Cultural appropriation

I disagree. If your culture did something horrible to the other culture you want to take things from, just do not do it in public. It's just that simple.

If you have no historial feuds with the other culture you like so much you can negociante it and ask them if you can participate. Otherwise don't even try it. Or do it when you are alone

 

I can see where some people are coming from with this. While I agree that you shouldn't attempt doing something from another culture that is sacred without express permission to do so or do something culturally insensitive (like wear one of those cheep halloween costumes that are just mockeries of other cultures), there comes a point where it stops being cultural appropriation and can turn into appreciation. In the best kind of world, people would just educate themselves on what is or isn't bad for somebody to do who comes from outside the culture it originated from but realistically, that'll never happen.
As a response to edy about not doing something from a culture that has had feuds historically with your own, that really depends on the context. For example, like somebody else kind of brought up earlier, Japan has no qualms with foreigners participating in most things traditional to their culture like wearing Kimono or participating in traditional tea ceremonies despite having really heavy feuds with outside countries in the past. If all else fails, you could ask someone native to the culture kindly or look it up online to try and get a general consensus on what is or isn't appropriate.

 

Who exactly is the cultural appropriation police we need to ask nicely if we can borrow from their culture?

 

How many black friends do I need to have so I can wear dreadlocks?

 

And people wonder why tribes like the Hopi are so secretive and their ceremonies, legends, ruins, etc. off limits to outsiders. Too many new age hippies were trying to get "spiritual" and mocking their culture (plus, many "pagan" traditions were outlawed by the Spaniards).

It's sort of how many Americans have their own shows, books, and restaurants, specializing in Mexican cuisine (often changing so much that it barely resembles the original). Keep in mind that they have success in a way that wouldn't be possible for a member of the source culture.

 

That is not an answer to the question at all. If there is nobody we should ask, then we are free to do what we want.

Does anyone know of the YouTuber Social Repose? He wears a giant, non-traditional headdress and gets a lot of hate for it. Personally, as a Native American, I think it's fucking awesome. Sorry, but he doesn't need to ask permission to wear something from their culture OR put his own spin on it, especially not in the US. I am very much glad that the people who seem to take this stuff seriously are in the minority. Yes, you shouldn't totally disrespect a culture, but nobody "owns" a culture, so anyone is free to adopt parts or all of it, put their own spin on it, and strut it around as much as they want. If I want to dress as a geisha for Halloween, I'm fine doing so as long as I am not purposefully making a mockery of that artform.

 

To me, messing with Native American culture is a big NO NO!

 

I think it is wrong and should be avoided. It's kind of objectifying in my opinion, and it only serves to further dehumanizing stereotype pictures people get in their head when they think about people of a certain culture. For many less culturally diverse areas, I feel, it has a worse effect because when kids grow up in a small town, it could be that their only knowledge of what, say, a Chinese woman is like is someone wearing a stereotypical, maybe inaccurate version of a traditional Chinese dress who is sexualized and dainty. So minimizing peoples' exposure to such things by not encouraging or buying into them is worth it. Is it completely avoidable? Probably not, but at least making people more aware of what cultural appropriation is so they're not just letting themselves be conditioned by it is a good way to help.

 

I think it's pretty relative as you have to define what exactly you mean by "cultural appropriation". In my opinion, I don't see why non-black people shouldn't be allowed to wear braids or dreadlocks - it's your hair after all - however, that's on a completely different level to all the Native American Halloween costumes you see (that is inappropriate). There's a line between admiring other cultures and making fun of them, and an Asian girl wearing braids is hardly harmful to black people.

But I think that in a lot of instances, discouraging the sharing of cultures recalls the ideals of segregation. If you say things like "white people shouldn't rap because black people invented that style of music" or "you shouldn't have dream-catchers unless you're Native American" then I honestly think you're enforcing segregation ideals in that every culture needs to be completely separate and not interact/cross over. However, if you're genuinely mocking other cultures, fetishising them and passing their stuff of as your own (like that one Avril Lavigne video. You know the one) then that's wrong because you're actively dehumanising them.

 

It seems like the general consensus here is "Cultural appropriation is not a thing. Or it sort of is, but I don't know exactly when it is". I'm not blaming anyone for the ambiguity; it is an ambiguous topic with no one right answer.


This thread should have been more relevant the past couple of days, seeing as Halloween is sometimes "appropriation central". There is currently a debate on this topic on another forum I frequent with the opposite result (most people there saying cultural appropriation is a thing and that it's bad). The example given was dread-locks, with most users claiming that dread-locks on white people is racist.

It's interesting, though, because dread-locks have been associated with hippies for a while and I believe the first person I ever saw with this particular hideous hairstyle was white. Is it a time thing, then? Does something have to have been appropriated by another culture long enough in order for it to now be "okay"? Or it is just a matter of approval from the other culture? If "most Japanese people" (how you would quantify that, I'm not sure) say it's okay for Westerners to wear kimonos, is that "okay" now?

