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General News LGBT News Islam in the West

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by Vega222, Feb 4, 2020.

  1. Vega222

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    Hello,

    What are your opinions about Islam? What will happen to the West with current policies and incidents?
    I think the West is too open about Islam and radical Islamists living in there. And that's very dangerous.

    What will happen if Islam becomes the largest religion in France or other countries in the west?
    I am just wondering why the west is allowing Radical Islam to grow there so easily.
    Perhaps you people don't know what it is like to live under Islamists' rules.

    And btw I do know I must not generalize Muslims. There are good moderate Muslims. But I'm afraid radicals are not like 10-20% of Muslims, It's much more.


    Mila: 'No regrets' for French teen targeted for criticising Islam
     
    #1 Vega222, Feb 4, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2020
  2. Lin1

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    I will answer your thread as a French person.

    What I think of Islam? It's a religion, I am not religious and would personally much rather religion seized to exist but I don't think differently about Islam than I do Christianity.

    What will happen to the West with current policies and incidents? What policies and incidents are you referring to? France is secular country, it has plenty of policies that keeps religion separated from the state. That being said, it doesn't stop people from misusing their religion to commit crimes, the terrorist attacks have been awful but considering France's history and involvement in other conflicts, I think we could hardly compare Muslim crimes to crimes committed from France by people of other religious background (Christians probably having committed the most crimes on French soil and abroad in French History).


    What will happen if Islam becomes the largest religion in France or other countries in the west? It won't happen. France is multicultural, it won't stop being but most people my generation aren't religious, some are muslim and follow Islam but very few are conservative muslims and even fewer are ever likely to become radical.

    ''I think the West is too open about Islam and radical Islamists living in there.''

    They aren't, France wouldn't give a Radicalized Muslim from Syria citizenship. That being said, people who committed the terrorist attacks from 2015 were FRENCH born, they just happened to become Muslim and radicalized at a later date. You can't take away people's citizenship and refusing people visas based on their religion would completely go against French values and our constitution. In which way do you feel France is encouraging radical Islamism?

    ''I am just wondering why the west is allowing Radical Islam to grow there so easily.
    Perhaps you people don't know what it is like to live under Islamists' rules.''

    Again, France is a secular country. It won't become an Islamist state. Religion is completely separated from laws. That is why laws prohibit religious attire at school, prohibit the Niqab in public spaces, prohibit teachers from talking about religion in anything else but factual terms and historical facts and why you won't ever hear the words " God bless France." From a president.


    Like the article explain, France has strict law regarding hate speech, which means hate speech against Muslim but also hate speech from Muslim against other religions or institutions. This girl didn't receive backlash because people protect muslims but because she made a (stupid) generalisation and rightly was told off for it. If someone said '' Judaism is a hateful religion'' they would have the same thing. When you are idiotic and make generalisation about an entire group of people you get told off for it and that's what happened.
     
    #2 Lin1, Feb 5, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  3. Vega222

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    I know a bit about the history of Europe and if I am not wrong, at some point people in France and the other countries started to hate the clerics or the church and its laws. I don't know exactly. But, I think something similar has happened here in Iran, As a result of 41 years of having clerics in charge. I think the clerics of Iran must be very afraid if they read the history of France.

    By letting them come in and live there. Too many.
    Those radical Muslims that come from Islamic countries and live in the west, while they hate the people (as infidels) and the West's values! While they want to establish an Islamic state in Germany or other countries and they say it openly.
    Why are you so sure? Then, why some stats say it will overtake? I heard Muslim families have a lot more children than a secular or a Christian family. So, Then what happens?
    Maybe they will become secular Muslims? hard to imagine.

    People won't receive death threats for insulting Christianity of Judaism's holy persons. There are almost no terrorists in other religions. Only Islam. That makes Islam a different religion in my view.

    To be clear, I was born Muslim but left it when I was 17. Have no religion, But like Christianity. Also, have a few good Muslim friends.

