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Do you think people like J K Rowling are queerphobic or just ignorants?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by LullabyNY, Sep 28, 2023.

  1. LullabyNY

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    I was always wondering this.
    To me they don't look like queerphobic just ignorants, especially Elon Musk looks more like bad educated.
    I like to say we share a pretty similar behavior but the biggest difference is how I treat people: I try to never insult people, to be polite with everybody.
    This made me thinking he isn't evil, he just was educated in the worst way.
    J K Rowling in my opinion really try to help queer community but her ignorance is the difference.
    If she wouldn't be ignorant she wouldn't say that things.

    I don't think any of them are queerphobic, just ignorants... that's the difference.
     
  2. Ran

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    Many lgbt+ people were fans of J.K Rowling me included. I wasn't aware of her transphobia and I heard about it here on EC first. It really rubbed me the wrong way, because she seemed this down to earth person and how she wrote her books despite hardships were an inspiration to me. I can't enjoy the books now or support an author who has said to be openly transphobic, though she denies it. Her actions, views and statements do display transphobia and she was opposed to Scotland's gender recognition bill. And why be concerned with toilets? It's a toilet. I have used men's toilet plenty of times despite presenting as female. Even some of the actors in her movies have criticised her comments. Though I understand that she has been abused before, but you can deal with it in therapy not publicly, like most people. If she would have handled it better, then I think there would be more people who would be emphatetic towards her.
     
  3. JT1999

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    Some women I know are very adamant about not wanting to share female only spaces with anyone not born female. Genuine transwomen are not a threat to women IMO, but there is definitely a problem with men. There are a lot of weirdos out there and they will use the "I'm self identifying as female excuse" to access female only spaces for their own gratification and worst case, some of them are actual predators likely to harm women. I don't think that much of the resistance to Scotland's gender recognition bill comes from genuine transphobia, I think it comes from genuine fear of men. But it does mean that genuine transwomen are 'collateral damage'. Women are absolutely right to be wary of unknown men when they are in a private space. To me, that's the point JKR is trying to make, but she could have made it clearer and no doubt the media will have taken some of her points of view out of context too, in order to generate outrage.
     
  4. JT1999

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    Not claiming to speak for men here - if any men disagree then feel free to correct me - but I don't think most men give two hoots about who uses their toilets, as they don't consider themselves to be at risk either from perverts or physical/sexual assault. Or at least, they're not at risk of people born female doing those things. Its men that are the vast majority of offenders, even when the victims are other males. When I was a young kid my dad used to stand outside the ladies toilets while I was inside, but would he have been comfortable doing that if someone obviously born male had walked in first? It's a dilemma for sure, because you want to think the best of people but you also have to be cautious of people you don't know as there are some real wronguns out there. And a parent's instincts are always going to fall on the side of protection.
     
  5. Ran

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    Not to argue here. I understand all the points. I'm just thinking that public toilets aren't really a safe space for anyone. If someone wants to attack someone they will do it despite the gender label on the door. I mean sure, if that label offers that comfort that there are women only there, but with toilets, there are usually closed in toilet stalls, so I don't really understand the issue. You can be a woman and feel unsafe at the womens toilets as well. It is all a dilemma, but there could be gender neutral toilets, like I saw in one of the universities. It was a big open space with closed in stalls and sinks in a row outside against a wall. No gender issue.

    I feel though it's a differen't topic. Sorry for detrailing it.
     
  6. mnguy

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    I was taught ignorant, racist and prejudice things too, but I questioned them, especially after knowing I'm gay, and I chose to reject them as wrong. You can listen to the majority of queer people of all types and a common thread is we knew these things about ourselves for most of our lives and we see them in hindsight too. We were not taught to have these parts of us, yet we still did and people always will. She and others should believe us, we didn't ask for this, knowing about queer people has never made anyone queer in any way, but visibility and acceptance does help us understand ourselves and not go through hell most of us have. There is no reason for us to be treated this way and it's inhumane. We just want to live authentically like anyone but they won't allow us the same decency they expect. Even worse, they blame us for problems in society as reasons to denounce us and erase our existence.
     
  7. LullabyNY

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    I understand your problem but take a person like Elon Musk who was grew up with an abusive father AND queerphobic, a person like that is their fate!
    I was lucky that my mom didn't married my father, kicked him away and are four years I don't see him at all...he was abusive, he is nazist...if I would grow up with him I would had end like Elon Musk, that's my point.
    I just was so luck.

    Listen my father was a lot abusive, really, he ruined my childhood and I don't remember it...if I wouldn't be so strong now I would have many more problems (I had them during my childhood like being aggressive and not cleaning myself) and my mom wouldn't had kick him away probably she would be one of the many women killed. I was luck so yeah, I'm scarried by those type of men too tbh.
    I don't think is healthy how she does, neither my mom is so scare.
    But I can understand her.
     
    #7 LullabyNY, Sep 28, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2023
  8. Aspen

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    JKR isn't ignorant. She is actively toxic and she has three types of fans these days.

    1. People who genuinely don't know that she's transphobic. Usually people who are so far removed from the news and popular culture that they've never heard about it. I have a friend like this.
    2. Bigots who agree with her.
    3. People who want to believe that it's possible to separate an author from her work. They don't want to hate Harry Potter so they pretend that the books are separate from JKR's beliefs. This is how queer fans of hers tend to deal with the cognitive dissonance.

