like this without experiencing it first hand, and I am not talking about experiencing the sex, but rather living the lie, being forced to be involved in straight marriage, being denied living oneself truth, and hide within a society that do not even give any kind of support to homosexuals. Did any of those scholars think for one moment how can I, as a gay man, live in a patriarchal society, having to be involved with other men in prayers, gatherings, men/women segregation...etc. They are putting me in a situation where I have to control my lust while hugging and kissing other men, because it is normal in Egypt and in many Muslim countries to do so, but not women, having to have sex with a wife? did any one of those scholars imagined the opposite? would it be normal if I forced the straight scholar to have sex for 25 years with another man without complaining? It is unfair, and there is a huge lack of studies and lack of truthfulness with one selves from the Muslim scholars around the world. There is a problem that they need to face, either let those homosexuals live and allow them to marry their partners, or give them another option that will be practical and they can live with for the rest of their lives. But prohibition for just the sake of prohibition is not acceptable.

Anyways, seeing this post brought so much agony and revived the struggle I'm living in my heart and head. Now I cannot come out to my kids because I am worried they out me to their mom who is a vicious woman who can easily use this information against me and my family. I'm hoping that I reach a point of maturity within myself that I can discuss this issue with my kids. I have no hopes of being accepted as who I am from any of my family members back in Egypt though.

I apologize for the long post!

 

It's the same answer for all religions in my opinion. More people having straight sex causes more children. The more children are born, the more followers of the religion exist. The more followers there are, the more powerful the religion is, and the more influence/power that religion has over the world to do whatever they want with.

By not being straight, you're not having children, so aren't creating more followers of the religion, which is seen as a betrayal because you're not helping further the power/influence of that religion.

 

@bearheart I read your whole post with great interest. I'm sorry that you are in such a difficult situation. The oppression of homosexuality would only make sense if homosexuality were a choice. But we know it's not a choice, it's innate, it's who we are.

 

Bearheart

What an amazing lesson in Islam and homosexuality. I've heard similar interpretations about Christianity.

I was raised as a very protected and very devout Catholic. I was taught to not question anything about the faith and never question a priest.

As a kid, I "abused myself" quite a bit, I might add, before I learned that was referring to masturbation and it was a grave sin. Especially, if I thought about a girl while I did it. Then it was, really, the same as sex outside of marriage in the Carholic doctrine I was taught.

So, I tried not to fantasize at all and justified it as relieving myself to avoid the more serious sin. But, I lived with incredible guilt about anything sexual for many years.

The funny thing is that my, somewhat, "evil" thoughts about boys was not addressed. Sure, there was the talk of the sin of sodomy but that wasn't even anything I understood. So, playing with another boy, while I understood it as naughty, it never really registered as such a sin.

In a way. I lucked out. I developed my m2m desires in a way that made it feel more "good" than hetero sex. I doubt that's what the Church intended.

My folks, who were VERY Catholic gave up their religion for their gay children. So you never know.

 

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah that @bearheart referenced from the Quran is the same story that some Christians lift directly out of The Bible in order to clobber gay men. Trouble is, they're only lifting a few lines out of scripture to undergird their own petty prejudice. A closer analysis of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (and it most likely is a story) and wider reading of the chapter paints an entirely different picture to the one we often hear. This same argument follows for all of the other clobber passages that are chanted by fundamentalists from Islam and Christianity. Holy Scripture is not like the latest novel. It needs to be read carefully and studied well, with due regard to historical context, adaptation and translation through the ages. Quoting words from the page parrot fashion is the height of ignorance.

 

And that's what scares me the most. Why should I leave my faith altogether in order to be able to live as who I was created as? I am trying to stick to my faith as much as I can, giving up one's faith is a tremendous loss. I blame the whole problem on the misunderstanding and misinterpretation of the scriptures.

I cannot imagine that homosexuality is something new that never existed nor discussed thousands of years ago, but nevertheless was shy to be mentioned in historical records in a proper way. I think that we, the contemporary human beings, created this problems ourselves, it was never a problem in the first place.

 

This plagues my Catholic family. My parents saw it this way..."if the Church does not allow my children to receive Communion (the essence of the Catholic faith) then how can I".

That said, at my niece's wedding, my gay brother and his boyfriend, both received the sacrament. So, he has come to some compromise. My parents just won't. They feel this is how they affect change.

I take it a step further. I feel religion is one of our biggest problems...or at least the practice is.

I guess when one has his beliefs shattered at such a young age, as I did, it really effects one. I learned I was bisexual before I learned it was wrong in the eyes of my religion.

I used to wish I was a heathen and had never heard of God. Then I would be innocent of the sin that was me.

Crudely, I woke up one day and said WTF? I never went back to Church unless someone dies or for marriages.

 

I would say the more accurate statement is that the way certain religious people live out their beliefs is the problem (and others live out their beliefs in a way that is healing and helpful). This is true of all human activities. Also, some gay men have brought on their own problems and have generally dragged down the perception of gay people with their behavior ... such as statements that "the problem is religion and has always been religion?" Do you really think making inaccurate overarching statements like that is a way to win allies?

 

I'm pan, trans, and a Universal Sufi (a Islamic Mystical tradition, I happen to be fond of the Inayati Order). My denomination or sect has no issues with gay individuals, and I personally think that gay rights should be held of importance worldwide, this includes legalization of same gender marriage.

 

Justaguy

I think those that have a good experience with religion have a different basis for their beliefs on this.

Being Catholic almost killed me...literally. To learn at 16 that what you are was a grave sin is a horrible thing to go through. It happened to three of my siblings too...each alone because none of use knew what was happening to the other.

So, we all went to church and prayed and secretly despised who we were.

One of my brothers appears to be trying to reconcile his religion or at least attends because his much younger boyfriend is still Catholic.

But, my other gay siblings can't even consider religion.

I understand some folks consider religion as helping them be better people. I think that whatever works is great for that person.

But, I'm not sure I've seen that my agnostic friends are any less giving or more "sinful" than their religious counterparts.

 

Good points. Interestingly the same type of phenomenon happens in the gay-male community as well, where men come to despise themselves because they don't fit the "ideal" and the prevailing ethos is to pursue one's own sexual pleasure regardless of social norms or harm inflicted on others or the community in general. The common element is the devaluing of real-life human beings.