1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Do you violate copyright?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Vega222, Dec 17, 2020.

  1. Vega222

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2015
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    28
    Location:
    Iran
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Do you respect copyright and buy books, software, songs, etc that you want to use?
    In my occupied country there is no such a thing called copyright. Especially for works produced by foreigners. Almost no way to respect the owners' rights by buying these things from them. Like everyone else here I download anything I need from the Internet without paying the owners. What do you think about that?

    I don't think I am to be blamed for this at all. But it still doesn't make me quite fine with that.
     
  2. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    15,514
    Likes Received:
    3,333
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Particularly as a software developer, I'd think you'd see the problem with this: If everyone steals whatever you create, and no one buys it, then there's no money to pay you to write more software. So basically, if you're stealing everything, why should anyone pay you to develop anything? For that matter, why, when someone hires you to write software, should they even pay you for the software you've written, if nobody has any respect for copyright? Why not just steal directly from you?
     
  3. Austin

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2008
    Messages:
    3,171
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    All I’ll say is I agree with giving the content creators their fair share. However there are circumstances where that is made extremely difficult, in my opinion. I haven’t watched much anime lately but prior to crunchyroll I remember there was not really a legal channel to get English-subtitled anime that I knew of. And even now, with crunchyroll, I’m pretty sure you can only “rent” it and not “buy” it, which is annoying. And, regarding music — I hardly listen to music so I’m not sure they still do it — Apple used to make it really annoying when you bought their music. They wouldn’t just give you a damn unrestricted MP3 file, it would always be some weird file type that would have annoying restrictions to freely transfer it between devices etc. I think things are getting easier nowadays, though.
     
    #3 Austin, Dec 26, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2020
  4. Vega222

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2015
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    28
    Location:
    Iran
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Hmm, Seems reasonable to me. My situation is something like that but a bit more complicated maybe. If I want to buy something legally, let's say a book that is 50$, then I have to spend a huge share of my monthly salary (maybe half!) to just buy that book. Dollar is very expensive here!
    And I can't even buy it directly from Amazon or other shops. It'll be through some middleman shops. I can't do it myself because there is no functionality to directly shop from abroad here.
    I wish I could buy anything I want instead of downloading them on some random websites. Especially there are some products that I've used so much and would be happy to thank and pay their owners. And also some stuff can't be found on the Internet to download and I'd love them to have.
     
  5. Destin

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    710
    Location:
    The United States
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I see it more as the owner's fault for not having things in place to protect their stuff, than the average person's fault for getting it for free.

    It goes against human nature to pay for something you can get for free. Why would you ever turn down the free thing...it makes no sense. It doesn't matter how much money someone has, they're still going to want it for free just because they can.

    What the intelligent owners should do is to provide it for free themselves, but control the way it's distributed to manipulate that for personal gain. Publish it on a website that they own and get ad revenue from, so every time someone gets it for free, you're still indirectly making money from them visiting your website anyway. Or sell small subscriptions to your website full of free stuff, instead of selling individual pieces of it. It's worth the subscription money for the convenience of being able to get whatever you want from the website in any category instead of having to track down the stolen free version every single time you want anything.

    I think ######## is a good example of that. There's tons of free porn, and it's incredibly easy to steal it. Stuff gets stolen off of ######## pages all the time...but it doesn't matter, because it's worth the $5 or whatever for people to see all the pictures they want instead of only having access to the handful of stolen ones they have to hunt for to get free. Bella Thorne already had leaked free nudes all over the internet, but made over a million dollars in one day when she made an account there because people valued the new content, not just knowing what she looks like naked.
     
    #5 Destin, Dec 26, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 26, 2020
  6. Vega222

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2015
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    28
    Location:
    Iran
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Ok, But it doesn't totally justify others' act of using their work without paying for it. But that's another story.
    In my case, I do want to buy them legally but as long as I live in this country, I simply can't.
    What about your favourite artists that you sometimes interact with? I'd really feel uncomfortable to talk with someone that I like, applauding/criticising their works while I didn't buy them and simply download it from the good Internet.
     
  7. Destin

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    710
    Location:
    The United States
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    It sucks for them to not make as much money as they could from it, but that's just the risk of the industry they picked. I work in a medical office, you know how many people never pay their medical bills and continue coming in anyway? Tons. At least 20% of the time when I pull up someone's medical chart there's a message like "$750 in collections from a year ago." Doesn't stop the person from coming back to see their doctor despite knowing they've owed him money for a year they have no intention of paying. It's just how the industry works. Yes it's kinda awkward treating someone you know isn't going to pay you, but it is what it is.
     
