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Gender issues affecting experience of attraction?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by anatta, Dec 11, 2011.

  1. anatta

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    I've been thinking a lot since I've been here. It's occurred to me before but I dismissed it, that I might feel more comfortable being physically intimate with others if it weren't for my gender atypicality, i.e. if I were not trying to relate to people as 'the girl' in relationships, they wouldn't have felt so uncomfortable to me. Here's a quick breakdown:

    • I have never really felt a sense of being male or female, although I tend to relate more easily to and see things from the perspective of male characters in fiction. Not the most masculine ones, more the soft, gentle or intellectual or dorky ones. Groups of men arguing about sports or competing with each other, in loud, boistrous ways seem like a different species to me, but so do most groups of women.
    • When very young I used to play with trucks and train sets and wasn't interested in dolls or dressing up, but after about the age of five I used to mainly make up adventures and conversations between my stuffed and miniature toys rather than do anything particularly gender-slanted
    • I have no interest in make-up or fashion for myself (can enjoy looking at really nice feminine clothes on others though) but I usually don't feel upset about dressing in feminine clothes as expected, partly because I give so little thought to what I'm wearing at all, it's just a chore, and partly because I'm used to it and never considered any other option. When I first tried imagining looking more like a boy it made me anxious, but the more I think about it the more I get used to the idea and I think I could possibly prefer it. The few items of clothing that I own that I really get pleasure from wearing at are ones that would not be unusual to see on a boy, just tailored for the female body shape
    • In my dreams, I'm usually just myself but when I'm someone else, I'm a man
    • I sometimes feel self-conscious about the fact that I'm not very girly and wonder whether I'm doing it right, especially around other young women who are both girly and lacking obvious eccentricities of their own. This also happens when I've made an extra effort to look girly or stylish. It's like, once I've committed to looking more like a typical girl, I feel I've brought greater expectations on myself to live up to the initial image. In my brief attempts at having romantic relationships, I now wonder to what extent this self-consciousness and role playing interferes with my ability to relate to the other person as a romantic partner or sexual being.
    • As a child, before I knew that relationships between people of the same sex occurred as they do between people of the opposite sex, I used to make my male toys and imaginary characters have extremely close bonds with each other, kiss and serenade each other and act like what I now realise were romantic couples. Only on a few occasions were the couples anything other than two males, and when they were they were two females. Again, they were neither particularly masculine nor feminine, somewhere in the middle, but probably closer to masculine. Fictional opposite sex couples never interested me, although more recently "Walle" did perhaps because the two characters were more closely matched gender-wise (neither Walle nor Eve are entirely gender typical so they kind of meet in the middle)

    • As you might be able to tell, one of my current obsessions is the mistreatment of feminine males in society. Although I have some Aspie traits and obsessiveness over topics that others find obscure is normal for me, I do wonder if this particular issue strikes such a powerful chord with me because on some level, my internal representation of myself is male and due to my relatively middle ground gender I would be perceived as a 'sissy' male if I were one (to what extent this is true I would really like to test out by asking others though, as it's very hard to know how masculine or feminine your body language and speech actually come across to others, I might be over-estimating how feminine I seem due to growing up and being socialised as female)
    • I occasionally watch porn because of the vicarious pleasure i.e. "that would feel good" rather than imagining any particular person doing something to me, so it's not actual sexual attraction. If it's well made I can imagine the people involved having a close bond and doing it as a nice gesture for the other person, which is also nice
    • For some reason, I much prefer male-male porn over male-female or female-female. I've always found the female body slightly weirder than the male body, although not to the extent that my own causes me distress unless I deliberately sit and look and think about it. I wonder if, if I wasn't aware of being seen as 'the girl' in the relationship and of trying somewhat to play the role of 'the girl' in the relationship, I would actually be capable of a romantic relationship with a man (have only ever tried with men) without freaking out over how awkward it feels. Maybe even a sexual relationship, with sexual attraction and everything

    I really don't know what I want people to say to this, just, any thoughts or knowledge would be appreciated. I don't know very much about the various ways gender issues can influence sexuality. All I know is after transitioning some transsexuals change from androsexual to gynesexual or vice versa, and others are turned off by sex until transitioning. I'm quite sure I don't want sex reassignment though. But somehow it's easier for me to imagine being with a man if I don't look like or interact/get treated like a typical girl, at least with clothes on.
     
