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How to pass as a guy without testosterone?

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by WhiteRaven, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. WhiteRaven

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    All right, so... I think I would really like it to pass as a guy now and then, but the idea of taking T so quick kinda scares me. Messing with your hormones is not something to be taken lightly, and I want to be a 120% sure before I would ever go ahead with it. And also be out of the closet (obviously) and be aware of possible side effects (I heard one of them is acne, which isn't really great, because I have acne already (and HATE it!) and don't want it to get even worse). I also think that being able to pass as a man would help me feel more secure and certain about this being the 'right' thing. My head is still in denial, but my heart already knows... I'm (more or less) out to myself, but cannot yet even THINK of telling my friends and relatives. I prolly will with some time.
    Lately I've deliberately begun wearing more boyish clothes again (I already didn't wear girly clothes, I have to say) and it feels great and comfortable. If I don't look in the mirror I almost believe I AM a guy, lol! So I'd like to push that a little bit further...

    I already have a pretty non-feminine body though, so I wonder; what can I change? I have NO idea what the breaking point is for people to identify me as a female. Is it my voice? My face? My speech patterns and word use? And how can I change those things? I have no visible breasts if I wear baggy clothing (which is always) and hardy any feminine curves. My voice isn't pipsqueek high either, more on the alto tone (for ME it sounds like a fine guys voice, when I hear it back on record it doesn't though. I remember the first time I heard my voice from record and shouting out "I sound like a GIRL!" "You ARE a girl." "Oh... yes... right...*silence* ehm, good point."
    My hair MIGHT be a problem, as I have (shoulderlength) dreads, and I'm NOT going to cut them short. They have way too much emotional value for me. (though short hair is next on the list) But on the other hand, statistically there are more guys than women with dreads...

    Anyway, is there anyone who could give me advice and help me out on this one :slight_smile:

    Thanks! (and I'll try not to ramble too much in the future, lol)
    White Raven
     
  2. Yamato

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    Are the clothes you wear actually guys clothes or girls clothes that just look boyish? I would suggest just wearing guys clothes as girls clothes are cut to emphasize curves and make you look more feminine.
    Your voice might be the problem but there isn't really much you can do about it, there are ways to temporarily deepen it but it can damage you voice box so I wouldn't suggest that. If you try talking from your chest it may sound a bit lower. I generally just avoid talking.
    I don't know if dreads will help or hinder you passing. I suggest you do what you want with your hair. Dreads aren't seen as a girly hair cut so its probably fine.

    Hope that helps, I can't think of anything else that might be useful to you at the moment
     
  3. WhiteRaven

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    Well, I obviously don't have a wardrobe full of guys clothes... but I have a few unisex t-shirts that have no 'female shape' to them in any way (like those better as well, they fit more 'relaxed', and have pretty cool designs. I got a few with rockband logo's or fantasy creatures/dragons) I also got a green plaid shirt, I never wear it closed (I don't wear sweaters closed either. I don't like that), but I've recently discovered that plaid seems to be 'a lesbian thing', and I don't want to be seen as a butch lesbian, actually... (which is a bit of a pitfall for many FtM's before T I suppose...)
    I also suppose that I could maybe pass for a 14 year old boy, but damn, I'm 18! ):
     
  4. aneurysm

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    Instead of full stops, you should use the word bro. :thumbsup:

    You wouldn't be able to get on T in most cases without "living in the role" for a year anyway. It is good that you are thinking carefully about hormones. In my opinion, unless you desperately need to go on T, don't, cause it will reduce your life-span by around five years, as it does for cis guys.

    Dreads might work for you depending on your face shape, but if you decide to cut it, look at other guys in your area and age group; get a haircut like them.
    Same goes for clothes.

    I'm not sure if you are familiar with binders? You can look into buying one, or make your own out of a sports bra
     
  5. Yamato

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    Most preT FtMs appear younger than they actually are.
    I still have alot of girls clothes cos my mum likes them but I never wear them. I suggest just buying a new item of clothing every now and then till it is mostly guys stuff rather than just buying a load of new clothes at once. If you haven't spoken to your parents buying clothes gradually can be useful as they are much less likely to notice.
    You are lucky you don't have noticeable breasts. They are the main thing stopping me passing as I can't get a binder till I come out to my friends.
     
