I think I might have ruined things forever...my life is such a mess

Checking in, were you able to talk to him tonight?

 

Man.. that's some crazy shit!!!

Honestly, you're going to get so many opinions from everyone on here supporting you..but damn, it's that kind of situation that can't be avoided when it involves two dudes. From the looks of it, he's really buried in the closet and I don't think you can push him out of it with anything you say. I'm sure he has feelings for you, there's no doubt about it... but it comes down to the fact that he wants to pursue you or not. The key is time right now.. and as a friend you can only stand to the side and help him through this. It's going to be a tough road for you...because you love him too. It's hard standing to the side when you know the situation and you know what you want to do to fix it, but you can't because the other person hasn't accepted themselves...

I accepted myself since I was in middle school... but even today, I block off a lot of my feelings of guys and when I fall for them. I've pushed away many guys because i wasn't okay with the way they made me feel. I've hurt a lot of them and I've hurt myself too.. No matter how much I loved them, I never accepted the those feelings because I didn't want to "out" myself to them or to anyone. I continuously got mad and lashed. I too, care a lot about what other people think of me and I'm slowly trying to change that. But it's a very difficult process. I'm not saying that your friend is like me, Or say that he won't ever accept himself.. it's just that things like this are really really difficult and it's hard to find a solution to it.

As much as I feel for you, I feel for him also.. that confusion where the mind fights with the heart is not a good thing at all... you see, because he has feelings for you it's going to be tough for you to be the one helping him.

Again, take it slowly don't over think this too much. be simple about it, don't question or push him. Just be there for how long he needs you for...you need to have patience. If you love him enough then you can pull through it. It's up to you too if you decide to stay for this. Good luck, and I hope everything turns out well.

 

Yay! Him being happy and normal is a sign that hes still trying to sort things out but hes still interested. Don't rush things for now and just go with the flow. He'll be more grateful that you did. The touching could be a sign thats hes comfortable with you and thats good too because if sometimes people who question are uncomfortable with touching from the same sex.

I'm happy it went well and you seem really happy. Cant wait for friday! Good luck!

 

blueskies,
Oh my here I am on YOUR thread now. And wow, I wish I'd found it earlier, what a story!

Two young Swedish boys trapped in their emotions by day and lost in each other's arms by night. Will they ever find their way through the maze of their conflicted emotional heartache and meet each other's true desires, thus allowing themselves to relish in the clarity of love which beats in their hearts for one another? ahhh Only time will tell.

So yeah, needless to say, I found your situation rather touching. I have a few thoughts to share on it if you don't mind.
First of all, I've read pretty much the entire thread and it seems everyone is preoccupied with discussing you/him being gay. Well in my opinion, you're not gay...and neither is he.
At least not gay per se, neither of you appear to be intrinsically gay. Gay people don't like girls most of their lives and then suddenly like one guy. Gay people usually know all their lives something isn't quite right, even those that get far enough along to marry and have children before they come out, afterwards they usually say something wasn't right and they knew it. (Now granted, you kissed each other and touched each other's penises so by strict definition, you're gay...but in this situation especially ..you need to ignore labels)

What you are experiencing is something different. Love.
If both of you were raised on a desert island, far away from the conventions of our modern day society, in a place or time where nobody labeled intrinsic male affection as gay, you both would simply be happy together and it wouldn't be anymore complicated than that.
The feelings you have would be perfectly natural and you would have no trouble freely expressing that love for each other as you've formed a bond, a connection strong enough to where it cannot be properly expressed without allowing a physical manifestation of that love to occur.

Something else I'd like to point out, often times when one is happily in a relationship, sexual desire can wain somewhat for others. I think this is the case with both of you. You're both happy where you're at now, and so its natural you're not feeling any (or lesser) attractions to females (or perhaps males). I think if either of you were faced with a situation where you simply couldn't be together anymore, like if one of you (god forbid) died or moved far away from each other. I think you might find attractions to females returning within 1-3 months. Now of course, this is just a theory of mine, and its not to say one or both of you perhaps might really be gay to some degree, but in your particular case, I really think your desire stems more from a need to further express your affections for one another. (In the end, only you know for sure if you're gay/bi or not)

So how does he feel about you?
Yes, he loves you. Its painful for him because he's having trouble reconciling being in love with a man. He's always been taught not to be that way and he honestly hasn't felt this for anyone else so strongly, probably male or female. Don't mistake how strongly he feels this for you. The evidence is in that sober kiss, the nervous pacing leading up to it and the crying afterwards. And in how angry at you he got, then suddenly so sad, wanting more from you.