    Thanks for the response. I don't have enough information on the topic. But it doesn't make my assumptions wrong/right.
     
    #3 Vega222, Feb 5, 2020
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  4. PatrickUK

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    It may appear that western governments are doing nothing about radical Islamists, but that's really not true. Many Islamists are being monitored by the security services and some are being tracked by undercover police officers and imprisoned for inciting hatred and promoting extremism.

    The gravest danger comes from a reluctance to share information about radicals and extremists. If we elect leaders who are indiscreet and bombastic; leaders who conduct the business of government and diplomacy via Twitter and the gutter press, it erodes trust and undermines the goodwill that helps to keep people safe.
     
  5. Lin1

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    It does if your assumptions aren't backed up by facts.

    You say there is no terrorism in any other religion than Muslim.

    I would beg to differ, the only difference is that Christian crimes have never been referred by as ''terrorism'' (underlying and biased racism here as to why!) but here is a SHORT snippet as to crime committed by Christians:

    - Killing, rape and enslavement of native populations ( Africans, Mayans, Incas, Native Americans etc...)

    - French war of religions (War between Catholics and Protestant, 3 millions dead people)

    - Thirty years war (Again religious war between mostly Catholic and Protestant, 8 millions dead people)

    - WW2, killing of millions of Jews and minorities not necessarily sparked by Christianity but carried out by mostly Christian people.

    - Algerian war (killing, rape and torture of 250 000 Algerians by French soldiers and citizens in an attempt to have Algerian renounce their freedom and accept to remain a French Colony.)

    Have you heard of something called the Inquisition?

    It was the infamous persecution and torture of both Jews and Muslim during the 13th century.

    Those are a snippet of horrendous crime committed at the hands of christian, and the numbers of deaths is in MILLIONS, persecution and killing of jews and muslims at the hand of Catholics has ALWAYS been a thing, since as long as Christianism is a thing (a quick look at the bible will tell you that Judas/ the jews are portrayed as ultimate betrayers and killers of Jesus Christ).

    The number of people who died in France due to terrorism caused by Muslim since 2001: 232 people. There are more people dying due to drunk driving than there is people dying due to Islam or any other religion currently.

    Again, I would love to see the statistic that says we are taking a high amount of RADICAL muslims, I am sure the stats will only refer to muslims, because France, like Germany, have been taking in refugees from Syria who are escaping radical muslims, that being said, of course some radical muslims might still make their way through. You seem to assume that muslim, is unavoidably radical muslim.

    The majority of muslims in France are moderate ( I would know, I have lots of Muslim friends, went to school with plenty and grew up in muslim/african neighbourhoods), even if they have 10 kids each (which they don't), most of those kids will either grow up as moderate muslim following the steps and more likely as liberal Muslim due to growing up in a liberal environment (outside their house), a small amount might become radicalized but again, the likelihood of the entire muslim population turning radical and taking over government is almost impossible if not inexistant. If radicalization of an entire nation was that easy then Syria would be fully radical, yet despite ISIS going as far as beheading people right left and center, most Syrians never joined the movement and are still very much moderate Muslims.

    So why would you think that a system that didn't work in an already exclusively or almost exclusively Muslim country (Syria) didn't work, would work in a mostly Atheist country, with very strict laws regarding radicalisation like France?

    What you want (for some odd reasons) is for us to preventively reject visa applications from Muslims, just in case. It won't happen. It wouldn't be legal to do that, and would set a massive precedent. You can't punish someone for a crime they haven't committed. Even if someone was admitting to be a radical muslim, you wouldn't be able to punish him for it, until he did commit a crime, wanting to do so or trying to do so would be a legal nightmare, as it should.

    What if people started not wanting to let gay people in, in case it spread or whatever, it just can't happen.

    You have to have some ''benefice of doubts'' and not be condemn or judged until something warrant condenation and judgment.

    And as a French person, I am 100% happy with that. I hear way more vile stuff coming from Atheist/Catholics against Muslim and see way more prejudice and discrimination against them than I do from Muslims against Atheist/ Catholics when I am home.