A user pointed out in the other forum's thread that they saw someone dressed up as "a Mexican" for Halloween. Now, as "a Mexican" myself, would I find that offensive? Are we talking someone in a sombrero and a fake mustache? Or is it something designed to be more offensive? It's possible I might find it funny if I didn't think it had any malicious intent behind it. Can I dress up as a white person? Powder my face, put on a blond wig, drink wine and coffee and kiss my dog on the mouth in my SUV? Do white people own SUVs as a cultural item?

 

I am also Mexican and I don't like when others dress up as Mexican, not because I consider it racist or insensitive but because I think it's hypocritical.

 

You realize that I have to type in English because those are the forum's rules, right?

 

But if it bothered you that much, wouldn't you refuse to even make an account here? Also, how do you feel about Japan? Most of the "culture" in Japan doesn't actually originate from Japan...

 

Okay, what? What about European food? Should I care if the gyros here are no where near as good as the gyros in Greece? Sometimes, sharing food in cultures can end up with really good results. You think Mexican cuisine started off in Mexico? A lot of it has roots from Spain. In fact, many Latin American countries are a great example of what happens when two cultures are allowed to mix (Spanish and Native American). Granted, it has bloody roots, but it's still the result of cultures colliding nonetheless.


If people want to be protective of their culture, fine. They can follow their own culture how they see fit. Nobody will stop them. But they can't tell people what they can and cannot do, believe, and make.

 

Hrm, tacos and tequila certainly don't have their roots in Europe (in fact, many Spaniards get annoyed when people ask them about it)... their chorizos aren't as "spicy" and cuisine tend to feature more olive oil. And because of America's influence, people think Tex-Mex cuisine, like nachos and burritos, are Mexican, and this can lead to misunderstandings when visiting Mexico and complaining about the lack of... whatever.

I'd say most Americans are clueless when it comes to indigenous cuisine, even if they're consuming it. Of course when 95% of the native population is wiped out, and their continent settled by wave after wave of immigrants, that's going to affect perceptions. Not only that, but many elders are worried about the younger generations losing touch with their past.

The last time I checked, Greeks weren't endangered of being displaced, despite what some white nationalist sites might say about Islamic immigrants. I'm certainly not opening a restaurant selling Gyros and insinuating that I invented them! If anything, I'd be hesitant about making money from selling a "foreign" product, unless their source community benefits from it somehow.

 

I know it's not completely Spaniard. I'm sure it's even mostly Native. However, are you going to say that it has complete Native roots? This statement isn't even limited to just food. I'm referring to every aspect of Latin American culture.

You say that like you know your Greek history. My great grandparents (yes, all my great grandparents) had to escape the Greek Genocide (alongside the Armenian and Assyrian Genocides) after the Ottoman Empire was systematically killing ethnic Christian minorities in their historic homeland. They had to move to the mainland of Greece, and the Pontic Greek culture assimilated into Greece. And you know what? I don't expect anyone who's not Greek to know how to identify Pontic Greek culture. I've learned some Pontic Greek dancing, and I've dressed in traditional Pontic Greek clothes before. If someone else was to dress like that, sure I might not like it, but I wouldn't stop them because it's not my business. Contrary to your belief, it's not just white Christians that have history of oppressing and killing.

 

^ When I see non-Mexicans dressed in traditional Mexican clothing (it is rare, mind you, but I have seen it), I usually think it's cool--it immediately elicits a positive response from me because it shows that people from outside the Mexican culture are interested in it. If they were doing it to mock it or if what they were doing was completely based on unfavorable stereotypes, that would be a different matter, but I don't think "Oh, those pesky appropriators!" when I see it. I like seeing people learn about other cultures and in some cases, emulate those cultures that they have learned about and appreciate.

That's of course just my personal opinion and I would not expect every Mexican or Mexican American to feel the same. But unless cultural items are "appropriated" in a mocking or inaccurate manner, then it typically does not bother me. It becomes an issue when you begin to see other cultures as caricatures and stereotypes from which you can pick and choose items you like--before you partake in another culture's practices, it's probably best to understand those practices first.

 

When did I say it was just white Christians... the fact remains that Europeans took colonization to new heights, no doubt thanks to modern technology and old world diseases. No other group had done such a thing to virtually every continent, and I'm not even going to mention the two world wars. Of course, it was more recent than say, the Romans, Arabs, or Mongols, not to mention there's a more personal stake in it, for me.

Would you say Gazpacho and Minestrone are native dishes, simply for using tomato sauce? They would still exist without it, even if the form is slightly different. Regarding culture, some are more influenced by European, African, or even Asian, and of course, it varies by country to country, or even region! Maize consumption goes back thousands of years, and European settlers might not have survived had they not had access.

11 million is the population of Greece, and I'm sure there are many more in the diaspora. Was there ever a universal effort to wipe Greeks, as a people, everywhere, off the map? Something like 95% of the indigenous population disappeared from 1492 to modern times. The largest numbers are in Latin America, and most face poverty, discrimination, and are virtual outsiders where their ancestors lived for as long as they know. Their is a real fight for survival, and if you're following the news in North Dakota, it's not going so well.

Some of this was accidental, yes, but also used as a weapon.