    #1 anatta, Dec 11, 2011
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2011
  2. Zontar

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    I've thought something similar myself. It's an easy formula for being male and getting laid with girls: bulk up. But I like my thin, feminine frame! And I wouldn't feel attractive at all despite being attractive.
     
  3. dreamcatcher

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    Hmm, this is a tricky dilemma and honestly only you can figure out what your gender or sexuality truly is. However, this is what I have to say on the issue.

    From what I’ve gathered, you seem extremely uncomfortable with the female’s role in society. However, you never mentioned how you feel about physically being a female. Does being biologically female bother you at all or is it just the expectations and roles of females? While you may not necessarily care for clothing, you do seem to be partial towards male clothing. I’m thinking maybe you should dress in a way that seems more comfortable to you, aka male. It might give you some perspective on how you feel representing yourself as a male. This might sound strange but try testing out being a guy and see how you feel. Like go online and pretend to be a guy and see if it works for you. I know it’s a strange suggestion but it just seems like you’re caught up in the gender roles and as a result, don’t feel comfortable being true to yourself.

    Also, perhaps finding people who are also gender atypical might be beneficial since you said you tend to feel self-conscious around other women who are “gender typical”. Perhaps by surrounding yourself with these new people, you might learn more about yourself and feel more comfortable with your own self. Who knows you might even find someone you like as relationship material since they won’t be so gender typical. I think that comfort level is key for developing any intimacy with someone so it’s definitely important to figure out what it is that you want or like before being able to get into a relationship.

    You also mention that you worry about having the female “role” in relationships. But what does this role pertain? Do you feel that you have to be submissive or that the man has to pay things for you? More and more heterosexual relationships are not subscribing to these definitive roles anymore. Men are becoming stay at home dads and are helping with the kitchen. Some women make more money than their husbands and are helping out with the “technical” things in the house. So this brings me to my question: If you were to take on the male role but dress physically female, would you feel comfortable with yourself? Or do you think you need to act as well as dress the part in order to feel more at ease with yourself? Because you can be a female tomboy, but in the end, it’s really a matter of whether a female tomboy represents you accurately or whether a feminine male really represent you the best.

    Anyways, I don’t know if that helped at all or if I just got you even more confused! But I hope you can figure things out! :slight_smile:
     
  4. anatta

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    Yes, exactly, if I were male-bodied, I'd want that thin, feminine-featured fawn look, like Mr Tumness in the Lion the Witch and Wardrobe, haha. If I looked macho I'd have exactly the same problem I have now, I'd be sitting here complaining about being male.
     
  5. anatta

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    That is a good idea. I'll probably try that. Mostly it's the expectations and roles of females. Some of the expectations and roles of males don't suit me either, most especially the expectation that men don't cry easily. As much as I hate to cry in public even as a girl, I can't help it and cry very easily when anxious, stressed or angry, to some extent at films as well. But if I were a boy, I wouldn't feel self-conscious or pressured about how I look because one of the expectations of boys is they're not SUPPOSED to care how they look or be too good at choosing clothes that match. :lol: Those are just two examples.

    I don't know whether I'd be more comfortable in a male body or not, that's very hard to work out. Only a relatively soft or scrawny version of the male body would be acceptable to me. The female body doesn't particularly suit my personality in my opinion but I've never lost any sleep over it, I don't want to dwell on it and give myself a complex where there was none before. If I had a male body I'd probably be saying the same. Some transsexuals eventually decide they don't like the new body either and decide they're neutrois instead, and I'm afraid that's what would happen to me if I went down that route.