    A big part of the terrorism in France is due to Muslims being targeted and not made to have much choice but resort to crime and therefore becoming easy target for radical folks who know they resent their situation. That's why the terrorist attacks killing over 100 people of the 232 people in the last ten years, were made by young FRENCH BORN muslims and not radicals from Syria or Irak. It's not people who COME OVER and hate it, it's people who are BORN here and hate it. So what's the solution?


    I understand your concerns but thinking Muslims are more dangerous or more likely to do horrible things than Christians is not understanding history and perpetrating prejudice that doesn't benefit anyone.
     
  6. Vega222

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    Of course. That is true about every assumption.

    You didn't have to list those crimes. I meant now in 2020. Islam needs major changes. Christianity and Judaism already have done that.

    About ISIS in Syria and Iraq, It caused many disasters. Syria, An ancient and beautiful country is literally destroyed (The government of Syria destroyed it, but ISIS had its role too). It worked in that way. It doesn't have to establish its state and survive. Anyway, ISIS is just one example of many. We have a Shite version of ISIS in Iran and they are ruling for 40 years. They were just like ISIS when they were revolutionaries at the beginning. Once they established their state and Islamic rules, They do their tortures and killings in the prisons. So, they are not like ISIS, the world thinks.
    And yeah, It survived because the world accepts them, Unlike ISIS. ISIS was just unlucky. :slight_smile:)
    Those "liberal" governments in Europe and the US have been and are too good to the Gender/Religious Apartheid in Iran. And it pains.
    It also pains when I see too many people with these disgusting beliefs can live in the west too. Stupidly, Wanting to make Europe a place like what they were fled from!

    And you don't think MAYBE that's because they're a minority and newcomers? You better compare the way Muslims treat infidels in their own countries with the way Europeans treat Muslims in Europe.

    Thanks for the info.
    We live under an Islamic state and we believe Radical Islam is like a dangerous virus. Iran were a secular country 40 years ago and look at what happened to it. (Of course, I know it was not as secular/irreligious as France, But it was free.)

    [​IMG]
     
    #6 Vega222, Feb 6, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  7. Vega222

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    Unfortunately, I haven't been to the west. But from what I hear from here, It makes me concern.
    The matter is too controversial and it's hard to give an opinion about what is right and what is wrong. If we take it hard, It may harm some innocent people. If we take it easy, The consequences can be harsh.
     
  8. Lin1

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    Again, it is not true though, plenty of Christian countries still commit crimes freely, conversion camps are still very much a thing in the US, now new laws are appearing making abortion illegal and likely to give you a life sentence for murder BECAUSE it goes against the Bible.

    Religions of all kind imposing their belief upon others isn’t exclusive to Islam, in fact here in the US it’s very much a Christian thing.

    My point with the 223 death from terrorism by Islamist in France is that French people most likely have killed way more non Radical citizens in the last decades than Muslim have killed a French people. Islam in Europe isn’t the threat that you portray it to be that’s why there are way more death by reckless driving a year than there’s been death by terrorism in two decades.


    Why aren’t you acknowledging the fact that the majority of terrorists in France are French born?
    You still haven’t told me how we could avoid terrorism when the great majority of Terrorists are French. What is your solution for that ? And how do you suggest we fix it?

    Extremism in all shapes is dangerous but living in the US, Christianity is the one that impact my life as a woman way more than Islamism do. For you in Iran, Islam is the threat but that’s not really the case in the West in terms of overall impact.

    And Muslims are NOT newcomers in Europe, not at all, they have been there for HUNDREDS of years. Muslims and European have a massive history, they didn’t just arrive in the last few decades. They have shaped a lot of Cities like Córdoba, Sevilla, Granada etc.. in Spain and plenty more.


    About European governments not getting involved in Iran. It’s true but there is a blurred line about getting involved in other countries affair without risking war or being seen as dictators ourselves.
     
