Is homosexuality a sin?

Yep, sure is a sin, and an abomination at that. We also have to kill anyone who works on a Sunday and stone any women who aren't virgins on their wedding days, for the Bible tells me so!

 

The scary ironic thing with these religious nutjobs is that Jesus? Took in outsiders of all sorts. He was the CHAMPION of outsiders. These religious types would crucify him if he came back.

 

I wasn't really raised in any religion but half of my family consists of very religious country Christian folks.
I've never seen religion in that way. I think homosexuality is not a sin and I believe that you should be who you are.
As, I believe some others have said, why would God create homosexuals if this is a sin?
I believe in God who's nice and loves us all and wants us to be happy. I admit, I do not know the Bible good enough, but this is in what I believe.

Love, for me, is something wonderful and something what everyone deserves, no matter if they are gay, straight, bisexual or anything else.

 

"God's probably not real, so just be happy"

I'm sorry, but all those biblical scholars can read an interpret the bible all they want to show that homosexuality is a sin but the fact is that the bible clearly states its wrong, not to be practiced ect. Do you know why? Because the bibile is a hodgpodge of writings and manifestos from a bunch of ancient religious leaders who thought they had the world figured out when in fact they were ignorant beyond belief by today's standards.

Everyone can live by the credo, treat others as you would be treated, without bringing the bible into the discussion.

 

actually kind of the point is we all would. or at least in fear of getting killed ourself deny we were best buddies. guilty as charged me.

---------- Post added 4th Jul 2012 at 02:13 PM ----------

as for me, i been hated and bullied and judged since birth. so i am not interested in plesing those who will judge me anyways wrongly. but i am very much concerned #1 i show my respcet to my Creator by trying to do what is right so he will be proud of me, and #2 be sure i do not lead others astray. so if gay is good i want to preach that and if it is sinful desire to not act upon i want to know for myself so i can ask God to help me with that. truth sets men free. God asks us to seek truth. that is a good God, he didnt make robots he made people free to choose right and wrong and learn. i wana do more right and make earth better.

 

Then, to be honest, you will never know the truth unless you encounter God face to face and he answers all of your questions.
Going further into your response, what is right or wrong according to God? What's respectful or disrespectful? Do we actually know his opinion? Or do we know the opinions of it's so called followers who echo their own opinions?

 

Exactly. This is why so many have fought so hard on both sides of the choice / not a choice argument. It's why so many people who discriminate and promote bigotry use the term "lifestyle" - you choose a lifestyle. You don't choose your sexual orientation. In the end, every creditable scientific fact came down on our side, proving that it isn't a choice.

We don't know the exact CAUSE of homosexuality - yet. We also don't know the exact cause of heterosexuality, either. However, we know with absolute certainty that it isn't a choice.

That's the reason I started my argument there. If you accept that being LGBT isn't a choice, and you also accept that God created you - then by extension you must also believe that God created you simply to punish you if you believe being LGBT is a sin. If that is the case, then God cannot be a benevolent deity, and if God exists and isn't benevolent then we've all got bigger problems than being LGBT - because everyone (straight and gay alike) is screwed.

 

Just to throw off all the people claiming "why would god create gay people if it was a sin?", god created pediphiles and murderers as well. Plenty of people have inherent characteristics that most would call "evil".

 

Dogma would dictate that it's a sin, yeah. But the dogma is the part of religion i like to call, "the crock of shit".

 

Hi, yeah well that is a difficult situation as there are some parts in the bible that is in direct opposite of what is said. I speak of gay and lesbian relationships that the bible describes. one such example is King David, before he was made king, he had sexual relations with his best friend.

The thing about the bible though, is that in the 10 commandments is what determines if you are living in sin or not. The rest is just guides to help you. The reason why pork is against God's word, is because it's an animal shunned by God due to the fact that spirits, and daemons uses pigs, the Jewish strongly believe in this. It also describe on how your house should be build, which side your toilet and bed must be facing as well as your front door and all other things in this sort of lines.

The thing is what I tell people though is this. God said in his word, He knows everyone before they are even born. So if God is really against GLBT, why did He made us this way, when He clearly has the power to change that before we are born. As it happens, He also states that he loves each and everyone. So it means He loves you the way you are, He knows what you will become, what you will do and who you are going to spend your live with.

I would advice not to listen to preachers and pastors that much, as most of them tell you things of the bible in a way they understand it, it doesn't matter if the paster or priests view is incorrect or not.

