1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Gay or Not, the Evidence...

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by out2019, Jul 31, 2020.

  1. out2019

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    us
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I was inspired by this thread by user @Lynman to type this out.

    Overall:
    • I admit I am very scared and don't want to be gay but when I admit I am I feel very happy.
    • On the other hand, there are times I am very happy to not identify gay and the whole idea seems crazy.
    • For some reason 'bi' isn't even a consideration..I just instinctively say 'no'.
    • Super low self esteem. I often say "I hate myself". I have been working on that.

    Men:
    1.I can fantasize and masturbate about men easily. I can easily imagine giving sexual pleasure like a blow job and get aroused. I remember when I tried to masturbate when I was 14 - I tried all the hot girls. I was literally rubbing myself raw.. Then I thought of one guy out of the blue and I ejaculated in less than a minute. A strong desire to receive anal intercourse
    2. On the street 99%of the time the idea of touching a guy is revolting. However, if I see a woman with a nice ass I imagine doing stuff to her ass, but when I fantasize at home it's a guy. One exception. The ballet, something about the softness of the men there (costumes make up) I can easily imagine being with them. But that more makes it to be a sexual fantasy...
    3. I did start to notice a couple of guys on the street when I admitted I was gay here -but 99% of the time it's still women. I was able to deeply fantasize about dating and having sex with one guy at my gym though.
    4. When I look in the mirror and say 'i am gay' i feel very happy and warm
    5. I have a desire to date men and have romantic fantasies.


    Women:
    1. I admire beautiful women. I really like women who dress well. I see and notice beautiful women all the time. I don't notice guys that much.
    2. I love feminine things.
    3. I am really really into girls asses - looking at them but I can't seem or it's very hard to imagine getting sexually aroused, but I can have sex doggy style. I want to impulsively touch women and feel them on the street.
    4. Sometimes I can get aroused or have masturbatory fantasies about women.
    5. sometimes I see a very beautiful woman on the street and get super 'excited' - I wouldn't' say sexually aroused but very worked up.
    6. When I feel a lower sex drive I don't fee attracted to men and I feel attracted to women. When I am in 'gay heat' it feels more like an 'acting out' of something like an addiction, if that makes sense.
    7.Romantic fantasies aren't as vivid but I sometimes feel a longing and desire for it
     
    LaraB and Bastion like this.
  2. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    14,826
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I think if you look at what you've written with an objective eye, there's really no argument. Lots of genuine sexual attraction toward men, going back to age 14. (That, in itself, is pretty definitive). Lots of angst and discomfort about that. No meaningful indication of solid sexual interest in women.

    For the record, lots of gay men admire beautiful women who dress well. Why do you think so many awesome fashion designers for women are gay men? As for the others... all can be explained by what your conscious is trying to rationalize, rather than what your actual core drives are.
     
    Bastion and out2019 like this.
  3. out2019

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    us
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    it can be very confusing and it can feel like attraction
     
    Bastion likes this.
  4. Bastion

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Toronto
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    So what is really the deciding factor when it comes down to the sexuality of men and women. How can you really tell if you are this or that.

    Men and Women through out the ages have been having sex both ways for different reasons.

    Is it just about the sex itself. That is getting off whatever means possible and with whoever to satisfy a need. Or is it more complicated than that.

    Because there are people these days that say they are ‘mostly straight’ yet tend to have same sex encounters whether for monetary reasons or otherwise. I believe some research and books have been written about this subject.

    Where do we draw the line?

    Does a person’s sexual acts define who he is as whole?
     
  5. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    14,826
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Sexual acts don't define who someone is. People are "gay for pay" and people who are 100% straight have same-sex encounters in prison as an outlet for sexual energy (or desires for violence, for that matter), but go back to 100% hetero relationships once out of prison.

    What it really boils down to is where your fantasies lie. And one of the best ways to examine this is masturbation fantasies without porn. What happens when you think about men vs women when masturbating.

    In the OP's case, going back to age 14, he was much more strongly aroused by thoughts of men than thoughts of women. That's extremely telling, because those thoughts overwhelmed the messages everyone gets from society that guys are supposed to like girls. So that's a message coming from the unconscious, which is where the hardwired orientation is most visible and present. Compare that to what he describes about women, and the fantasies aren't really sexual, they are more about admiration and appreciation, which tends to be less sexual and is a lot more likely to be conditioned rather than hard wired.

