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Lesser-known gender identities/sexualities, and all others

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by AnAtypicalGuy, Nov 24, 2016.

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  1. iiimee

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    A QUICK SUMMARY, for those of you who don't understand:

    The moderators are NOT saying that you cannot identify as a certain label. Honestly, I don't get why so many people on here are worked up. :/ It would be a disservice to any questioning people on here to tell them that certain identities and sexualities have evidence to back them up and thus are "fact", when, in fact, the label is only used by a small number of people with NO EVIDENCE to back it up.

    That being said, EVERYONE ON EC is entitled to feel respected, but when the moderators and administrators are providing information to people, it will not be based around their opinions, rather the facts and evidence given thus far by SCIENCE. If this bothers you, then don't ask for information from this site, but people on EC are guaranteed the right to be given reliable information. As I said, it would be troublesome if someone who was questioning if they were gay or not came on here and was told they were "graysexual" but did not know anything really about the label or that it has no basis in science. Now, I personally don't label my sexuality too often, but when I do, I just go by "bisexual" because it's easily understood by people. That's just me. You are free to do as you please, but yeah, the moderators will not lie to you and tell you that a sexuality like that has evidence surrounding it or is anything more than an expression of a pre-existing sexuality, really. Now, no matter what pronouns you use on EC, you should be respected and everyone will try to use them, I'm sure, and nobody will tell you that your sexuality or gender identity is WRONG, but... The moderators and administrators cannot provide you information that is not factual. That should be understood.
     
  2. RainbowGreen

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    Sorry, but the ''unicornsexual'' and ''mayonnaisegender'' clearly seemed like mocking to me. The mods have every right to be skeptical of non-confirmed identities, but it doesn't mean they should stoop that low.

    That's what was personally bothering me.
     
    #42 RainbowGreen, Nov 26, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  3. Chip

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    OK, let me just say... I genuinely apologize. I was not trying to make a mockery but instead, using an extreme example, to genuinely say that anyone can choose any label they want, no matter how ridiculous it may sound to someone else.

    Let me further say that "mayonnaise" has actually been discussed as a gender on Tumblr about 3 years back. And while the original was likely a joke, there was some genuine discussion attempting to validate it. Same with "Magical Unicorn" and "Moon" as a gender.

    That was my point... people absolutely may use any label they wish to use. It is not my place or anyone else's to "police" gender identity. And one person's completely reasonable explanation is another's ridiculously outrageous one. That's the entire point. I chose those examples to illustrate simply because they are so completely outlandish that few people would likely choose them... but if someone wants to use that label (or any other, more reasonable-but-still-unrecognized label) it is their right to do so.

    I'm not sure what else to say to get this across. I think iiimee really hit the nail on the head.
     
  4. Creativemind

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    I can somewhat see where the mods are coming from. Sometimes labeling just goes a bit too far. Everyone does have the right to whatever label, but sometimes it can get confusing to a questioning person.

    This is true even for the more popular labels. I've seen it myself on EC where someone says "I feel both feminine and masculine, I wear both dresses and hoodies, what am I". It's always answered with a "You must be genderfluid/bigender/etc,". Um, you realize that MOST people are both feminine and masculine in traits, right? That plenty of cis women like hoodies, video games, wrestling, etc and plenty of cis men like cats, flowers, and even chick flicks? It's not to say you can't call yourself genderfluid, but pushing these labels on people based on stereotypes isn't going to help them. It's also reactionary and conservative to think we need new labels based on gender roles.

    Another one is asexuality, which I do believe is a real orientation. My friend is asexual and I 100% believe it as she's in her 20's and never found anyone attractive. Someone calling themselves asexual doesn't bother me. HOWEVER, I have seen people talk about having a low sex drive, being sex-repulsed, not finding random strangers attractive, etc, and automatically getting the asexual/demisexual label pushed on them by others. Now, you CAN be asexual and feel all of these things. But they aren't connected to asexuality on their own. You can be homosexual and have a low sex drive, be sex-repulsed, and not find strangers attractive. Trying to treat sexuality as if it belongs to horndogs and that we find everyone attractive is unhelpful to gay people who are less sexual. They might get confused and feel like they 'don't belong', even though we should teach them that they probably are just gay....with a low sex drive.
     
