Internalized transphobia...

What do you think, chercheur, has a human soul (for lack of better word) has it gender?
I often think about those silly cartoons here you can see just a pair of eyes floating in the air. If we were just the floating eyes or minds, would we have a gender? Or do all gender problems start with body and the role in society?

 

lol, interesting, you used the opposite approach than I had always used. Yeah, that way it makes sense.

---------- Post added 18th Oct 2013 at 09:13 AM ----------

And to your problem, perhaps someone who identifies as genderfluid could give you the answer...
Maybe you feel to be "somewhere in the middle"? You say that you are almost androgynous now why doesn't it work for you either?

 

Well, of course if your goal is to become cisgender and to accept nothing less, you're going to wind up disappointed; it's like gay men who desperately wish to one day wake up straight, early on in their acceptance. It'll NEVER happen, though they can try as they'd like, and live a half-fulfilled life (lie?) for years, and in some cases, a lifetime.

In your case, you won't have a uterus, ovaries, or XX chromosomes, but then, there are plenty of ciswomen who also don't, either by birth or circumstances. I think you're confusing sex and gender; they're *not* the same, even if bigots tell you otherwise! There wouldn't be a distinction between the two if that were the case.

I think a major part of being comfortable with your gender, sex, and presentation is being comfortable as who you are, instead of what you are. How many cismen and women truly get to see from the eyes of two very different and unique societies? It's for this reason that the experiences and stories of transsexuals are so intriguing and inspiring to others, even non-LGBT: they can bridge the gap between those who think they have nothing in common with someone else because of secondary sex characteristics.

Suppose you one day woke up as a female-bodied person. Would your past suddenly disappear, or would it stay with you for the rest of your life? The problem is you see yourself as a "boy who wants to be female" when it should be "a female born in a boy's body", assuming you are a transwoman.

Is it living a lie if you're simply doing what you can to ease dysphoria and live like you were born to, or to mold yourself into an image that is more "acceptable" in the eyes of society? Also, would you say you're better off now than you were before, as Stef? I know, it's not a fair question, and I don't expect the answer to be clear-cut, since the circumstances aren't, but maybe they can get the wheels turning in your head a bit.

 

It almost seems like you feel guilty, for having "deceived" society with your choice(s) to transition and/or detransition. Perhaps there is even a bit of envy at gay cis men who don't have to deal with your issues, but either way, you seem to have these fixed ideas on what defines gender... they're really not "opposites" at all, but part of one giant kaleidoscope, if you will. We each have traits of each, and if you want to start speaking biologically, we *mostly* have the same parts, just reconstructed in a way that makes procreation possible between the two sexes.

Trust me, there are plenty of cismen and women, both gay and straight, who feel disconnected from the rest of society for one reason or another, so you're not alone in your struggle, even if less people do walk in your shoes. So what is this really all about: finding something you can live with, or that others can? You can't please everyone in the end, and eventually, you're going to have to make huge steps, regardless of possible consequences, since the benefits will outweigh the costs, for *you*.

But you said before that you've identified as female since four, and not to throw you in a loop or anything, but I've heard of plenty of transfolk who identified as simply gay or lesbian for a while, but rarely of gay men and lesbians going from a trans identity to cis permanently. Not that it can't be done, but I get the feeling you're heavily repressing a part, or parts, of yourself. Why would someone "adopt" a female identity from an early age and for most of their lives if there wasn't some form of dysphoria going on in the first place? At some point you decided you "wanted" to just be a gay male... but even that didn't fit quite right. You're still grappling with gender issues.

Let me ask you something else: do you believe in your heart that you're simply male/female, or do you think there's a chance you might be a non-binary transgender? For me, the ideal would to have shape shifting abilities, but since that will never happen, all I can do is altar my outer appearance, and the appearance I'd like would be similar to androgynous model Andrej Pejic.

Just who are you trying to convince, Stef/Seth/Cher? I get that transition is scary, either way, and in fact, the idea alone was enough to send ME over the edge and to a psyche ward. There was a lot of other stress going on at the time, sleepless nights, severe depression, and so on, and that was the final straw, so to speak. Either way, I'm convinced at this point that it's better to live your life honestly and to the fullest, because you never know which day will be your last. Call it cheesy, but there are too many people who die with regrets, and I don't want to be one of them.