    #8 Lin1, Feb 6, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  9. niewo

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    All religions are only made up of faults. Jealous people wanted control over others, and without science proving their arguments wrong at the time, naturally they made up whatever made the most sense; a sky man is telling me to tell you this! And you know what? They got it. They got just what they wanted, the suffering of everyone they don't like. I resent religion for various reasons, and one of them happens to be the hatefulness to the groups I'm a part of. (LGBT and women) While I will not hate or fear anyone for practicing any religion (unless it was some wild ass cult), using that belief to hurt others and infringe on their rights is where I draw the line. If it was just a story about a dude in the sky, yeah, whatever. I wouldn't care, but for centuries religion has been used as an excuse to be exclusionary and nasty. I see it in my grandparents. My grandma is homophobic and my grandpa is racist! While I don't think that Islam will become big in the west, terrorism is a real threat. This should not mean the discrimination of Muslims. This should not mean the discrimination of anyone. The people doing those things are just messed up. All Muslims I have ever met are so very kind, it's unfair to group them in with awful monsters. Christians have done much more harm to an even wider range of people. My general rule of thumb is don't hurt them till they hurt you. (I don't mean physically. I mean that until someone has done something to harm you, someone you know, or a group you are a part of, there's not much of a reason for you to be bothered by them.)

    Most Western nations have laws in place to keep religion out of their politics, and if some weasel tries to take over, the people have power and there's no way we'd ever let one or a few bad people cause our downfall. I can't think of a single person I've ever come into contact with who would comply. With any religion trying to take over. We know our freedoms, and a lot of places have had to fight to get and keep them. There's no way we'd let it go down the drain.

    I'm just babbling at this point, I'm not huge on politics anyway. I'll leave it to the adults. I just wanted to add my own two cents on some things.
     
  10. Vega222

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    I didn't say they are perfect. Every place and every religion has its morons. But if you want to say my rights as an ex-Muslim or women rights in Muslim countries are comparable to an ex-Christian or a woman in the West, Go on.

    As far as I understand, You simplify the matters that have many aspects and complexities and then come to a conclusion.
    One could say, Driving have killed much more than Atomic bombs. So, A-bomb is not a big threat.

    You seem to think you have all the right answers in this matter and they are unchallengeable.

    I don't know what exactly they should do. I don't have any strict belief in politics and religious matters. I am just expressing my concern because I don't wanna see something happen to the west.
     
    #10 Vega222, Feb 6, 2020
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  11. Aussie792

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    I think there is both oversensitivity and a refusal to be critical and sceptical of Islam, and on the other an often irrational belief that Islam poses existential threats to the west.

    Muslims in the west do tend to be more sexually conservative than other religious communities. At times this can look as horrifying as illicit female genital mutilation procedures practiced within poorly integrated communities. But in most cases, it looks more like a mild hostility to liberal sexual mores. That is not existential, it is not really even dangerous. It requires respectful engagement and being openly critical in a way that many people avoid for fear of sparking a backlash.

    Muslims are no more innocent and feeble lambs than they are wolves dressed as sheep. Where we would criticise anybody for holding particular beliefs or engaging in certain behaviour, it is appropriate to give Islamic communities the dignity of speaking to them frankly as people who share an equal stake in our societies and democracies. It is patronising to do otherwise. That is something I think that a lot of LGBT activists in particular have struggled with.

    Islam obviously has a radicalism problem that has fuelled terror. This is not the same problem as the one above. But statements like this are all too common:

    The majority of those you refer to have been French-born and French citizens. They have also been Muslims, disproportionately representing second-generation migrants from newer Muslim communites, rather than the well-established Algerian-French community. This is a trend that has been analysed in no small detail.

    There are, of course, many measures that most people support. At a broad level, these tend to involve on the preventative front better inclusion and integration practices in schools and active intervention to prevent ethnic enclaves that serve as overly-policed poverty traps with few opportunities. On the deterrence front, domestic intelligence and police services have been working out patterns of radicalism online and through prisons, and arresting those planning violence.