  8. Canterpiece

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2015
    Messages:
    1,492
    Likes Received:
    40
    Location:
    England
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Usually I try to follow copyright, but I have violated it before. It's difficult when there's a show or a film that simply isn't available without paying for a platform when you're only interested in one thing on there. Sites like YouTube have tried to offer specific series for a price but the episodes are always in the wrong order or there's only about five on there when you were looking for the series in full. If YouTube ever gets their act together then I'd happily pay a small fee for a specific season. Some places offer free trials and it tends to be easier to just use them rather than dodgy sites, although if it's for something that is likely to be gradually updated then that's trickier. I do wish sometimes more places would offer a "only pay for what you want" option. Particularly annoying if you want to see an independent film that's not commercially available in your country. Especially if you want to support them but can't. The fact that we've moved on from CDs and DVDs is somewhat disappointing because it means that we're always renting works rather than owning them until the disk breaks.
     
  9. Hypernova

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2020
    Messages:
    213
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Planet Earth of the Solar System
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I used to, but then I felt bad, so now I don't.
     
  10. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    15,514
    Likes Received:
    3,333
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Keep in mind, we are about the only country in the world where individuals go into debt over medical bills. And for the most part, medical care is a necessity. Movies and music are not. So one can justify getting medical care that they need in order to survive. No such justification is possible for stealing music or movies.

    As for the idea of protecting one's assets to keep them from being stolen... it is virtually impossible. Just about all of the major platforms that attempted DRM (digital rights management) solutions have abandoned them because they (a) didn't protect the content effectively and (b) made it often impossible to actually use the content people paid for, because the DRM never worked correctly.

    On a pragmatic level, if you teach people that theft of other people's property is OK, well, it's going to be hard to make money off of said property. The current generation of people under 25 have, for the most part, grown up with the idea that almost any content on the 'net can be had for free, so why pay for it? Or you can get "all you can eat" for $10 a month on Netflix or Spotify. But the problem with the latter is, for the most part, unless you are a major artist, you get totally shafted.

    Most musicians are almost literally starving right now, because, thanks to a backdoor deal between Spotify and the major record labels, artists make nearly nothing off of plays on Spotify, while the labels profit handsomely. Artists who previously made 100K, 200K, 500K a year off of album sales are now making 5K or 10K. If they don't tour, they're broke. The only thing keeping some of them afloat is Patreon or similar donation programs.

    So we have a combination of shady Silicon Valley companies that inserted themselves as middlemen and bled out all of the income, the proliferation of pirated content and little limitation or retribution against platforms that allow for the distribution of stolen content. Youtube was built 100% on stolen content. Now, much of it is original, but there is still a ton of stolen content on there, and Google simply doesn't care, because they monetize it. And who's going to argue with Google? Same with Facebook and many other platforms.

    So at the end of the day, what it boils down to is personal integrity. For those who care about artists, authors, musicians, software engineers, and others who create content, software, and other property that creates value and beauty in your life, you should support them by buying their content. You should also, whenever possible, buy directly from them or as close to that as you can so that they actually get your money. Or... for those who don't care about personal integrity, you can keep stealing content. But then, if everyone does that, eventually, no one will be making new content/art/music. And that will be very sad.
     
  11. Mihael

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    2,684
    Likes Received:
    523
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    From another viewpoint: dowloading files from unofficial spurces carries risk of infecting your computer. It’s especialy true for software, including games.

    When I can, I buy. Frequently there is no license for my country, especially for the medium-known aritists and works. (Anime) Or stores act like burglars : they make you buy something and you give them your credit card number and then collect your money without your approval “because small print and oh, we changed the policy since you agreed to terms and conditions”. I also find iTunes to be a pain and inadequately priced (5 times the norm of stationary shops? Seriously?) and there is hardly anything with a local license.

    Youtube content usually seems like it’s pirate content, when it comes to series and movies. I wouldn’t pay them additionally for it.

    Um, why on earth would you think that? It wouldn’t cross my mind to do that. It’s not “human nature”, it’s some people’s nature and it’s in the direction of antisocial personality. Sorry, but it takes little empathy to think that stealing is okay just because you have the possibility and it’s the other person’s job to make it impossible / to not trust others. It’s a token antisocial personality statement what you just said - stealing just because you have the possibility. And yes, people will get angry at you for it, because that sort pf behaviour is a problem for everyone around.
     
  12. RD Spencer

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2020
    Messages:
    161
    Likes Received:
    70
    Location:
    Western Wa
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    When I was a teenager my friends and I would copy and share music, copying onto tapes from CD or other tapes. Still bought a lot of CD’s though, many of them weren’t worth what I paid for them. A lot of time the only good song was the one I already heard and the rest sucked. There use to be a music store called Block Buster Music that would let you listen to the music to see if you like it before buying it. I also made tape copies of CD’s I bought to keep in the car so my CD’s didn’t get trashed. Had a handful of friends that we did the online file and torrent sharing as well.

    The thing is that it takes time and work for people to create music, moves and software. The copyrights exist to help make sure they get paid for their hard work as most people have food to buy and bills to pay. Without being paid for their work there is no incentive to innovate, build or create.