    The sexual acts by themselves don't mean much. What matters is the intent behind them. Masturbating with intention and mindfulness and self-awareness can yield an orgasm experience far more intense than, say, a random sexual encounter with someone you met off the street or off of a hookup app. The real, powerful, meaningful sexual experience is one where there's a genuine connection, a genuine sense of deep intimacy and vulnerabilty, and one that is mindful of the energy and connection between the two people. And f that's going to only be present with someone that you have the hardwired attraction for and connection to... which, for the majority of the population, tends to be one sex or the other, with a smaller number of folks where it's literally in the middle.

    Lastly, our fear of being "different", of telling people, of 'upsetting the apple cart' if we are already in a relationship, of losing that relationship... all of those are huge impediments that get in the way of finding our authentic self if we're a little later in life and in a relationship. It's uncomfortable, shameful and embarrassing to say "Yeah, about me being straight for the last 35 years... not so much." But the truth is, most people understand, actually, that it can take years or decades for people to be comfortable coming to terms with who they are.

    The trick is getting to the place where the discomfort of standing still is greater than the fear of moving into the unknown. In most cases, the decision to move into the unknown is a lot more fear-inducing than actually going into it... but once one makes that decision and starts taking the steps, it typically gets easier.
     
    don72tx, out2019, Contented and 3 others like this.
  6. Contented

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2017
    Messages:
    893
    Likes Received:
    1,164
    Location:
    Upstate NY
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Chip is spot on about standing still. It is much scarier thinking about making the jump into the unknown than the actual jump itself. I was a prime example however by keeping my forward progress it’s got easier and easier to finally embrace being gay. Acceptance follows and then at least for me I became comfortable being a gay man and openly admitting it. As my fantasies became my reality I started to enjoy life on a much richer and deeper level.
     
  7. out2019

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    us
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    But many people have fantasies they don't want, right? Or they can be a way of enjoying sex by overcoming some internal barrier -guilt or shame- for example the 'good ' girl who can only enjoy sex when she imagined she is forced to have it.
    Taboo breaking can be another 'turn on' for people? But I do see your point, if consistently you get aroused by imagining sex with men but not women it's a pretty good indicator of orientation. But it is very possible to enjoy the physical act of sex ...it just... feels good..

    From the unconscious is right! I still can remember that night so vividly I was trying so hard to 'get off' on the cute girls - out of not where it came and I had the most intense orgasm of my then young life. I can still fantasize about him...
     
  8. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    14,826
    Likes Received:
    2,749
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Yes, and the thing to remember is... sexual orientation is there, whether we want it or not. It doesn't change because we wish it were different. This is the painful process that so many people go through, especially those raised in deeply religious families, where they are shunned, judged, sent to "straight camp", or literally tossed on the street. Those folks would clearly change if they could... but they can't.

    Huge difference between a fetish and a sexual orientation.
     
    out2019 likes this.
  9. Bastion

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Toronto
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    So people can enjoy the physical act of sex with someone but not have a deeper level of connection. But I have never had any level of connection of that kind with both sexes. Maybe because of somewhat stricter religious upbringing where any sexual act like is a sin outside of marriage, even masturbation is frowned upon. and the norms of society and the indoctrination of heteronormativity can be so ingrained in a person that even when he tries to experiment he would feel he is doing something wrong. He feels the immense scrutiny. That could be in his head but also some underhanded comments some very blunt and hurtful and some just between the lines or the look of disgust or disrespect it or the jokes. And Also some based on some exaggerated lies and gossip because they don’t even know the person that well. This could be very very difficult to deal with for a person and he will say why would he even subject himself to something when he can be just like anybody else.

    That Aside. How can one really differentiate between a fetish and an orientation?
     
  10. Bastion

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Toronto
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all

    @out2019

    So where are you on the journey now. And How close would you say you are at demystifying or uncovering the evidence of sexuality or orientation?
     