  5. gravechild

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    Just because the terminology might have changed doesn't mean "third genders" and others haven't always existed across the globe. Even before genderqueer and non-binary came around, you had butches, who didn't necessarily see themselves as women, and "sissies", among others. The US is barely catching on, after years of religious fundamentalism.

    Iris, I suppose you don't believe intersex exists, either? The language might have changed, but plenty of folk don't fit into the neat male/female dichotomy. And if you understand that gender and biological sex are two different things, and that abnormalities can exist in one, why not the other?
     
  6. Linthras

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    There's a difference between stating facts and implying things aren't real because there hasn't been extensive scientific research on the subject, yet.
     
    #46 Linthras, Nov 26, 2016
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  7. Chip

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    Right, and in this case, there's been extensive scientific research on the subject for 40+ years, so there is fact. :slight_smile:
     
  8. Linthras

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    Wrong. Absence of evidence is not evidence of non-existence, especialyl when there's been little to no research into the subject.
    I'll point out again, that until the last 40 year, there was virtually no research in LGBT issues.
    That does not mean the experiences and the labels people used for said labels were either invalid or false.
     
  9. gravechild

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    Right, and if you had asked people... say, three hundred years ago, about homosexuality, they'd tell you it was simply a fetish or perversion. The idea that there were "orientations", and people were born with them, was pretty far out.

    Is it a surprise that scientists have their own biases? They tried proving certain races or sexes were inferior, being white men, and all. Is it so surprising someone who isn't trans or non-binary would try to discredit their existence, or paint them in a less favorable light?
     
  10. Browncoat

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    I would be inclined to give more leeway if this was not a clear and obvious bias that I have seen the entire time I have perused this forum. The "science" excuse was only formulated in the past couple of years.

    No, this is nothing but a crusade to put down people simply because you disagree with them.

    Do I think most of the labels are a bit silly? Yes. But I see absolutely no reason to denigrate people for them. No real, actual, quantifiable harm is done by the people using them.
     
  11. Chip

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    I get a little tired of restating the same point, especially in the same thread.

    Relationships, gender, gender identity, attraction, arousal, lack of attraction, and just about every single aspect of human sexual behavior has been extensively studied, in tens of thousands of studies. The researchers that look at these things have covered the same ground over and over. There's an abundance of research, worldwide, on all of these issues. There's a lot of clarity on it. If you haven't taken the time to look at the studies out there, that's perfectly fine. But don't represent it as if the research isn't there, or isn't extensive, because that simply isn't the case.
     
  12. Quem

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    I never quite fit in with both straight and gay people. I don't get the concept of celebrity crushes at all, sure people may look nice, but that's about it. The idea of "this person looks nice, wouldn't mind doing things with him/her" is so foreign to me.

    Being told that "oooh no you're just gay/bisexual/straight" seems somewhat off. I see it on this site as well. People who really wonder if they are to the asexual side (even some that say they are), are met with a "but most asexuals have mental health problems" or with a "you might be repressing it", which is particularly unhelpful. I think the idea of seeing sexuality on a grid is so much more helpful.

    That is, we have gay -- straight on the x-axis and sexual -- asexual on the y-axis. Acknowledging that sex drive (but also attraction towards people itself) comes in various forms is helpful in my opinion, just like you say. =]
     
  13. Creativemind

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    I agree. I don't mind someone suggesting asexuality, but sometimes it seems more like others want to fit sexuality in a box where "real gay people" have to be horny all the time and find random people attractive. Not true for me either. I've never found random strangers or celebrities "hot" but I hvae been sexually attracted to people I know well. I could be a "gray-asexual/demisexual whatever" but why can't I just be a "normal" lesbian who prefers personality and sex after a bond rather than a new label? Just seems to confuse things.

    ---------- Post added 26th Nov 2016 at 03:44 PM ----------

    Well personally I should add also that the asexual community seems to not like people to use words like "straight" and "gay" either, which is why I don't like identifying with it. I wouldn't mind being technically gray-asexual or whatever, but the gay label is so important to me for many reasons.
     
