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Fragility of Masculinity

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by dyl pickle, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. dyl pickle

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    I suppose I've always known this, but I began to notice more recently how fragile masculinity seems to be. I feel like females can be quite masculine and still be assumed to be female, just a tomboy (or those who instantly assume lesbian) but when men do anything slightly feminine, they are attacked and called faggots. Don't get me wrong, it's definitely getting better, especially in the media like with Covergirl. The other day, I noticed a guy getting bashed for preferring to play female characters. Can't people just play as the character they like, express themselves how they want, and act how they want without instantly being attacked for it?

    If I have some inflated sense of this or if I'm not realising that this can be equally as bad for women too, my apologies.
     
  2. Creativemind

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    Yeah, I agree with you. Women can sometimes be discriminated against harshly for being too masculine, but it has to get extreme for it to happen. For example, I would get a lot of shit if I walked around with hairy legs or a buzzcut because I wanted to, but I can do more minor "guy" things like play video games or work with tools.

    However, it seems like masculinity is more fragile....even for minor things. What you wear (even if it's not legit crossdressing), what you do, what you're into. My uncle is a good example of this. He is straight and cisgender, but has a bit more "girly" interests. He prefers to cook for the family, he loves flowers and gardening, he loves cats (though I don't see why this is feminine??), His favorite TV show is a sitcom that appeals mostly to women (and gay men). His older brother always called him a "fag" and a "pansy" and he's not even gay. Just really sad and pathetic.
     
  3. jadey95

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    Yesss, this is so true. I can't be taken seriously as a trans person if I do anything feminine because I'm seen as 'actually my birth gender'.

    It's all sad really.
     
  4. dyl pickle

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    exactly.

    ---------- Post added 28th Mar 2017 at 04:51 PM ----------

    it's the same thing with me and honestly, sometimes it sucks because I'll even start to convince myself of it.
     
  5. gravechild

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    I could rant and rave about this all day. It seems men are men's own worst enemies. A lot of these things are just taken for granted, but at the same time, don't envy women at all for their problems. Honestly, as much as I'd love for all these silly double standards to go away, I think more people are comfortable with things this way...
     
  6. radioqueen

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    Hey y'all,

    A while ago I considered the possibility of me being transgender, but I realized that wasn't at all me. I thought of this just because occasionally I like to do "masculine" things and I never do "feminine" things, and when I was little I wore underwear made for what society considers to be little boys because I liked the patterns--panties with cartoon characters on them were hard for my mom to find.

    I've always thought both transmen and transwomen have had it hard in different ways. For one, MTFs get a ton of hate if they so much as dare to wear makeup. If they happen to be in the wrong situation, they could get seriously attacked, physically or verbally. On the other hand, FTMs are often not even thought of as male if they don't explicitly state that they wish to go by he/him/his because of the existence of tomboys and people like that. If they don't completely and utterly pass as a masculine man, they might be continuously misgendered.

    One thing I thought was weird was when I was in the hospital with some people who had severe depression and anxiety. There were two transgender guys and they both had short hair. Because it was a medical environment, their birth names were often used instead of their desired name because these medical people were reading off a list and simply didn't know that the trans guys wanted to go by a different name. Of course the people who worked with us every day did know, though. There was an assistant of some kind who was aware that there were transgender guys here, and I guess because they didn't look male enough in his eyes he didn't know who wanted to be called he--and here's the interesting part--he called everyone who looked feminine and had short hair "he," and I found this out because I had short hair. This is my inference though, I don't know if it was every feminine-looking person with short hair or if I was the only one who got mixed up with the trans guys, and I think he did this subconsciously, but I think it's interesting nonetheless.

    I hope you'll allow me to be in the conversation even though I'm a cisgender female. It's not necessarily here but it's in other places where I hear people saying "only people of color can have a say in this" which I think is pretty counterproductive if someone wants change to come about, because by being in the conversation is how people learn about these things, but I digress.

    There are still things I observe in the community. I certainly don't experience anything that transgender people go through, but of course no transgender person has the same experiences as another either. I hope I didn't say anything offensive, but if I did, I'd be okay with being told that! I can always learn. Society is odd in my opinion, but that discussion is for a different time and place. <3

    Bee

    ---------- Post added 28th Mar 2017 at 02:31 PM ----------

    And, of course, this doesn't only affect transgender people. Should've mentioned that.

    ---------- Post added 28th Mar 2017 at 02:36 PM ----------

    Men are definitely men's own worst enemies, and women are women's own worst enemies. I think generally these problems come from members of the same gender. Women were the ones who bound their daughters' feet in China in the past. Men are the ones who will call out another man's masculinity (sorry, I don't have a great example for this one but I know they're out there).
     