  6. WhiteRaven

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    Haha, then I'll be bro'ing a lot for sure. I have to cut using the full stops, it looks so insecure, but I can't help it.

    5 years less!? Holy shit! That is definitely something to consider very, very well then. I suppose I'll settle at a no then, because I am leaning towards having a masculine body already (no muscles, arm/chest/leg/facial hair or low man voice tho'. Though my voice is lower than the average female, it still sounds too high to be male) If I could pass as a male most of the time, I'm happy for the time being.

    Cutting my dreads would be a last resort, really. I would like to change my hairstyle now and then, but it just doesn't live up to the time which it takes to get proper dreads. And I've actually seen more guys with them than girls, so I guess I should be OK.

    Y'know what I would want... a goatee! (or just a male body, now we're busy granting wishes XD can I order the one with brown hair? Yes? How much? Okay, so it will be delivered on Friday? Yes? Ah great!)

    I don't think I would need a binder, with clothes on my breasts are about as big as most transguys' WITH a binder (yes, I'm lucky, I know. Don't shoot me. *ack!*). The only thing they are still too 'big' for is walking around topless in summer (and saying "Hey, but I'm a guy" when someone stops you XD no way I'm going to get away with that!)

    My parents don't give a fuck what I wear. Even IF I would wear downright guys clothes, they're OK with it as long as I feel comfortable. (and I suppose women get away with male clothes better than the other way around. We lucky FtM's! :slight_smile:) I don't know how I would feel about roaming in the male clothes section. I'm too afraid someone will look at me and think "Dafuq!?" (but I'm making it bigger than it is, probably. And even then I could say I'm buying a gift for my boyfriend (WHAT boyfriend? XD) or something)
    When I would buy a suit for or graduation ceremony instead a dress they would be spooked tho'. Even though I HATE dresses and am dreading that day, I don't think I got the guts to sport a suit. All my classmates know I'm a girl after all :frowning2:

    Anyway, thanks lots for the tips :wink: and sorry for the long ramble. Y'know, I'm now discovering what a tricky, fine, fuzzy line the difference between male and female actually is. How the fuck can our brains even know the difference, lol! But... magically they do!
     
  7. Exoskeleton

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    Oh, I'm going to shoot you. Shoot you dead!

    I'm super jealous of you, though. I've been cursed with curves in all the wrong places. Concealing them is going to be hard.

    Anyway, I don't think that you'll get weird stares for perusing the men's section, at least not in fairly large stores. I shop out of the men's section all the time and never get a word or glance edgewise. Likewise, your dreads are fine. I have them too, and find myself in a minority among women. Dreads are really seen as more of a male style, for whatever reason.

    I've always sort of wanted a nice short beard. Wouldn't that be nice?

    But as an extra question to the great base of knowledge that is EC, how important is packing to passing for male? Is it even something that other people will notice?
     
  8. Ronin

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    Yeah as far as roaming the men's section. I did that the first time the other day and was feeling a bit nervous but really, no one cared. No one cares. You could just as easily be looking for clothes for your younger brother or bf for all anyone knows if that helps.

    And dreads are great for either men or women, it's just one of those things. I always found that women with dreads tend to look more masculine, but maybe it's just me.
    I'm kinda in the same position you are. What can I do to pass better pre-T? I've gone through quite a few websites, but here's some of the things that made most sense to me.