 

If someone wants the cold hard truth: The Bible doesn't actually mention anything about gay people at all. (Predictable response: "Huh?! What?! <Insert Biblical passages to disprove that argument.>")

The reason is pretty simple. Homosexuality was not even understood until our modern times. The understanding of sexuality differs from culture to culture, and changes with time, but the Bible is in no way talking about how we currently understand it.

We see homosexuality as a separate sexual orientation to heterosexuality. The Bible doesn't see it that way at all.

How does the Bible view it? Well, there is a reason that it mostly only comes up when it talks about idolatry. You see, in those cases, idolatry is the real sin. When it starts to mention things like same gender sexual acts, they're saying that this is (more often than not) caused by idolatry.

That's because their view of homosexuality was as follows: Everyone is straight, and everyone experiences lust. Lust is bad. Someone who is having sex with someone of the same gender is CLEARLY overflowing with so much lust, that the opposite gender is no longer enough for them! They've been turned into sex-crazed maniacs! They no longer have a full hold over their senses, and have lost complete control of themselves!

This line of thinking is on par with the Bible talking about the world being flat, and that someone suffering from schizophrenia is possessed by a demon. It just reflects the authors limited understanding of their world and the culture of the time.

The Bible in general hates sex, though if you actually read it, the Bible spends virtually ALL of its time going after heterosexuals. That makes sense, of course, considering they didn't consider or understand that homosexuality was something separate. Had they understood that fact, then it is unclear what their reaction would be... it would either be to hold male-male homosexuality as superior to heterosexuality (as some other cultures did), or it would have been to condemn it outright.

The hatred of sex in the Bible is actually a byproduct of the extremely misogynistic culture of the time. Women were viewed, largely, as extremely unclean and impure individuals. Thus, having sex with a woman risks her tainting you with her impurity. You see this in the extreme purification rituals required for women, particularly when they're menstruating.

They likely would have had a lot in common with the modern day Taliban when it came to discussing issues around women. Of course, there was a huge diversity of views among the Jews of the time as well, but the culture as a whole was extremely misogynistic, and that was the prevailing world view among the various Jewish sects.

You can see similar views in other cultures in which women were viewed extremely inferior to men. An examination of ancient Greek culture shows how they elevated male-male love over that of female-male love, primarily due to their view of females as inferior.

But even the ancient Greeks didn't understand sexual orientation as we understand it today. They didn't distinguish sex along gender lines, but rather along the lines of pitcher and catcher. It was fine to fuck a boy, and there was no shame for the boy in this - in fact, it could result in an elevated status considering who was doing the fucking. However, once he started to grow a beard it became a social taboo. He was considered to be a man, and a man should never be penetrated because penetration is for women. It was perfectly fine for two men to have sex, but one - the bottom - would be viewed in a taboo light. As a result, such relationships among adult men penetration wasn't preferred if they considered each other "equals", and what usually resulted was one guy screwing another guy between the thighs.

It was all about who was being "masculine" and avoiding being "feminine" (sound familiar?). All of this is rooted, of course, in misogynistic thinking. I.E. the belief that what is generally considered "feminine" is weak, bad, corrupt, or tainted.

 

Aldrick, Thank you, loved your thoroughly explanation!
It really clears a lot of things!
And its also good to hear from an outside of religion view!
And it was really well written!

 

Well then I ask:

- What's more important: what some prophets/books of the Bible say you are and aren't allowed to do, or the general ideal Jesus preached which was to love everyone?
- On that note, what's more important: following these "rules" even if it means hating on other people because they aren't, or loving everyone anyways?

I have no problem with religious texts and doctrines telling believers what they should and should not do in order to live "good lives". But I think mindlessly following them "because they said so" rather than taking it with a grain of salt is well... what leads people to see those "extremists" and other similar figures. Religion is certainly important in forming a moral code, but it shouldn't be the only component, in my opinion.

I don't know; I guess this is why I don't like discussions on religion, even when they're civilized like this. Religion is such an intangible, belief-based thing that there is no factual "right or wrong". It's all about what I believe vs. what you believe. I could sit here for days and try to convince you (in circles) about why I think religion is more about loving everyone for who they are and basically living in God's image, but I can't make you believe that. Religion is such a deeply personal thing that, while having others' opinions is good, you have to figure it out for yourself. At the end of the day, when you leave the Earth and go to purgatory (or any other equivalent) and are put up for judgement, it'll be you and God. So it's up to you two to determine what's "right" and "wrong... I think.