    It isn't fate for a person with shitty parents to also be shitty. It's the cycle of abuse and it can be broken. I was raised Catholic by a horribly homophobic and transphobic mother and by the time I was 18, I already knew everything she believed was wrong. My wife grew up with an abusive father and she didn't spend billions of dollars to single-handedly destroy a platform that many people relied on for community, news, and their livelihoods.
     
  9. mnguy

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    Not everyone with shitty family grows up to be shitty. Everyone has a choice.
     
  10. Chiroptera

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    Aren't all bigots ignorants in some way?

    Anyhoo, I may grant some lenience towards some simple people who hadn't the opportunity to study and grow in life. That's not Rowling's case. She isn't a complete idiot and she could have reflected better about life and chosen a more peaceful and accepting path. She instead chose to attack innocents and actively support violence against them.

    This doesn't mean she isn't ignorant in some ways, but there's no excuse for that ignorance in her case. She isn't the poor old lady who never had the opportunity to talk to people different than her and learn. She chose not to learn.
     
  11. LullabyNY

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    I absolutely NOT excuse her nor Elon Musk, I'm saying we need to create a society where people learn to act polite and respect each others.
    I don't blam people if is society's fault.
     
  12. chicadeoro

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    I'm always amused when Rowling casually adds that she has 'trans friends' into her bigoted spiel about us.

    Really? I'd be fascinated to hear from one of these 'friends' and find out what they think.

    In a way she's in a fine tradition of authors of kids' books who turn out to have objectionable political views - Roald Dahl, Enid Blyton etc. One day she'll be seen as just as much of an anachronism as they are..

    Beth
     
    #12 chicadeoro, Sep 30, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2023
  13. Chiroptera

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    I almost completely agree. I don't blame common people, but I do blame people like Musk.

    Society is controlled by those in power. It's not an independent "entity" - it is made of people, but with some having more control than others. And that control includes propaganda of all kinds.
     
  14. Searching2022

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    Maybe but you seem to think the only bigoted and ignorant people are those who oppose your point of view.
    Do you think it’s possible that there is an intellectual person that disagrees with you?
    How di jk Rowling go from being the darling of progressive values to being a pariah? Did she suddenly become ignorant?
     
  15. chicadeoro

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    Sorry, I just have to pick you up on this. Where are all these 'men' who declare themselves female and compete in women's sports?

    There is a tiny percentage of trans women who would like to compete recreationally in their chosen sport as the gender they are. I am one of them. Or perhaps you regard me as a man?

    Your comment suggests you've been spending too much time immersing yourself in the right wing gutter press.

    Beth
     
  16. Ran

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    @Searching2022 if you really think transphobic people aren't a problem, then you need a serious wake up call. Being transphobic is something that can be overcomed, but being ignorant is a choice.
     
  17. Searching2022

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    There was recently a swimmer Leia Thomas who competed in women's swimming. Do you think that was fair?

    Circular logic. Anyone who disagrees with me is transphobic, so there no arguments are valid.
    What is JK Rowling saying, specifically that is 'transphobic' and explain what exactly constitutes that.
     
    #17 Searching2022, Oct 1, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2023
  18. Ran

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    I explained all of it already. You just don't want to listen.
     
  19. Danielle1

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    I’m guessing you are focusing on transgender women and ignoring transgender men in this debate.

    Sport is an inherently unfair competition. People with the best genetics always come out as the best. Transgender women if partaking in sport at a high level will also have these ‘best genetics’ to help them win. It’s something which helped them get there in the first place.

    A lot of the debate is centred around the males already being advantageous: greater average bone mass, greater muscle mass, etc which is generally attributed to testosterone hormones. However, trans women have this hormone suppressed with Oestrogen, progesterone and anti-androgens drugs which decreases this muscle and bone mass by variable amounts.

    Why do you bring up a singular althlete in Lia Thomas? It feels like you might be cherry-picking examples of transgender women competing in sport. How much can you attribute her success to being assigned male at birth? What if she had the unfair genetics I mentioned before?

    The reason why this opinion of opposing trans women in women’s sports is considered transphobic is because it of its consequences: trans women are either banned from sports (which makes them feel even more disconnected from society) or make them play in their assigned at births division (which also makes them more alienated from society). It brings trans women nothing but misery and pain if this happened, which is why it’s considered transphobic.

    Conclusion: just because someone is transgender doesn’t mean their success is because of their assigned at births gender. Sports isn’t that simple.
     
  20. JT1999

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    The sport thing is a really difficult one. I was a nationally competitive gymnast and I also was good enough where I could have probably started competing in distance running, weightlifting (which is in classes, I would probably drop ~1kg to get into the <50kg class) and kickboxing. Weightlifting & kickboxing I would be at a big disadvantage to someone who has ever had male levels of testosterone, whether that is a transwoman or just a woman who has at some point taken steroids, especially if taken while the body is still growing. Bone structure makes a big difference. I’ve held the pads for teenage lads who are similar size & weight to me (5’5”, 51kg / 8 stone) and the power some of them have is unreal. They might have as much explosive power as a similarly trained woman at 5ft 9”, 70kg / 11 stone does. Going on women’s hormones or even a full surgical transition doesn’t remove all the strength advantages of going through male puberty.

    It doesn’t matter what you do though, there is always going to be unfairness. If you let transwomen compete, it’s unfair to the natural born women in some sports. If you don’t let transwomen compete, it’s unfair on them and it’s kinda like denying what they are. Bad situation all round, really.
     
    #20 JT1999, Oct 1, 2023
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2023