  7. jadey95

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    Sorry, I trimmed a lot of this because I don't have the time right now to respond to everything, but I really liked everything you had to say. I think it's fine for you to be in this conversation as everyone is affected by toxic masculinity. I don't see this conversation as trans only. And I think the only time someone not in a group shouldn't join is if they're trying to speak over someone which you're not doing at all.

    But, yes, trans women I think have to really prove their trans because if they're wearing makeup they're 'trying too hard' and if they aren't 'they aren't really a girl'. And then yesss trans guys get told too much they're just a tomboy. I always was thought to be a hardcore tomboy by people who knew I was a girl at birth.

    Thanks so much for your input. I really enjoyed this.
     
    #7 jadey95, Mar 28, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
  8. Casey221B

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    A guy I know said people called him gay because he likes to build terrariums. Like how is that related to the perceived femininity of gay guys? And recently, I asked a guy in my class if he would rather go on a date with Ed Sheeran or Ronald Weasley and he was like I don't know, I'm straight. Well I'm not and I still know I would rather go on a date with Ron!
     
  9. Daydreamer1

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    The amount of it from trans people is the worst. I was in a group for trans guys; and one person had the nerve to tell a guy who posted a pic of a wine cooler he was enjoying that he's not a real man for liking "bitch beer" and not whiskey. Really? Are you fucking kidding me?

    Is this what people mean when they talk about masculine fragility? If so, it's embarrassing to know what people will get into a pissing contest over. I really don't get it at all, since I'm sure they know what it was like getting gay bashed for more than likely being hypermasculine before coming out. I don't know what it's like on the other side of the fence, but I hope it's not as bad as how it is here. I thought the point of being a marginalized community is that we lift each other when the world pushes us down.
     
  10. jadey95

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    Yes, it's so sad that even within the community there are issues. And a lot of them would be like "I can't be a bigot, I'm trans too!" :dry:
     
  11. Daydreamer1

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    Man, if I had a dollar for every time I heard that or something similar. It's really surprising to me to know I've seen or heard vaguely homophobic comments from trans people than the other way around. Well, in my experience at least, but I remember when the LGB community pitched a fit over a certain gag from RuPaul's Drag Race being removed for being insensitive, and being so cold towards trans people.
     
  12. jadey95

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    I've heard it mostly the other way around, but I've seen both. Yes, RuPaul can get pretty bad at times. Makes me think of how I knew a lot of LGB who wanted the T removed. Do they not know the whole reason why that T is there? A lot of LGB people who started the rights movements were also trans.
     
  13. anthracite

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    Kinda ridiculous. I played few female characters, mostly because it was the only one available, but how can staring on a nice ass while playing make you a "faggot"?

    But serioulsy the most annoying is these children in adult bodys who think men should wear shit to be manly instead of having the colours matched. Or burp constantly. You can do that when you're around your guys, NOT IN THE COMPANY OF A WOMAN. Not to mention they have no idea about arts and manners and basically everything that goes beyong behaving like a barbarian. When I look at them eating I hear my mothers voice: "PUT YOUR ELLBOWS OFF THE TABLE!!" Do they have no mom or something who taught them?

    It's not called gay, it's called gentleman.
     
  14. Kodo

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    Precisely.

    You all have excellent points. I wish we could live in a world where gender stereotypes weren't so engrained. Let men and women, trans or not, be interested in what they like. Let them be people. Hobbies, colours, drinks, video games, books, films, art, fashion, food... None of these have genders. So why do we act like they do?
     
  15. Daydreamer1

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    The funny part was the people who would say that we need to come together as a community to support each other, were the same people to say that we were whining about wanting the segment taken away and how we need to grow up. :dry:
     
  16. Eldridge

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    I've never understood how "men without feelings" get so frustrated over "non masculin" things it's something that I've been subjected too because of unfortunately how I appear to people and I can't be feminine i must be masculin because I look like a burly man and when they realise I'm not there's a lot of damaged masculinity that I don't totally understand I mean I still use male pronouns (although I'm probably gonna change that, they are starting to feel uncomfortable with me. Even when I identify as male) I play rugby but god forbid I enjoy dresses and heels and makeup it's almost as bad as my parents view on my sexuality and also oddly cosplay
     
  17. clockworkfox

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    Ugh, toxic masculinity...

    I have friends of various genders, but I've never been able to fit in with the proverbial "guys" because they're so...dull. Whenever anything might not be perceived as masculine enough, they back the fuck outta there and won't touch it with a 12 foot pole because hold the phone, you can't forget how straight and manly they are!