    To tar that with implications of unreasoned prejudice is unfair. It avoids the actual question.

    It is fair to point out that terror has many practitioners, including Christians or atheistic white nationalists. But it doesn't go any way toward answering why there is an Islamic terror problem, why it appeals to young, second-generation migrant men in particular and why the Islamic State was so successful at enticing thousands of young people from Europe to join a murderous cause.

    That is a complex issue. But it is plainly not reasonable to brush it under the rug, state it is all the consequence of prejudice (which I am not discounting as a contributing factor) and conclude that there is no problem at all. And it ultimately does Muslims the disservice of refusing to engage honestly with problems, the consqeuences of which fall heavily on Muslim people.
     
  12. Lin1

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    I am not comparing the situation of ex Muslims women in the Middle East with Western women.
    The topic is “Islam in the West” the west doesn’t have a history of Islam being the main religion and that’s what I am trying to explain. I know people who have grown up in a predominantly Muslim country and aren’t Muslim (and even people who are Muslim but not radical) have it much tougher.

    But what I am trying to convey is that IN THE WEST currently, and in the past, Christianity has (and still is) the main threat.

    I am not saying that radicalism isn’t a threat or a problem but that it for now, isn’t a problem to the scale you seem to feel it is. I am not saying I am right about everything, but you have said yourself you haven’t been to the west yet and you have mentioned my country as the main example and I feel I have a pretty good idea of what life is like in the West and especially in France, having grown up in France and lived in quite a lot of countries in the West (Spain, Italy, Germany, US and Australia). I have a step sister who is now a radical Muslim despite being a former feminist, so I do get that radicalization is a thing but again, my sister was born and raised in France in a liberal environment and strayed away from her roots, Muslim immigrants aren’t the reason why she radicalized.

    I am also not saying my views are unchallengeable, just pointing out that terrorism in France happens mostly by French people who often, weren’t even practicing Muslims until a few years before committing a terrorist attack and that therefore I don’t think that closing our borders to Muslims from abroad who obviously aren’t the root problems of the attacks would solve anything. To solve radicalization and terrorism in France the government need to study why people radicalize and what can be changed to make it less likely for people to see that path as appealing.


    In fact I am more than happy to be challenged that is why I have asked you a couple of questions, because your concerns are 100% valid but so far you haven’t actually said why you feel Islam is a genuine threat to Europe, Muslims have been around for a while and so far, in France at least there hasn’t been any laws changed in favor of Islam (quite the opposite actually) or anything else that would suggest that Islam is gaining overwhelming power and turning to be a threat. My comparison between drunk driving vs terrorism is to put it into perspective, you can hardly say something is an overwhelming threat when terrorism has killed the same amount of people in 20 years as something as stupid as reckless driving has killed in 2 years.

    atomic bomb is a different matter because atomic bombs kill way more people at once than reckless driving ever could, it causes health issues for years afterwards and is, on top of a massive destruction weapon, and incredible health and ecological hazard.


    I think you are comparing the rise of Radical Islam within already Muslim territories (Iran, Syria, Irak etc...) and it’s consequences (obviously terrible) and the rise of Radical Muslims in western territories that happen to be predominantly Christians or Atheist, which would be much harder if not near impossible to achieve because Islam isn’t the norm here and seeing how fervently people fight the right to wear an Hijab FOR Muslim
    people in France and trying to make laws about it, you would know that it’s almost impossible for radical islamism to impose itself in Western Europe without extreme backlash and fights from the great majority of the nation. Extreme right parties (anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant/ racist parties) have been on the rise in the world and Europe, the extreme right French parties have been rising in power in the last couple of years and a lot of the laws they want to implement are anti-Muslim (closing all halal and Kosher shops, prohibiting the Hijab etc...) so the likelihood of radical Islam rising in a country that is increasingly rejecting Muslims is unlikely in my opinion. It’s much easier to impose Shariah laws in Iran or Afghanistan where the population already follow the basics of Islam and where the government is majoritarily Muslim than it would be to force an atheist or Christian government and population to go against their belief and culture and even just try and make them wear the hijab.