 

Hey Aldrick, you might not want to share all of that with Christian homophobes.

Logic and context doesn't fare well with them.

---------- Post added 5th Jul 2012 at 02:54 PM ----------

 

I've had to ask myself this question over and over again for years. Growing up as a Roman Catholic, I was always told that homosexuality was a sin that could be repressed if you loved God enough. The scary thing is, my immediate family is nowhere near as religious as the rest of my extended family. They're all southern Baptists, 7th day adventists, etc.

Ultimately, I've realized that there are certain people you will never be able to convince that homosexuality is NOT a sin, so if that's what you're trying to do, it may be best not to put too much effort into persuading someone else. If you're battling with this question internally, I can I have been in the same position as you (in fact, I think I still am some days..). Personally, in my years trying to search for the right answer, I've found that it IS NOT a sin. There are tons of resources out there to help, if you're interested. Soulforce was already linked to you, but I'd like to suggest 2 documentaries that really helped me out a lot:

"For the Bible Tells Me So"
"Fish Out of Water"

Both of these films are available on Netflix if you have that and they really go into detail about religion, homosexuality, and the Bible. I'm trying my best not to offer too much personal opinion (you're asking a biased group after all, lol...), but you shouldn't feel guilty for being gay. It's not something you asked for, God made you that way, so why would he punish you for that? You're letting doubt set in because of what you've heard PEOPLE say. But do you honestly think Jesus Christ would've treated you the same way or said the same things as those people? I don't think so.

Anyway, good luck (*hug*)

 

That's because their arguments are not rooted in either scripture or logic. They are rooted in hatred and bigotry, and from there they've turned to scripture to justify their already preexisting beliefs.

If they didn't use religion as their shield, they'd find something else; perhaps they'd try and hide behind cultural traditions, or they'd turn to pseudo-science. No matter what, they're going to look for a way to justify their views, because it allows them (in their minds at least) to be absolved of the consequences for holding those views. "I'm just following the word of God!" "I'm just defending our cultural heritage!" "The science is clear on this matter!"

I don't want to paint everyone with a broad brush though. I've certainly known Christians that were uncomfortable with the traditional teachings of the Church. In their hearts they knew it was wrong, but lacked the knowledge to challenge it either through scripture or logic.

I've also known some out-and-out hateful people who get a surge of glee when some "fagot" is beat up, gets HIV, or is murdered. And in the same breath these people will claim to be dutiful Christians.

Of course, I do believe that even the most bigoted person has the ability to change their views. It doesn't happen often enough, but it does happen.

However, just to go even further than I've already gone, I'll say that the debate is wrongfully conceived in the first place because it begins with a flawed premise. It begins with the assumption that something is wrong with us - "Is homosexuality a sin?" - rather than with the individual making the argument in the first place.

This is the problem with Christians not reading scripture. A simple reading of the Gospels will show EXACTLY how to deal with such individuals, and how to measure their words and accusations.

The entirety of Chapter 7 of the Gospel of Matthew is pretty much dedicated to this very task.

Matthew 7:1-5
Judging Others
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Jesus makes clear here in Matthew 7:1-5 that no Christian is to judge someone else unworthy, because they themselves are not without sin. And if any Christian does judge someone else, then the consequence of that is that they will be judged in return by the very same measure that they used to judge the other person.

So if a Christian comes up to you, and tells you that you are evil, sinful, and unworthy of their God - then they in turn (if they believe the Gospels to be true) - will be judged equally evil, sinful, and unworthy of their God.

Matthew 7:7-12
Ask, Seek, Knock
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

"Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is the very foundation upon which the New Covenant is built. Here, Jesus clears away all of the old laws by summing them up as follows: "do to others what you would have them do to you."

He wipes away all the preconditions to finding God and salvation. All you have to do is ask. And the key here is that there are no preconditions. So, if someone were to say to you that you cannot be both Christian and gay, then they are creating a precondition that does not exist.

Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow and Wide Gates
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Here Jesus warns the faithful against taking the easy road, the road that EVERYONE else is currently walking on. Those who truly find God are those who swim against the tide, not with it. This is why Jesus spends most of his time with outcasts, precisely because they are not following the same path as everyone else. By virtue of being outcasts - they can't, that gate is closed to them and they must follow the narrow path, and he provides them with that path.

Matthew 7:15-20
True and False Prophets
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Here Jesus is making it ABSOLUTELY clear how to measure anything that anyone has ever said that claims to be from the desires of God. Thus, the simple question: "Does it bear good fruit or bad fruit?"