AKTODD was right, by not talking about it, he was able to have sex with you and keep it separated in his mind so that he wouldn't be freaked out so much by the idea. Once you told him your feelings though, it made it very real for him and he was forced to face his own feelings.
Honestly, if things had gone perfectly, that night he kissed you sober, you'd have never let him leave that night even if you had to pin him to the ground. Which is probably what you should've done, exactly that and just held him, not saying anything but letting your actions of holding him and not letting him go speak for itself, it would've been all that was needed and would've saved him (and you) a lot of days of grief.

In my opinion, space is really the last thing you should be giving him unless he specifically asks for it, and even then if he does say that I'd tell him that you miss him so much that you hope he's not gone for long. I think space could damage your relationship, he might decide the pain of not having you around is better than feeling the pain of being gay. And as a fellow member of the human condition, I don't think it'd be completely wrong of you to be a little selfish and want your relationship with him to continue. If somehow he decides later that he's better off without you, your relationship at least deserves a chance. You need to be close to him for things to get better. You need to show some trust and open up, be emotionally vulnerable to him.
Now of course pressure .. no.
But if you love him, you need to be there for him. Which minimum right now, at least means hanging out, having some fun, and getting things "back to normal". Which from your last post look like you're well on your way to doing just that.

[

Basically all he's saying here is that he can see you being gay somewhat easily, but seeing himself gay is very confusing because he's never even considered it before or felt anything like this for another man. "He can't be Gay"
It might not be the best analogy, but okay imagine yourself being a bank robber. You might've imagined robbing a bank before, and when it came down to the nitty gritty of it, you realized you couldn't do it, its just not you. You couldn't shot someone for money if you had to, spend time in prison, break the law, etc. Now imagine tomorrow FOR REAL you walk into a bank, pull out a gun and hold up a bank...whats the first thing you'd think? "But I can't be a bank robber!"
So thats why he says He can't be gay ...its too surreal, kinda amazes and horrifies him at the same time because he's imagined being gay before and realized it just wasn't him, and now suddenly He's doing some very gay things. And likewise, its easier for him to imagine you being gay because he knows you well, but he doesn't know your thoughts, he doesn't know that it scares you as well. (very important you tell him)

So yeah, I think the next time you're having a conversation on this subject, you should be sure and tell him exactly what you put in your post here,

I think its very important for the growth of your relationship with him that the next time you are having a deep discussion with him that you say everything to him in all of those quotes and even if you said one of them before, reiterate it and combine it so you say it all at once.
He needs to know how long it took for your feelings to develop for him.
He needs to know how you felt when you first kissed him. And yes, you actually need to say, "The first time I kissed you, I knew it was right because it felt a thousand times better than it did with any girl"
He needs to know the during the past couple months your feelings have grown stronger, you need to say, "during the past couple of months, my feelings for you have gotten much stronger, I knew it was more than a crush, I began to love you (yes say love)" ..and he needs to know how before you'd always considered yourself straight and how much it scares you to be openly gay. (that last part is especially important as he can relate better to you if he knows you're feeling the same as him)
This is what I mean when I say you need to be emotionally vulnerable to him. He's been your friend for what seven years you said? So yeah, if you are feeling all of this, try not to be a chicken shit, you need to tell him, for his sake as much as yours. You can lay to rest a lot of his fears and really help him by telling him these things, especially if he can relate to what you're saying because he might be feeling much the same way.
But do tell him that you love him, and emphasize that by telling him all this that you don't expect anything in return or that you want anything he's not willing to give, that you just wanted to lay it out there and talk to him about how you felt.

(and yeah I'm not saying, do all this the next time you see him, I read in your last post you guys just did some normal fun hangout stuff, thats good, it kinda heals things up, but work it in when you guys are alone some night, having a deep, long talk)

I know thats not the easiest thing in the world. A lot easier to give that advice that to actually do it. But you started this journey with him. You started the sexual encounters. You moved forward and by expressing your feelings to him and wanting more from him you opened an emotional chasm in him. Now you need to see it through. Be there for him. He's scared and confused. Don't let him go through this alone, he needs you.

Hmmm, well I better get back over to NoClue's thread and see how he's doing. I don't wanna upstage AKTODD here, from what I've read he's done a great job of giving you advice here. Just thought I'd add my two cents. I hope things work out well for both of you.
GOOD LUCK

 

Given the way he was touching you, I think he's probably working through his feelings and experimenting (for lack of a better word) with letting himself act a bit on his feelings toward you while also being very discreet (since I suspect that the idea of being seen being affectionate with another guy (holding hands) is way beyond his comfort zone right now). He's sort of getting a sense of what a relationship would feel like with you (at least as he conceives of such a thing at this point).

Given that you've said several times that he's not usually very demonstrative, this sort of thing is probably a big deal for him and should be (gently and discreetly if in public) encouraged. You might sort of return the favor when appropriate, either as he did or when you're alone together. Touching hands, or letting your legs/knees touch (maybe with a little pressure) can mean a lot.