    • Shave your peach fuzz where a beard would be.
    • Bind if you want to, though it sounds like you're lucky.
    • There's this one website that talks about how to give yourself a more masculine shape. A lot of the things he talks about in fashion are extremely helpful. Like you, my body shape isn't too bad to work with but it's still very helpful. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post links of other sites though...?
    • Now, I have no idea how you talk besides you said you have a more alto voice. One thing is if you talk fast - slow down. Not many guys talk as fast as some girls can. Use less expressive intonation in your voice and try ending more sentences on a lower note. Speak from your chest voice. If you're alto you might do this to a degree already. When you do this, it sounds like your voice resonates in your chest and is heavier vs your head voice which most women speak in which feels lighter and more in the head or the front of one's face. I also don't recommend pushing your voice too low without the help of a vocal coach.
    • Work out! You'll feel better overall, be healthier... Even the scrawny guys have muscle.
    • You may also decide to try packing - some FTMs do, some don't.
    • Walking. Women and men walk differently. Also how you sit. Crossing your legs with your hands delicately folded on your lap doesn't help. Typically, women take up as little space as possible, men make themselves more comfortable and take up more space. If you cross your legs, do it with an ankle over your knee. I know some men cross their legs normally, but it just won't help us. Leaning your weight to one leg when your standing which emphasize your hips also doesn't help. Sitting with your knees apart instead of together. I think you get the idea.
    • Lastly be confident in yourself! I don't mean fake it, (unless you really have to) but have real confidence. One of the things that has made me annoyed in the past about all the blogs out there with tips on passing is that it almost feels like they've missed the point of it all. Why on earth would someone want to change gender or sex? Because they want to be who they truly are. Sound cliche? But it's true. All the things you do to pass can make one feel more comfortable, but don't sweat it, take it easy and start doing things to make you feel better about yourself, not more anxious. We've lived our entire lives trying to fit society's standards for us and were miserable because of it. Let's not do it again.
    Hope something here has helped!
     
  9. WhiteRaven

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    Thanks so much for the great tips :slight_smile:
    (and awesome you have dreads too, Exoskeleton! :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes: And yeah, I think you're right, it might even prove to be an advantage when it comes to passing, as it's more associated with males than females)

    And thanks for giving me a bit more confidence on roaming the men's section. I shouldn't make it a bigger 'issue' than it is :slight_smile:
    And yeah, I would love a short beard. It's one of the many things I've always envied men for. Just as that they are allowed to be 'hairy'. I love my hair, I hate shaving... but yet it's the expected thing to do. (I don't do it though) Personally I would love a bit MORE hair...)

    I think that packing (mostly) isn't really a necessary thing to do (just face it; how many girls constantly stare at a guys crotch?) In some places it might help though, and when it makes you feel more confident and 'manly'; DO IT!

    Peach fuzz! Oh yes, that's a good one, I actually didn't even think about that, really!
    And I think other sites are okay, as long as they don't link to you. But if you want to be sure; ask a mod.
    And I talk rather quickly, so that's a really good tip! If I deliberately speak low it'll sound fake and be bad for my vocal chords, but I think I can leave out the high pitchers that slip through now and then.

    And HOW do they walk differently? Women give more swing to their hips or something?
    When I comes to sitting, I think that I already sit quite 'manly' (wide, slouching a little (I know, it's bad for my back. But I can't help it), relaxed, taking up half of the sofa, and actually I never cross my legs. Makes me feel 'crunched up' or something)

    *hug* thanks so much for the great advice, bro! I really have to gain some confidence, but I already feel a bit better each day! ^^
     
  10. Ronin

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    Glad I was able to help out a bit!! I have to say, I would also love a short beard. Maybe a thin chin strap with a goatee...
    Anyways. Hmm let's see. I've heard people say that guys "walk with their crotch" which I don't find terribly helpful personally. It also sounds a bit derogatory imo lol. I don't really know how to word it exactly, it's something you may have to experiment with in a mirror. They have a wider stance and a wider walk also. And long strides.
     
  11. Just Jess

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    Just as someone who was socialized male, men kind of avoid the area when they look at people they read as men. I suppose there are those that are looking for that sort of thing and would take a gander. But guys that would be looking are probably not the kind that are going to give you crap.

    Now when it's you being read as a woman, and it's a straight guy, I'm a little disgusted with my old self to say it but all bets really are off. I find myself avoiding doing this a little more now just because in the back of my mind it's like "oh wow I don't want people really all over me like this with their eyes". But it's there, and really guys can't help it. It's something they just do without thinking really. Your butt and chest are going to get a once over. Fortunately your crotch is less likely to get inspected, but it will happen if you are sitting down or walking toward someone.