  14. Quem

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    I agree, that's true as well. Perhaps "sex-crazed society" is to blame, I don't know. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: To me, personally, a label doesn't really confuse things (at least, it shouldn't, if the label is clear).

    On one hand, including gray (to my own label) would make it more accurate. However, I don't feel the need to do so personally so I just don't. It's the same as saying "Kinsey 5" or "Kinsey 4" instead of saying gay or bisexual respectively, in my opinion.
     
  15. Linthras

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    They really haven't.
    Gay and to a lesser extent bisexual and transgender studies have been done.
    But the latter still keeps being researched and turning up new findings and there are various aspects that have been relatively untouched.

    As soon as you stop pretending the available research has debunked these experiences, never mind the labels.
     
  16. Irisviel

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    You guys use the same arguments as creationists or just religious preachers in general. There is no evidence God doesn't exist, therefore he's real.

    Lack of evidence after decades of studies is quite sufficient to conclude non binary genders are not real. This is how science works.
     
  17. Linthras

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    Absolute nonsense.
    Firstly we're talking about how people experience gender identity and sexual attraction, not external (supernatural) entities.

    Secondly, no-one in this thread has managed to present a single study that investigated the existence of, for example, demisexuality, or genderneutrality.
    Never mind a study that could not find any evidence for those things.
    All that's been presented are assertions and appeals to personal ignorance and incredulity.
     
  18. AgenderMoose

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    If we have no proof that something does exist, and no proof that it doesn't exist, then we call it "inconclusive data".

    Unless you can find me research that explicitly states "this is not a thing", then the research has simply come up that there is no identifiable evidence for the thing to exist, which could mean a number of things. Lack of technology, lack of understanding, etc. And on top of that, science has been known to, on multiple occasions, disprove itself based on data that has a high margin of error being tampered with, advancements in technology and understanding of life, and much more.

    Moral of the story, no research proving the fact doesn't always equal research disproving the fact. In fact, that's the case most of the time. If we're to go back to your association with God, then the scenario is "We have no certifiable evidence that there is a God." But we also have no certifiable evidence that there isn't a God. Therefore, the data is inconclusive, meaning that there could or could not be a God, we simply don't have the technology or understanding to prove or disprove one. And yes. That lack of understanding and/or technology can span over decades.

    That's how science works, my friend. Your interpretation of "no evidence means it's not real" is called a logical fallacy.


    Unrelated side notes:
    1. I'm surprised this thread is still going
    2. I am even more surprised that my brain was like "no, you gotta chime in now."
    3. This thread is making me want to donate myself to science so y'all can cross-examine the hell out of me, because apparently I am nonexistent by what is said to be scientific standards. (Yes, I saw that my identity was a subject of this insanity. I didn't miss it one bit.)
     
    #58 AgenderMoose, Nov 26, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2016
  19. Irisviel

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    There has been too much research including brain scans done to study genders, if the non binary was real, they would have found evidence by now. It's just confation of gender roles with identity.

    I encourage you to prove unicorns aren't real. Once you realize you can't and therefore you need to accept unicorns exist, please revisit your argument where you call my reasoning a fallacy.
     
  20. AgenderMoose

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    You missed the point.

    Saying that something is not found in research doesn't mean it does exist or doesn't exist. It means the data is inconclusive.

    And also...no. Even though there has been a lot of research and we haven't found anything supporting it, unless you show me something that deliberately has evidence against it, we cannot draw a conclusion in either direction. So, with your...honestly really demeaning unicorn example, if you're saying we have no evidence for or against the existence of unicorns, it means we cannot confirm nor deny their existence. And, once again, science changes over time. There have been seeeeveral things published, several experiments conducted that completely contradict each other. Things change. So while we have no evidence for or against now, that could change in the future.

    And that's why I'm calling your ideology a logical fallacy. Because lack of evidence doesn't confirm nor deny a statement and the abilities of our technology and science are extremely limited so facts can change in the blink of an eye.

    Y'know, I was honestly understanding of the mods rather open interpretation of "there's no evidence for this, but okay as long as it suits you, stay safe" once I took a moment, but your "there's no evidence for this so you're not real" is excruciatingly painful for me to read. But whatever. If that's what you're sticking with, then I'll draw the line here. All I can say is I tried.
     
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