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Churches and gay rights

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Ruby Dragon, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. Donteatthesushi

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    I'm trying to be courteous but if you persist i will cease to reply to your childish personal attacks and have conversations with more mature adults. trolling and personal attacks are childish and poor tactics when discussing matters. That is all, i'm not influencing you or trying to sway you but rather i will reply when you have something sensible to say, however if you persist using personal attacks i will ignore you completely and continue my discussion with those more mature.


    The first part of this i'm ignoring since it seems more of a further trolling attempt. An ideal world between the church and LGBT is one where both leave the other alone, the church can chose to ignore or accept LGBT or allow and refuse them marriage. it's up to them to decide. The LGBT stay out of the way of the church they don't have to marry you if they don't want to or if they do they can and christian bakers don't have to bake a cake that supports gay right which they don't believe in fearing losing their livelihood or more. Both stay out of the others way.

    ---------- Post added 23rd Oct 2015 at 10:35 PM ----------

    When i said that i meant why should anyone change what i believe in, discussing beliefs is one thing but why should anyone change what i believe in, if i think homosexuality is wrong and an abomination from God. Why should i have to fear reprisal for my beliefs (in my view). Why should i have someone tell me you can't hold that view because it's wrong not to believe in gay right or support the LGBT community or have any belief different from fill in the blanks. i don't like that i think Christians who don't believe in gay right or anyone who doesn't should be allowed to. It's becoming Orwellian when people aren't allowed to have their beliefs. Everything i said about the conservatives, liberals and LGBT community are of my opinion. I will not change it nor will i prostitute what i believe because no one else like it. No matter how unpopular it may be. I will always be opposed to the LGBT community and activism by the LGBT community as i am opposed to the right wing and christian activists.

    ---------- Post added 23rd Oct 2015 at 10:38 PM ----------

    I despise both sides and i'm not afraid to show it nor will i change what i believe in for the sake of acceptability. The thought police can sue me.
     
    #21 Donteatthesushi, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  2. Aussie792

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    It's a pretty fair point. Why is it you are permitted to encourage others to change their minds so that they agree with you that nobody should try to do so?

    It's a quibble about words when you say you're trying to sway rather than influence. All present are trying to convince others, including you.

    You have been consistently inflammatory in this thread and others. Please be less disrespectful. Kaiser is wryly teasing you about an inconsistency she sees because you keep ignoring it. You're flat-out calling her immature without bothering to respond to her point.

    But "live and let live" simply doesn't allow for arbitrating disputing claims:

    Whose lobbying is to be considered more favourably by governments?

    How do anti-discrimination ordinances apply to the non-religious branches of religious organisations, such as charity or business groups owned by or affiliated with a church?

    When people who aren't rational, adult actors are affected, how do we protect them? For example, in religious schools, how do we value the right of children to freedom of expression and mental health if we also permit a religious school's ability to have policies and teachings that go against LGBTQI students and the children of LGBTQI people?

    How do we weigh up spousal rights to hospital visits against a religious-owned hospital or hospital staff who have the right to refuse to engage with LGBTQI people?

    Because if you believe something that causes direct harm to others, then there is a pretty big incentive for those affected by that opinion or those inclined towards a more liberal society to try to convince you otherwise.

    And when it comes to prostituting your beliefs, you have such a firm conviction that you are being attacked and that you are always right. Your opinions are unpopular here because you justify them very poorly; you are not being criticised by the blind masses. Nobody is asking you to throw away your entire mindset to the next person who offers an opinion. You're just expected to engage with others in good faith and actually listen to what they have to say.

    Why is LGBTQI activism bad? Even if I were to accept that things like being forced to bake a cake are examples of injustice, why should that even register with me when I compare it to murders of trans people or denying access to marriage for same-sex couples?

    Do you espouse any particular philosophy that could be of value to the discussion? Or do you merely oppose absolutely everything?

    I would just like to remind you you aren't an impartial bystander; each contributor is a different side of the discussion unto themselves and no matter how incoherent your views are, they still form a subjective opinion as much as others' views do.
     
    #22 Aussie792, Oct 24, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  3. Donteatthesushi

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    I'm not influencing anyone i'm merely discussing that (in my view) no one is better than the other, the LGBT community and activists are no saints either, nor the christian activists who oppose them. I didn't realize Kaiser was teasing, i thought he/she was trolling and making personal insults than discussing ideals. i'm fine with someone taking apart beliefs etc but i'm not ok with trolling (a sign of immaturity in my book and hence why i chose to ignore what Kaiser said) and personal attacks (which is what i thought he/she was doing. That said i guess that can be put down to a misunderstanding. Kaiser was the one who implied i was trying to sway others or influence them. i was just stating what i believed in from my view and was discussing that.

    That's a tricky one and i'll think it over and get back to you on that one.