    But even then I don't think packing is going to be too much of an issue. The reason I say that is because if you are wearing men's pants, they are going to be cut in a way that flatters a guy anyway. The truth is what a heterosexual woman sees is not what she is going to get. Men want to look large and in charge all the time, even when they aren't, you know, aroused, and people who make pants know that. Every guy is self conscious of their size, and will go out of their way to avoid making other guys feel self conscious. It's one of those unspoken rules.

    So I think a pair of kakhi pants and learning how to walk in more of a box would go a lot further than packing. Those pants will cause a natural bulge that's bigger than what's under it on a cis guy, and men will know not to stare too much. And if they are staring you're probably being read as a guy :slight_smile:

    Just from spending a little more time tucked though I think packing would probably help your confidence a little. I mean when I sag my pants in boy mode, but stuff's still out of the way, my thighs do rub together every now and then, and weird as it sounds it does mess with my mental ability to pass as a guy. I've actually considered packing myself in situations like that. I'd still take care of my dysphoria while avoiding stares or being in-between. It made sense to me anyway. But I can say from experience that I've walked around in panties just fine without problems being read as a guy. Just in your head it's a different story.
     
  12. Exoskeleton

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    I think guys walk with more of a wide stance. Less hip and more leg. It's hard to describe. I only say this because I've been told that I walk like a guy (I even get occasionally read as a guy from behind or at night), and I take it that this spawns from a staunch refusal to sway my hips, walking with my legs fairly far apart, and a heavier, more "self assured" walk. Not stomping, but coming down heavy.

    And thanks, Cassie. I want to pack just for my personal feelings of manhood, but I wouldn't want my entire presentation to fall apart if I didn't one day.
     
  13. Hexagon

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    I actually got T within a few months of going full-time. And the consultant who prescribed them for me is willing to prescribe hormones for people who haven't gone full time yet. Also, I'm not sure if the thing about reducing life-span is correct. As I understand it, the reduced life-span thing is partially related to the Y chromosome, and partially related to increased risk of cardio-vascular disease (which T does increase). There are many things that can help with this, for instance, not eating saturated fat. My consultant basically told me there was no clear evidence either way.

    Obviously, its your choice whether or not to go on T, and you should make that choice when completely informed of all the available facts, but it might be prudent to consider the quality of life you'll have on or off T.

    These are the relevant positive affect of T that I've encountered personally:
    -voice dropping, making passing more comfortable
    -facial hair, making not looking 14 easier. A year ago, I looked 14, when I was 17. I can now easily pass for 18, and often 20.
    -slight changes in the layout of your face, to more male contours
    -slight decrease in breast size
    -easier to build muscle, to aid in passing
    -sweat smells 'male' (yes, I really have noticed this, both in me and other guys)
    -clitoral growth, making one of the two types of GRS possible.

    Basically, life gets a hell of a lot better on T.

    negative affects:
    -acne, but that is supposed to pass as it does in cis-people.
    -laziness, but maybe thats just me lol

    I agree that packing is largely unnecessary. Most of the clothes guys wear are too loose to notice anything anyway.

    Learning to walk like a guy is important. I'm not entirely sure how to word this next bit, but I've noticed that guys seem a little less involved in causal conversations that girls, they gesture less etc.

    More importantly that lowering your voice, is to watch how much the pitch varies. A bit of variation in the pitch is fine, and natural, but be aware that girls typically speak with much more variation in pitch, and the variation increases when they are emotional.

    If you are planning on using a bathroom, do not look at anyone, and they won't look at you. There is some kind of social phobia of looking at guys in guys bathrooms.
     
  14. WhiteRaven

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    Walk with their crotch? That doesn't really help, no... I'm trying out some various walks, I suppose it would be something confident, large strides, etc. but not swaying the hips (not that I did that anyway. Not much to sway down there. If I walk femininely I look like a retard, lol!)