    I am not dismissing what you are saying btw but just letting you know that maybe you see it as more of a threat because you saw the rise of islamism in your country to a massive scale but don’t fully acknowledge that it was an easier to do in Iran that already have basis of Islam implemented than France or Europe which doesn’t.
     
  13. Lin1

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    I agree with you that prejudice isn’t the only reason for a rise in radicalization in France but it is a massive factor. Most Muslim people I know live in the same neighborhoods I, as a mixed race girl, grew up in. Which is what we call “ Cités” or better known as “ The hood” to Americans, those aren’t neighborhoods that pre-destine you to great things, especially as a young Muslim man. That is why in America in the same type of neighborhoods that (“coincidentally”) happen to be mostly inhabited by black and Latinos you almost inevitably find gang activities, crime, drugs etc...
    Most people who have done or will do jail time in France come from Cités, why is that? Because unfortunately while France is multicultural our work force isn’t really, at a school you will find the same ratio of black/Muslim/white, yet in most workplace you won’t find the same ratio, despite having anti -discrimination laws, Muslim and black people are still discriminated against. In France, unlike in the US, you are supposed to add a picture to your CV/Resume (on top of your address) automatically making minorities less likely to be hired.

    Kids who grow up surrounded by crimes are more likely to commit crimes, it’s just a fact. And when you are treated like a Pariah and someone come along and offer you to become a hero by turning into a martyr and making French people payback for how they have treated you and made you feel, it’s not that hard to see the appeal for a young Muslim guy who feels he has been hard done by and believes there is a life after death to pull the trigger and jump at the opportunity to die a martyr and finally get the recognition he feels he deserves from his peers.

    Young kids/teens/adults in the Cités have utter rage at their situation and complete disrespect and lack of trust of authorities/police/government who have all in a way failed them, as they grow up and old in a system that is set against them from the start. That’s the type of environment extremism thrive in, humans by nature need to feel a sense of belonging and if some people can’t find it in their country of birth, the sometimes find it in a religion.

    it’s often second generations because first generations know what it’s like to live in a Muslim country and often appreciate the freedom the west give them, they have had to work their ass off to get to where they are at and don’t idealize life in an Islamist state. While their children, on the other hand, take the freedom of the west for granted and dream of a world where they are the majority instead of the minority, they focus on the flaws of the place they live in because they have no understanding of the life in their parents home country and the reality of it. It’s easy to turn against your country when you feel hard down by and that what a lot of young Muslim/black French born men (and women) feel like in France.

    Discrimination isn’t the only factor for radicalization, in fact it’s only one of many factors but until France stop alienating a good chunk of its youth and start providing REAL solutions, there will be radicals rising in the corners of French cities and French people turning against their country in the name of Islam (or other religions).

    Radicalization is a problem the same way Gang violence is a massive problem in the US the problem is that you can’t keep putting people in the same situation (black people living in bad neighborhoods, parents not around because they need to work 3 jobs to even provide the basics etc... kids therefore left to their own devices during the day in not the safest environment) and expect different results. The French government like the US government is ultimately reaping off the end results of decades of alienations and until they acknowledge that and start working on real solutions to fix the issue at its chore, it’s unlikely we will see a real change in terms of behavior and choice people take.


    Again I have a step-sister who radicalized and a brother that has gone done the wrong path, I know both those things are real problems and I also know they ultimately very much are responsible for their life choices and I hold them both 100% accountable but I also know the conditions and background surrounding both their choices and in both cases I definitely feel there was a failure of the government at various stages.


    I am mixed race and in France, despite the multiculturality, the reality of my mum (who is white) and her side of the family and the one of my dad (who is black) is appallingly different when it shouldn’t be.
     
    #13 Lin1, Feb 7, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2020