    This is something I learned more about over there years and have move away from the free downloading and copying. If I want someone to pay for my time then it is only fair that I pay for theirs.
     
  13. Destin

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    710
    Location:
    The United States
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Conservation of resources is indeed human nature. It's evolutionarily drawn from the need to hoard food and living space to survive harsh winters and natural disasters.

    Most of us don't really worry about food anymore in modern times, so it has extended to everything else we want/need. Spending money on things you can get for free wastes resources which could be allocated towards things you cannot get for free. The only thing that overpowers that is the morality of feeling bad about directly harming another person, like stealing from a store, since you know for a fact that you're harming the owner of the store by doing it. The internet is rarely seen as a person, so there's usually no guilt from stealing from it, which causes the conservation of resources to outweigh the morality.

    It's not antisocial personality disorder, it's evolution combined with the facelessness of the internet.
     
  14. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    15,514
    Likes Received:
    3,333
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    That isn't quite the same thing as stealing stuff that isn't essential because you want it and believe you're entitled to it.

    That perspective is, actually, on the antisocial spectrum.
     
  15. Vega222

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2015
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    28
    Location:
    Iran
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Almost all of people I've ever seen don't care about it here. Absolute majority of them probably don't even think about it in their life, but to some extend it's not the fault of themselves. Because here there is no copyright law that is imposed by government (except, loosely for local products) and also it's not easy to buy a foreign products legally. The state TVs don't buy movies or football matches or anything themselves and just steal them.

    If someone here wants to buy something legally, it'd be for getting a good quality product. Like those cracked software could contain a virus or bug or something, rather than feeling bad for not paying the owner.
    As an exception, My friend once said I feel bad for using products without paying for them, especially for those which I've used very much. He is now a senior developer living in Europe.

    Unlike others here, I feel bad not paying for products. Especially when I want to interact with the owner. My question is what would you do?
     
    #15 Vega222, Jan 9, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  16. Destin

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    710
    Location:
    The United States
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    If that's true, then nearly the entirety of the business world is antisocial. Considering the main purpose of a manager beyond getting the product finished is to push costs as low as possible, get free things wherever possible (like marketing) etc. to increase profit margins.
     
  17. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    15,514
    Likes Received:
    3,333
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Indeed, a lot has been written about how many CEOs and senior leadership have, in recent years, exhibited antisocial traits. But that isn't what we're talking about here... we're speaking about individual and societal values.

    And that is, indeed, one of the major problems that current society is facing, and why so many values, such as common decency, are completely falling apart. This was not originally the case, and that perspective is, for the most part, an American one.

    "Getting things free" isn't synonymous with "stealing." They are very different. Ethical managers understand that society needs a common code of understanding, respect for intellectual property, and an understanding of basic human values that people don't steal from one another. For example, a very large portion of the online world runs on free, open-source software. This reduces cost and provides high reliabiliity, and everyone benefits. But then there are ways, such as offshoring work to countries where labor is cheap and can be exploited, and there are no human rights protections.

    I'm honestly surprised that you really don't see these issues, and understand why, particularly as someone training to be a physician, human rights, a basic level of human decency, respect for property and rule of law, is necessary for human beings to survive and thrive.
     
  18. Destin

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    2,052
    Likes Received:
    710
    Location:
    The United States
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I see it, but I don't think it's enforceable on an individual level. The government willfully ignores tons of things bad for society, and without them taking a direct interest in it private citizens aren't going to do very much about it themselves. What counts as human rights, values and decency is different to every person too. For example some people see medical care as a right that should be free, some see it as a commodity to be traded like any other. The only opinion on it that matters is the one the government picks since they can actually enforce it.

    Personally, I think they need to choose one half or the other instead of this half and half system we have now. As a student, why would I bother taking and paying a loan of almost $1,000,000 after interest to go to medical school which puts me in a severely unstable financial position, if I'm then expected to treat everyone for free as a human right even if they can't pay me. My loan payments and mortgage aren't going to just disappear because none of my patients could pay me that month. It's a huge losing proposition for physicians to pay a crapload of their own money to go to school only to not get paid for the results of that school. If people want medical care to be a human right, then they need to remove all of the personal risk from it for physicians by making medical school free and not allowing medical malpractice lawsuits. If I treat you for free because I have to and I mess up, you shouldn't be able to sue me, otherwise I gained nothing while losing a lot by being required to help you which is very unfair.

    If it's free to become a physician and there's no way to lose money from lawsuits, then sure, make medical care a free human right. As long as there's any personal monetary investment from the physician, it can't be a free human right while not screwing the physician over.

    It's the same thing but other fields like computer stuff. Why spend 100k getting a computer science degree if everything you program is going to be stolen as soon as you put it up for sale. The government or organization you work for needs to put effective things in place to prevent that instead of just telling people stealing is wrong and expecting everyone to not do it.