As to whether he likes you or not: Dude, by your own admission he repeatedly traveled an hour across town to have sex with you and sleep in your bed with you cuddled up to him. When pressed he KISSED you sober (which from what you've said is a HUGELY demonstrative act for him on general principles, let alone with a guy) when a hug probably would have been taken just as well by you. I don't think he did all that because you make such a great cup of morning coffee

Yes, he's also dealing with the whole 'But I can't be gay!' thing and that's going to take some time. But his recent actions say to me that he's at least partly easing into the idea of letting himself act on his feelings toward you, regardless of whether or not he's resolved the 'am I or aren't I' thing in his head.

As far as telling him how you feel - you need to use your own best judgement on that. I think you can eventually, but the moment should feel right, not something you must do. You might spend some time being gently demonstrative with him and work up to it and/or tell him how you feel more gently at first and then work up to it. Maybe gauge his feelings as well in that moment and move forward if it feels like the right time. As you say, be a friend but if things start easing toward being more intimate than that's OK to.

Hope this helps,

Todd

 

Hey, I hope things worked out well. I guess it's been a few days, so it's more or less a waiting game to see what he says...

A few things: While you're "confused", adopting the philosophy of "I will fall in love with whoever I fall in love with" might make things less confusing for you.

In addition, confronting this guy was the best thing you could have done --- there's been awkward tension between both of you, and his brought the power to define the relationship to the surface. This prevents you from being used (and please don't accept being FWB), and you get to decide what happens now.

Good luck.

 

Oh wow, I'm such a noob, I didn't click the next page button before writing my post and wrote a basically useless response, sorry >_<

 

Hey
Just reading over what's been happening
I don't think it was his fault, and if he pushed away immediately when she kissed him it means he was definitely being loyal to you (this is yet another sign that he really cares about you). I wouldn't be too worried about your friend knowing. Just tell her it's nothing until you're ready to tell people.

Be nice to him when you see him tonight Remember that he's still confused
Keep us posted (this is so cute )

 

Actually, I was mainly thinking of the bit where he touched your hand under the table, but the subway part is nice too. He didn't have to do either of those things, but chose to nevertheless. And you mentioned that he kept touching you when you were walking even though he didn't have to. Given that he's apparently not a touchy person, and that he's still working through his feelings for you, this sort of thing gets extra weight in my book. He could as readily gone the other direction and kept your entire interaction strictly platonic. He chose not to

If he didn't like you back he wouldn't be behaving as he is. The trick is to get him (and you to a lesser degree) to understand that it's OK for you to like it each and that there's nothing wrong with it or with other people knowing about it.

As far as letting him know how you feel, reading your earlier post, I think he's got some idea of that. More on that in a separate post.

Todd

 

Hmm. Ok, various thoughts here:

First, welcome to this feeling called jealousy. It really is a monster. Rather more seriously, you need to cut him a lot of slack here. While I totally understand you being jealous, I would point out that neither of you seems to have a good idea yet of just how to manage your relationship (or even if you have a relationship yet). If you didn't have this thing going on between you he might have been thrilled that this woman was dancing with him and coming on to him. He's been dating women up until you after all and old habits die hard. Also, unless Sweden is rather a lot different from the US, a guy's first reaction to a woman kissing him is probably not to punch her. So what should he have done? More importantly how was he supposed to know what he 'should have done'? You're both kind of confused and up in the air right now and a certain amount of understanding and working through things is going to be needed on both sides. For proof of this I would refer you back to your own interactions with your female friend. Not exactly the most smooth and cool bit of acting you've ever pulled of, was it?

He obviously felt bad about it afterward and isn't happy that he hurt you. Give him full credit for that and understand he didn't mean to hurt you.

Second, you need to use this as a starting point for conversation, not only about how you both feel, but also about how to move forward. Whether that means that you both figure out some workable responses to these sorts of situations while keeping your relationship a secret from all your friends or coming out as a couple (of whatever orientation or no orientation) or something in between. Basically, you need to communicate and you need to work things out and you most especially need to treat this as something you are in together and need to support each other through as you work through it.

In this particular case, it seems that a topic of discussion needs to be how you both deal with parties and other mutual and major social events around people who don't know you are together (if/when you both reach the point where you are comfortable being openly together, much of this issue goes away - even more as you become comfortable with each other and build mutual trust).

Third, there is the issue of your friend Maria - it sounds like she suspects you are more than friends. Whether that is just a spur of the moment judgement on her part or you have simply been much more obvious about your feelings toward him than you think, or even if she's suspected you might be into guys far longer than you have really isn't known as this point. But you need to calm down and figure out how to address this. Whether that means you and your guy getting better at acting 'normal' around her and your circle of friends (at least for now) or letting her into your confidence (which he needs to agree to as well, I think - he's part of this as well) if you feel you safely can is going to be something you need to work out.