    Wait a sec... but... your profile says MtF, so are you a MtF trans or a FtM? (and if the first, WHY the heck would you want to pass as a guy anyway??) Am I missing something here... *puzzled*

    And can you clarify 'walk in more of a box'? I don't really get that one.

    For the rest, great advice, and I agree. I think that packing is mainly for one's personal confidence, and if it makes you FEEL good and more likely to pass, then do it. Chances are that you WILL pass better. I'm not sure if I will do it myself, I'll experiment a little and see if it makes me feel more confident.

    From what I see, the main thing which I really miss is confidence and the belief that I WILL pass. I've seen guys that were girlier than I, though no-one doubted their man-ness, while no-one doubts my girl-ness. (of course a low voice and facial hair will help, but there is no way I can magically obtain those things right now)

    EDIT: Note to self; always finish message before doing anything else. I haven't yet seen those two new replies. *starts reading*
    EDIT 2: All right, I'll just thoroughly research the use of T (and possible side-effects) once I'm out for my family and all. But like I said, even though a low voice, facial hair, a more masculine appearance, all seem tempting, I'm not going to rush it. Especially because with some luck and effort I might be able to pass as a guy anyway. (I'll just have to try it, and see what happens)

    laziness isn't really a problem for me, lol, at least not if it doesn't get WORSE. I'm pretty lazy already (say 'guy-lazy'. I'm also kind of performing under my skills because of it, but I don't really mind as long as I won't fail my exams) And yeah, acne SHOULD go away, I still have it at 18 though ): I wish it would just vanish!

    When I get excited I start shouting so loudly, lol. Then my girly side takes over XD
     
    #14 WhiteRaven, Mar 24, 2013
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  15. Exoskeleton

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    Oh, and I also walk with one hand hovering near my crotch or resting on my thigh (near the inside, so still in crotch region). I think that helps, but is more of an element of my own personal walk than it is a universally masculine thing. When I switch my weight from foot to foot, it's accomplished through swaying my shoulder to one side, and not my hip. It's a "rocking" thing, with a distinctive back and forth motion, opposed to the more fluid motion of a girl's sway.

    That's all I can think of for now (I got up and started walking around my house to try to analyze how I walk :lol: ). I hope it helped, if even a little.

    I'm going to try these voice tips out, and see how they work.
     
    #15 Exoskeleton, Mar 24, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  16. Hexagon

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    Yeah, I managed to pass quite successfully without T. The difference is that on T, I feel way happier. I quite literally feel more male. IMO, its not all about passing, but how comfortable that experience is.
     
  17. Oddish

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    All really good advice, exactly what I would recommend.

    I'm going to put my own advice and tips into here..

    * When it comes to 'peach fuzz', and having a Pre-T mustache, I'm set. I'm mostly composed of Mediterranean genes, and I'm very much Italian, so I already have a lot of hair. Everywhere. I even have a pretty visible happy trail (and I'm definitely appreciating my dark hair a whole lot more). But what I have seen some FtMs with lighter facial hair/peach fuzz do, is take mascara and smear it or lightly brush it against their hair to make it appear darker, and therefore, more noticeable. And it does look good! I've seen some pictures, and I wouldn't have guessed they enhanced their facial hair with any sort of makeup.

    * When it comes to my voice, I already have a higher thyroid level than what's considered normal for teenage girls, so of course my voice is deeper. But there are a few videos out there that can help you train your voice to have it sound more masculine. I think there's a specific one on youtube you can search for.

    * And with clothing... the baggier, the better, if you have a curvy frame (unfortunately, I'm a curvy Mediterranean, so I have an hourglass shape and it's hard to work with :frowning2:). I'm jealous of your boyish physique. If you can fit into mens jeans, do so. I personally can't because of my hips, and if I buy a size that fits, the legs are extremely baggy and I just end up looking like a douchey gangster. Maybe look into skinny jeans? I see a lot of lads wearing them. And nobody gives a flying fuck who's shopping in the mens section. I've bought boxers multiple times with cis-males standing right next to me. If it makes you feel better, you can try shopping later on a weekend where it generally isn't as busy. Or crossdress, so you'll feel comfortable.