Another thing... gender has always been something of a fascination for me, and I've always admired transwomen for living authentically, regardless of what anyone else thinks or says, and in fact, saw them as a type of "evolved" person. Well, they do "evolve", to become their true selves, after all the mental beatings they take, only to rise up again, with their heads held high. They have a certain resilience most natal women can only hope to possess.

 

I can't believe I didn't think of this until now, but have you considered that you might be bigender? Your perception of gender is very similar to the one other person I remember identified as bigender and expressed it day by day.

On the other hand, you might be agender? Have you tried talking to Owen about it?

I'm also going to second the notion that it seems you feel some sort of guilt about it through all that society says about trans* people, ie. that we're people just grabbing labels for the hell of it, that we're trying to be something we're truly not (which surely isn't the case), etc.

I think the first question you should ask yourself is "Who are you?" And then after that question is answered, ask "Do you have a gender?" And if the answer is "yes", then ask what gender, instead of the reverse.

The other thing about gender is that it doesn't need to have a label, despite what society says and asks.

 

*scratches chin* Did you know, upon a time, I too envied cis gay men (and lesbians)? They seemed a lot more free from the ridiculous gender binary, and there was room for one or the other to be the passive partner in the bedroom. Not so much with women, or at least the ones I had been with, who would have it only one way, and one that didn't come naturally to me at all. Bisexuality is another matter entirely, but definitely, there are different dynamics that go on with each, sometimes similar, but never completely the same.

We're definitely more than the sum of our parts, but like Ryuichi has asked, have you considered bigender or agender identities? The world of gender, like sexuality, is far from black-and-white, even if others think otherwise. You say you feel fake when you're Stef, and similarly when you're Seth, so what would feel "real" and what would it take to get there? A part of me wants to ask why you'd want to be female if you were content being a male, and I'd hate to think this is only because you feel you'd never find a partner one way or another...

And like you, I can't think of a time when I explicitly HATED my body or anything, and instead felt more of an apathy. If I *had* to work out, I'd do as little as possible to keep a more sleek, feminine shape. Hair would always be kept on the longer side. Gender neutral clothing was preferable to strictly male. There was also identification with certain female characters, especially those on the tomboyish, professional, or quirky side -- not at all your stereotypical damsels in distress!

Anyway, just know that there is plenty of room for all genders in this world, and that this battle is being fought internally -- most people wouldn't think twice, and probably assume you another cisboy, like they assumed you cisgirl, before. Your post, it sounds a lot like what many transmen online have expressed: the jealousy, the frustration, etc.

Perhaps too much focus and attention are being given to gender alone, and if you haven't even discovered who you are, how can you figure out where you fit in society, involving gender or not? Seriously, there's an entire world out there for exploring, outside of these issues, to occupy your mind with while you're still figuring things out. Sometimes I wonder if EC speeds up the process of self-discovery perhaps a lot faster than some members are ready to handle. This whole fixation for labels, answers, roles... some food for thought.

 

Just throwing something out there.

I too put a lot of time and energy and money into making myself something I wasn't. And believe me, as much as I thought I was passing going in, once I really got started I really felt like a fraud, especially around a lot of other people that were doing better than me. What the hell was I thinking? Yeah a lot of people treated me like I was what I said I was. Gave me all sorts of compliments. But I knew better inside.

I stuck with it anyway, graduated with a BS, and became an engineer, and landed a job that supports their employees going back for their masters.

What I'm saying is, the dysphoria is a physical part of you. It's part of your sex, same as any other organ that gets affected by testosterone, estrogen, and progesterone. But your gender is a part of you you. Even if you woke up tomorrow and you just didn't feel dysphoria, you still grew up trans. Those experiences are real to you. They're a part of you.

And you're right. Maybe you missed out on some things people born women get to experience. You still certainly didn't grow up socialized completely male though. If your childhood was anything like mine, you missed out on a lot of things boys are supposed to experience too, and got a lot of experiences most boys don't for better or worse.

And what you do about it is up to you too. That's not an illusion, it's just improving your quality of life. Your transition - and heck, detransition, that had to have been just as hard and I'm betting people gave you some shit over that too - that's something you earned. Those of us that have surgeries, and catch up on years of socialization as adults, and give up feeling safe and our old identities, we've earned our right to be who we say we are, just the same as my BS degree means I get to call myself an engineer.