Fourth, I've been thinking about sharing these links with you for a few days now. This seems as good a time as any:

a) These two threads:

http://emptyclosets.com/forum/famil...84180-please-help-me-i-dont-know-what-do.html

http://emptyclosets.com/forum/coming-out-stories/86779-came-out-my-brother-first-person-ever.html

Are both by the same guy - the second kind of slots in near the end of the first. They touch on issues of jealousy a bit, and being closeted, and some downsides of that (but it is heading in a good direction by the end). Also on guys who don't fit the stereotype and only have feelings for each other, not guys in general.

b) This thread:

http://emptyclosets.com/forum/family-friends-relationships/92302-what.html

touches a bit on a guy who's pretty accepting of being bi but ends up developing feelings for another when that was really not what he expected in life. Also some concerns around coming out to friends. Again, has a nice ending.

c) These threads

http://emptyclosets.com/forum/coming-out-advice/96608-i-asked-my-roommate-if-hes-gay.html

http://emptyclosets.com/forum/family-friends-relationships/54964-my-story.html

are still ongoing (but much slower these days) and touch on lots of issues, particularly only having feelings for a particular guy, coming to terms with that, and working together to build a relationship while feeling your way in this very new territory.

Both are rather long (I doubt you can read all these threads before tonight, but try to find time in the near future), but also good reads and seem to help a lot of people.

While none of these perfectly match your situation, I'm hoping you'll find bits that you can relate to or find helpful, if for no other reason than to see that you're not the only one to ever go through something like this.

Finally, (and most importantly) when you see him tonight give him a big hug and apologize to him (I'm guessing/hoping he'll hug back and apologize again). Use this event as an opportunity to discuss your situation and feelings for each other and to figure out how to move forward. He's probably still working through stuff (so are you even if you started sooner than he did) and you need to support each other in this.

Be honest with him about how you feel (which I think you were planning anyway) and try to take the approach of 'how do we make this work for both of us?' rather than 'Oh God, what do we do, why did this have to happen?'.

Hopefully, this will be something you both can laugh over together 20yrs from now. Perhaps keep that goal in mind.

Hope this helps,

Todd

 

Bah!
Its 8:30pm saturday night for me, so your Saturday night is already half over.
Theres a lot I would've like to have said to you before tonight happened.
Hopefully things have gone well for you.

I wouldn't sweat the situation with him and the girl dancing. Nobody else knows and so everyone else is going to proceed with the information they have. If he WOULDN'T have danced with her, it would have seemed strange.

The fact that he was this emotional about it tells me how much he cares for you and how bad he truly felt. You have nothing to worry about, he really does like you that much.

And yes, Maria, knows everything you do...or strongly suspects.

This tells me that she was watching you watch them dance together, she was reading your reaction. She saw there you were upset by them dancing. She asked the first, then second most obvious questions. Were you upset because you liked girl he was dancing with? NO deductive reasoning leads to the next question.. Were you upset because the girl was dancing with him?
Basically, Maria is very good at reading people, you either need to steer far away from her for a while or decide if you can trust her and let her in a bit.

And for the stuff I wish I'd have gotten a chance to say before tonight, I hope everything has worked itself out well. Its hard to say if everything can work itself out in just one talk. Theres still a lot of feelings and issues to work through for both of you. Honestly though, I think this jealousy issue is actually good timing if you look at it from a clinical/unemotional perspective. Good timing, if you planning on having another serious talk with him because that incident will probably help put your feelings into perspective for both of you.
You now know at this point, what it feels like to see him with anyone else, thus realizing just how deep your feelings go for him. And you know, from his reaction, he feels the same way about you. He didn't want to make you angry, he didn't want to hurt you like that and even though he couldn't help it, he doesn't want to betray the love he feels for you. I think that says A LOT!
The thing you need to be prepared for is that could open up an even larger emotional chasm in him if he's scared about his feelings for a male. Its seems most of his troubles lately is wrestling with the "He can't be gay" and trying to reconcile that with the strength of his love for you. So the jealousy issue probably magnified that.
You definitely want to be there for him, but be ready for a range of emotions, good and bad. Its still going to take him some time to work things out and its going to take even longer for both of you to be open about it once you're okay together.
Looking forward to seeing how tonight went.
GOOD LUCK!

 

dude... this is progressing so well. i'm so happy for you and the way you handled things! good job my friend! I'm REALLY REALLY happy to hear this!

 

Oh well hell yeah!!!
Omg I'm grinning ear to ear as I re-read your post blueskies.
thats awesome....pure awesome

yeah don't let society dictate to you how its going to be, when you're in your home, alone together, fuck the world, leave the rest of the world outside, that time is just for the two of you.
And you were right, as long as you have each other, you can get through what anyone else thinks of you. Way to live up to your own expectations and not try to be what someone else thinks you should be.

AWESOME!

oh and p.s. ...he wasn't crying because he was sad ;D