    * With binding, it sounds like you don't have much in the chest region (which I'm envious.. I'm a DD here :icon_sad:slight_smile:, so I wouldn't worry. You could get away with a sports bra, and wearing a singlet (tanktop) under a shirt and look flat.

    * Walking like a guy.. I still don't even know what this means. I think I walk pretty guyish, with my hands always in my pockets and kinda slouched over. But I don't look unconfident. Just more relaxed, and I do keep my hands near my crotch, maybe it creates some sort of elusion that I have a penis. I don't pack either. I don't see packing as an important part, I doubt many people are focusing on my genitals but rather my clothing and my face.

    * Hair.. with hair, I'll be honest. Mine's all the way down to my midback, and I'm too attached to it, to even cut it. If I could pass as a handsome man with long hair, I would keep it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I'm going to have to bite the bullet soon and cut it off. I personally wear a lot of hats, and I tuck my hair up into them, or I'll wear a jacket and keep my hair into a ponytail and hide it underneath my hood. I think you could get away with dreads. Just look at Ryan Cassata. He's a gorgeous FtM with dreads.

    ..I can't really think of much else to offer, but I would recommend toning up and working out as well. All of the posters here have covered up an abundance of information. I also appreciate Hexagon's insight on T and how it's worked. (I'm curious because I'm only on hormone blockers and will have to wait quite a while to start Testosterone.)
     
  18. Hexagon

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    The effects I mentioned are only what I've personally noticed, and the ones that were relevant to the passing context. In addition to the ones I posted earlier:

    -Higher sex drive
    -If you haven't stopped growing, you will get taller than a biological female (this is rare, but it happens sometimes. It happened to me because I'm IS)
    -the smell of your urine may change
    -nail shape (I've never seen this described by doctors, but a lot of transpeople I've talked to have said they've noticed the shape of their cuticles has changed a little (I think thats the right word)
    -periods stop, and eventually that will be irreversible
    -clitoral sensation increases (I think, anyway. it did for me. this is the equivalent of the penis, so its most affected by T)
    -you may have sleep cycle changes, normal teenager stuff.

    thats all i can think of right now

    if anyone wants, I'll post about different types of T and stuff.
     
  19. Just Jess

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    Denver
    :lol: Sorry I figured that would be confusing. I am MtF, but I am not full time yet. I'm looking for jobs right now, and that means I can only dress as a woman at home and in some social situations. I'm getting more bold, but in a bad economy there are some things I have just made up my mind to wait on, and to use my male body for. My plan is to get a job somewhere that has a good HR department and get a good reputation. Even if I lose it transitioning I have a sought after degree. My GPA isn't competitive so I really need to impress some people with my work at my first job. Everything gets harder once you start transition.

    I do something called tucking which enables me to wear panties and look and feel female from the waist down (except for my sasquatch feet). I've been doing it for a very long time, and it comes naturally for me. I can use the bathroom en femme, and when I "wipe" I can tuck everything away one handed so that I can just stand up and pull up my panties without looking weird. Not that anyone would be watching me pee anyway :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    I know it was confusing as hell. Basically since I am not full time and have to interact with the world as a male for the time being (even though I really do not want to), but like keeping a little part of myself so I don't get dysphoric feelings, I've considered keeping my "real" thing tucked away, and wearing a fake thing or even just some socks outside so I don't get read as "weird" or worry that I'm walking funny.

    Sorry I said it probably wouldn't make sense.
     
    #19 Just Jess, Mar 24, 2013
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2013
  20. Oddish

    Oddish Guest

    I've read a few of these, specifically focusing on how genitals change specifically. I'm assuming the clitoris grows and takes more of a penis shape.
    Uh, I have a question regarding sex drive... so, since I consider myself asexual/grey-a right now, once I start T, will I actually lose the asexuality and become a typical, horny teenage boy?

    And if you'd care to elaborate on different types of T, I'd like to read about them.