    I like humanoid alien characters with no obviously sexed body type, like Kiff from Futurama. He's identified as a male but has no physical indications of being male or female and has a pretty neutral gender expression overall. That type of body is what I think would in theory 'suit' my personality, not too undulating, soft and elaborate (symbolically 'decorated') like the female body but not too rough, right-angled and big (symbolically 'powerful' I guess) like the male. I kind of wish humans were like that species. Possibly the reason I'm leaning towards preferring a male-typical appearance is just that the male form can have a kind of genderless, Kiff-like look more easily, if you don't bulk it up and swagger about with it. Boobs and hips don't shrink as easily as muscles.

    This. This is the crux of my problem. What I've been trying to do is list the ways I'm masculine and the ways I'm feminine and the ways I'm neither, and what comes out is someone with no make-up or female-marketed clothing most of the time (which looks better on people with the 'straight-down' body type or on people who create the illusion of one), with no tattoos, big muscles or anything to mark them out as macho, who speaks with more vocal inflection and gesturing than the average male when highly engaged, is more emotionally reserved and calm-looking most of the time than people of either sex but with an outlying tendency to cry and become fearful more easily than most, and has interests spanning the gender spectrum. Really, such a person could be either a masculine female (afterall, I am one in reality) or a feminine male, but intuitively I feel feminine male-bodied person suits that particular combination better, possibly only because men don't have to strap themselves down to create that 'straight-down' look or perhaps because the masculine characteristics outweigh the feminine ones in my mind.

    Either way, I suppose that makes me a masculine female who feels being a feminine man would suit her better, but ideally would prefer a neutral body if everyone else had one too and plans to have no sex reassignment of any kind? :confused: No wonder it's taken a long time to figure out. :lol:

    Thanks dreamcatcher, a bit more makes sense now and you have given me more to think about. I'll keep updating this thread as I gain more understanding or make any decisions about how all this should affect the way I live and date. I have some counselling lined up and hopefully that will help clear things up too.

    If anyone else has any comments please continue to make them. :slight_smile:
     
  6. J Snow

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    I've been putting some thought into how my gender issues have been playing a role in my sexual orientation as well.

    For example, with my bf I've always wanted to be the "bottom." Even though it physically feels good, I feel kind of... awkward or uncomfortable topping, or even receiving oral sex. Which is somewhat odd, because I have no problem masturbating, its just when I am doing so I am usually fantasizing about being female or being penetrated as I do so, which can be confusing on its own. I really have an issue with wanting to be the feminine one in the bedroom, perhaps to an unhealthy point.

    Also, as far as females go, I've more or less always been attracted to them (except for the vagina which looks like a scary kraken >.<) however, I think the reason I identify as exclusively gay is because I don't think I could deal with being "the man." I think if I was female and had the same attractions I do, I'd be more likely to identify as bisexual.
     
  7. dreamcatcher

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    Scary kraken!!:roflmao: J snow, like i was telling Anatta before, you don't have to be "the man" if you were to pursue a relationship with a girl. There are lots of couples in which the female is the alpha male and the male is the more submissive type. If there is a girl that you do find attractive and are interested in pursing a relationship with, it would suck if you couldn't date her because you were worried about being the man! However from what you've said about vaginas looking like scary krakens, I think dating a girl might not be the right choice lol!

    Anyways, I've read your posts on your gender issues and I hope things are working out for you. It must be extremely tough but I hope that you can get to the point where you can feel comfortable with your own body and self :slight_smile:

    Anatta- Glad I could be of help. Counseling sounds like a good idea. It's helped me a bit although it's a bit slow going. Unfortunately for me, I like solutions and therapy just brings too many questions! Just remember that you don't have to fit into society's strict gender roles. It's tough considering all the social conditioning we have to go through from an early age but we're lucky to live in a time were people are more tolerant to those who don't quite fit into these cookie cutter boxes. Good luck and I hope to hear some good news in the future!