And honestly I'm talking big but I have tons of transphobia too. Don't want to trigger anything or weird people out, but up until this last century the best people like me had was getting everything chopped off and maybe some herbal medicine that may or may not work. We've got records of trans people in ancient Greece, but "the surgery", it is new. So whenever people talk about how "new" all this is, that really sets off all those feelings you described in me. And I start thinking about it like a first world problem. I would still be trans if I were in the third world, I would just be too scared to do anything about it. And I'm still not sure I'm going to get anything past orchie myself to be honest, mostly because I don't have that kind of money, and honestly if my hormones were balanced and I felt alright, I know I'm a woman inside. But what would that make me? A woman with a penis? A castrated guy? And then people throw words like mutilated around. TONS of transphobia, we've all got it, just not all of us admit it.

But the thing is, other people aren't me. They don't want the same things I want out of life. To them, removing that part of them is the worst thing they can imagine. To me it would be a dream come true. They have their own goals and I have mine. Other people are very good at figuring out how to get you to be like them. I would be miserable if listened to other people. Sometimes it's well meaning advice, sometimes it's just venom. Whatever it is, it's theirs. I know what I need to do, and life is a million times easier now that I'm not fighting myself. Whoever I am, whatever cards I've got, I'm just going to play them. And you know what? If someone doesn't understand? Screw 'em.

So I guess my coping mechanism as you put it, is just continuing to focus on who I want to be, taking steps to make that happen, and screw the rest. Because there are honestly just no good answers once you start asking yourself those kinds of questions anyway. Eventually you'll just talk yourself into feeling fake or like you don't deserve to be a woman or like you're just putting on a show.

That I think is how transphobia works. You're really just deep down not going to accept anything but the shittiest thing you've ever heard someone say about you as real. That's not being realistic, that's being pessimistic. You can do the same thing to yourself with being gay. It's just that everyone's more used to it, and... well here. This is what the exact same thing sounds like with being gay. Don't read if you're having a bad day, it's all stuff we heard before but still the kind of thing I anyway come here to get away from, but

Spoiler

Don't you have free will? Can't you just decide not be with (guys/girls)? Your marriage isn't a real one, you know; marriage is between a man and a woman, period. You know you're going to hell right?

Etc, etc. See we recognize that stuff as things bigots say now. But I guarantee you there are people out there saying those kinds of things to themselves, and making themselves feel lousy about being gay, even today.

So I guess what I'm saying is, I do see and feel all those things. I just don't dwell on them. Maybe to some people I'm not a real woman. Maybe they have good reasons to feel that way. I just don't think about it. I do think about who I want to be, and just try to be that person.

And for what it's worth, Seth or Steph, I think you're a pretty cool person

 

I absolutely agree with cassie, however unfortunately, that we all have some internalized transphobia. Hell, it kills me to admit it, but I used to really get freaked out when the topic was brought up, partly because why and how could anyone do that to themselves, but mostly because I was scared because I felt that way, I had the desire to change my body and live as a gay man, and at the time it made me angry because I didn't think I could, girls can't become guys, and sad because I didn't want to have to deal with the feelings I had. So I hid that part of me away, spent years playing dressup and pretending I was just a girl, feeling more and more distant from the real world and my real life all the time.

And I understand too, what you're saying about feeling fake, feeling like you can't be a woman because you weren't socialized as one. That sort of thing gets to me every day. Sure, when I'm alone I might feel ok, but as soon as I'm out in public? Also, I look like I'm about twelve, and get called a lady everywhere I go. So who am I trying to fool, I'm no guy. But in the back of my mind, this concept of gender and presentation plagues me, almost constantly sometimes. Why is that? If I'm obviously not a guy, but not a girl either, then what am I?

 

It is understandable. My gf who is transitioning has the same fears as you. There will always be parts of your body that you will not love. We all go through it. I thinker when you can accept that the transition wont be 100% what you want you will be happy

 

I think I understand what you're saying, but you need to realize that, yes, transgenders aren't cis, we shall NEVER be cis, but that doesn't make me me less of a 'real' man or a transwoman any less of a girl. I mean, some cis men aren't even BORN with a penis or testicles while they are bio male. Does that make them any less of a 'real' man? I hope this helped.