When someone says that homosexuality is sinful, you don't even have to debate them on the merits. Simply ask that question. Does that teaching bear good fruit or bad?

Well let's examine it. We know that teaching that homosexuality is wrong harms gay people; it causes anxiety, social isolation, fear, depression, and in some cases leads to both attempted and successful suicide. So, I'd say that fruit there is pretty rotten.

Someone brought up murder and pedophilia. Well, let's examine those things. Murder obviously harms both the individual killed as well as all who loved and cared of that individual. So, it seems pretty safe to say that murder is wrong. Pedophilia causes harm to children, so I'd say that it is also wrong. Comparing these to homosexuality, which does not hurt those involved, I'd say that these things are not comparable, and that homosexuality is not wrong.

That's it. You don't even need to go any further than that.

Matthew 7:21-23
True and False Disciples
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

All those so-called Christian people, who condemn you for being gay, who endlessly display their faith (and Jesus had plenty to say about that too), well he just summed up what they are - evildoers. He has flatly said that not everyone who worships him is going to enter into Heaven.

How many of the very people who spit upon you, who condemn you for being gay, stand tall and display their own so-called piety publicly? How many LOVE to tell you how pious they are, how righteous they are, and just how great Christians they are - compared to you.

Well, Jesus had already spoke about those folks back in Chapter 6 of the Gospel of Matthew.

Matthew 6:5-8
Prayer
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

Matthew 6:1-4
Giving to the Needy
"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

So, what is it with all this hiding your faith nonsense? This is one of my favorite parts of the Gospels. It seems that this has been skipped by so many Christians, and it is easy to understand why once you understand the reason behind it.

You see, when they make public displays of righteousness and piety in front of others, they are - more often than not - actually worshiping the people they're praying before - not to God. Why? How can this be? Because their acts of righteousness are not genuine, it's to be recognized by OTHER people for THEIR piety, THEIR righteousness. In so doing, they are not serving God, they are serving themselves.

And as Jesus said, they have already received their reward in full, and will have no reward from their Father in heaven.

Pretty much the entirety of Chapter 6 of the Gospel of Matthew is dedicated to this theme.

Stop and think about this for a moment.

Here are people telling you that you are evil and sinful, and to do this they hunt down obscure remote passages of the Bible which they then wrench out of context to promote an already preexisting belief. However, these same people ALWAYS - let me repeat myself here - ALWAYS neglect an entire chapter out of one of the Gospels that is directed at them.

What does it say about them? What does it say about someone when they're so eager to condemn and judge you, when they cannot even be bothered to follow their own Messiah's unambiguous instructions? What does it say about them?

You may be wondering what Jesus means when he says phrases like "do not be like the hypocrites" - you might be asking - "Who are these hypocrites he's talking about?"

He's talking about the religious people of his day. Pretty much the ENTIRETY of the Gospel is dedicated to attacking the faithful. Jesus wasn't bothering the pagans, the Romans, he wasn't screwing with anybody but his fellow faithful.

And he wasn't going after just anybody, he was attacking the very leadership itself. He's calling them hypocrites, and telling you to not be like them.

Let's dance on over to Chapter 23 of the Gospel of Matthew, shall we?

Matthew 23:1-11
A Warning Against Hypocrisy
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

"Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called 'Rabbi' by others.

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Matthew 23:13-39
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.' You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

That is the ENTIRETY of Chapter 23, the Gospel of Matthew. The entirety of the Chapter is spent condemning the faithful, in particular the leaders of the faithful, of his day. He could not have been more clear on his feelings toward them - his utter contempt for them - had he spit in their faces.

Is it any wonder then, that these are the very same people who had him crucified in the end? That's your answer.

And now I ask you, what do you think Jesus would say to so many of his faithful followers if he were here today? Would he not say the very same words? Do they not commit the very same sins?

So, I'll end where I started. You have people who claim to be Christians who condemn you. You question yourself, and wonder if you are sinful, perhaps evil by nature. These people make you feel like dirt and trash. They make you feel unworthy and tell you that you cannot be a Christian.

They base all of their claims on a handful of sentences that they had to wrench out of context in the first place.

Take a good long look at what I've written. Everything in italics is directly from the very book they hold dear to their heart. Their Savior said nothing about you, not even in passing reference, but he had a hell of a lot to say about them.

I think Jesus said it best himself: "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

If you ask me, I think they have more than just a single fucking plank in their eye. It's more like they've got an entire lumberyard on their face.