  11. Lyman

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    Munchkinland
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Oh, I'm flattered! Am I starting my own lineage of verbose ECers that love spoiler blocks?! But seriously, It's great to see that my process is being useful to other people. Just make sure you don't trust me too much as a role model, as I honestly don't know what I'm doing half of the time. :/

    Regarding the evidence you present, Out2019, I don't know enough to dare to give you my opinion on what it indicates or not... I'll just say what I always say — listening to Chip is a very good idea. Way before I joined EC, when he said something and I reacted like “What? That can't be true, can it?”, guess who always turned out to be right after some time passed... I'll give you a clue — it was not the guy that ignored mounting evidence of being gay for 25 years. *Sighs in gay*

    This post is great per se, but the best thing is that it made me discover Contented's past threads. Today I've spent a long time reading them. I highly recommend them to anyone that hasn't completely accepted themselves yet or that are in the process of coming out. If you want to do it saving some time, you can see the best among the best by tracing which posts I've liked recently. Anyway, make sure you start with the oldest ones, so that you get no spoilers. ^^
     
    out2019 and Bastion like this.
  12. Bastion

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Toronto
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
    Ok I must say am intrigued and curious to know more. Maybe i will backtrack and check older posts.
     
  13. out2019

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    us
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    None us know what we're doing, probably because we spent so much time denying and rationalizing Your posts have been incredibly helpful Sorry I got your name wrong!
     
  14. out2019

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    us
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I started to come out but went into the denial some of it on this forum, I think I have to take real steps in the real world...a little hard under current conditions :slight_smile:
     
  15. Lyman

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    Munchkinland
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I know you're aware of my coming out thread...
    I don't know enough about you to be sure that this is good advice. But, if you're like me, according to my own experience, don't wait until there are no “but” 's... That might take very long or might never happen. Just keep moving forward, in the way your gut points to. Forget about fears and insecurities, which will only vanish once you've made further progress.
     
    Bastion and out2019 like this.
  16. out2019

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    us
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I was just thinking about this...I definitely don't regret looking at myself and questioning, but really it's just a matter of unloading all the lies I piled on top of this experience.

    Honestly I felt a pang of jealousy - and this desire to just be happy about being gay.
     
  17. Bastion

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Toronto
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all
     
    out2019 likes this.
  18. Bastion

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2020
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    21
    Location:
    Toronto
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Not out at all

    Actually I may relate to that a bit. I know it’s different for everyone. But I had a brief period where I was coming to terms with being different to a certain degree. It failed afterwards from complicated situations and backlashes. I will try to talk about it more I hope in upcoming posts.
     
    out2019 likes this.
  19. out2019

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2018
    Messages:
    411
    Likes Received:
    246
    Location:
    us
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    So:

    In my internal fantasy life, I would say I was about 90% gay. Intense fantasies romantic and sexual.
    In my on the street life, I look at women all the time and am generally fascinated by them and their bodies and feel a desire to touch them - mostly their rear ends. That's the confusing part.
     
    Journey616 likes this.
  20. Lyman

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2020
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    30
    Location:
    Munchkinland
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I'm far younger and from a much more progressive country. So it's no wonder I defeated denial more quickly. Given where and when you were born, you shouldn't think you're making progress too slowly or with too many twists and turns... Because it's not the case.

    Thanks for reading them! I'm happy they're useful, given the insane amount of hours of thinking, writing and proofreading there's behind them.

    Dw, it's not even my real name. As I love privacy, I use a different identity everywhere online. Here I chose a profile related to The Wizard of Oz because it's something stereotypically gay that I've always loved. Lyman was Frank Baum's first name and, by the way, he hated it.

    On a different note, some of your “women” items sound like things that used to confuse me:
    At least in my case (I'm not saying that you're gay — only you can tell), I explain #6 as follows... We're not machines, so we're not always in the right mood for sex. When we're not “up for it”, the objects of our sexual desire don't feel so different from anything else and we can convince ourselves that “a butt is a butt”. But, if you like men and not women, when you're horny, you feel drawn to them with a wild, primary, crazy, overwhelming, and animal instinct. Thinking “She has a really nice body” is just thinking, not attraction.

    As for #7, I've always been able to trick myself into believing that love/lust is simply about thinking a certain woman ticks some boxes and wanting to be emotionally intimate with her and spend more time with her. Even if those boxes include admiring her for being beautiful, that's just friendship. It's more than friendship if being sexual with her feels like something you *want* to do, instead fo something you *can* do. For more on this, see my “Shred” thread. 99.9 % of what I say there is indisputable evidence of being gay.

    Anyway, take this all with a grain of salt. I don't know a lot about sexuality. And I'm not even a good role model when it comes to figuring out, as I'm still doing cycles of progress and regression. I don't know when nor how, but I'm sure I will end up being scared at some point. Anyway, the overall trend is positive.

    I've never felt that. Neither with women nor with men... So I can't help you with this.
     
    #20 Lyman, Aug 2, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2020
    out2019 likes this.