    Firstly let me ask what does the I in LGBTQI stand for? I only know it as LGBT, LGBTQ or LGBT+. Could you please explain further on the adult actors aspect of your discussion and elaborate what you mean? I'd be for letting religious schools teach what they believe in. having gone to a religious school myself but coming out pretty much fine forming my own beliefs and choosing what i believe in for myself i have mixed feelings about religious schools. Just as i have mixed feelings about regular schools (both state run and private schools). Most of what i learned and based what i believe in is formed myself from experiences, reading and my own though process. While i do believe a religious school should be allowed to teach what they believe in i don't believe in forcing students to believe in it. The objective of a school is to tech children. In my school before i used to opt out (sort of) going to mass before classes started (albeit by sneaking out or loitering till it was over). I wouldn't force kids who didn't want to go to mass to go. I wouldn't force them to teach evolution either.

    I dealt with this once when my boyfriend got injured kayaking. We went to this religious hospital. I waited for him to be discharged. I would hate for someone to come to me and ask me to change what i believe in for them, i would hate others to change what they believe in for me. The LGBT community and activists always talk about christians forcing their beliefs or opinions on them, you want them not to but you mustn't too, otherwise you're no better than them. It's wrong to ask people to be tolerant of us while being intolerant of them.



    I'm not opposed to someone having an opinion, only problem is when it resorts to physical violence, otherwise someone saying i don't believe in gay rights or i believe in God who says that gays are evil i'm fine with and people should learn to ignore it if it bothers them. Someone calls you something do you suddenly burst into tears or react in anger? No because that would be silly to react to someone calling you some word.

    I do listen to what they have to say, then i discuss it. They're welcome to refute in turn. I'm open to people discussing with me. I like people challenging what i believe it's nice discussing things. Unfortunately some people fear that refuting or having an opposing view that challenges what they believe. Salman Rushdie was right about this new generation being a culture of offendedness. People now don't like someone refuting what they believe in, having an opposing view is terrifying. The slang term "hugbox" is the term i'm looking for. We have become a culture of hugboxes. Everyone is so scared of someone having an opposing view to the point of imposing the thought police. This is what i see a lot in the LGBT activism. Anyone who doesn't agree must be made to or lose your job, this is one of the points i'm making. the Orwellian nightmare of LGBT activists.

    Murdering trans people or same sex couples is terrible and should never happen, yes but so is losing your home and livelihood just for having a different opinion from the acceptable. It's still horrible and worse it's hypocritical to do so. in doing so you are no better than the right wing. The LGBT community do this too. We love to say "tolerance" and "acceptance" except you have a different view then the one we have. not that they are paragons of virtue themselves. Same goes for the activists

    Stugeon's law. The golden dancer from Inherit the Wind (while yes applies to creationism in the movie) holds truth about any system of belief. All ideals look pretty and shiny on the surface, i don't trust it. I like to dig when i hear someone talk about some pretty shiny idea to find the gritty dirt hidden underneath. A comforting lie is still a lie. It's my nature, call me a cynic or skeptic i just don't trust anything shiny.

    Never said i wasn't in fact i even stated it was all from my point of view and is all subjective. Anything that isn't empirically supported by fact and irrefutable proof is subjective. And while i am willing to make exceptions to include those facts into my beliefs i know beliefs themselves are subjective

    I'm considering leaving EC. I came on hoping to find help and a community that is more neutral or a more diverse group. I must say, i am disappointed with how it turned out to be. I don't like being lumped into the LGBT community because i'm gay or feel like i have to be a part of it or support LGBT rights or activism for LGBT causes. I've never been that kind of person. I expected EC to be more balanced but i found it too dominated by liberals, activists and left wingers.

    ---------- Post added 24th Oct 2015 at 12:36 AM ----------

    One or two on here with similar beliefs to mine, but i guess we don't count. Our views are "wrong" and shouldn't be heard. This group is too homogenized with their ideals and people get too offended from any opposing opinion than theirs.
     
    #23 Donteatthesushi, Oct 24, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  4. Zen fix

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    Nice try but nobody buys it. Disagreeing with someone is not trolling or attacking. Kaiser simply did a nice job of yanking the rug completely out from under your stance on this. I'm sure it stung but you if you think it was a personal attack it is because you chose to take it that way.

    You can't get any more thought policing than "don't say your opposing thoughts and ideas to other people and don't try to influence them." Which is what your statements have boiled down to. I don't want to insult you, I really truly mean that, but I am kind of wondering if you are just messing with us because your conflicting messages are kind of funny.
     
  5. Jalo

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    Reading this discussion has been very interesting, with the differing points of view. To Donteatthesushi, the chances of you finding a neutral forum are quite slim. Most LGBTs have liberal/democratic views, because these views are what brought us justice and equality in today's world. The only person I can recall who is gay and had non-liberal views was a conservative Christian. There will hardly be a fine line in-between the two. If you do not like the liberal views of EC, then good luck finding any other forum without them.
     
  6. Donteatthesushi

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    Kaiser made remarks that seemed to me were verging on the personal attack rather than rebutting what i was saying, than on what i was saying.
    Justice and equality, you lot are as oppressive as the right wing are, if given power you showed you're more than willing to silence any opposing arguments that threaten what you believe in with threats and by despicable means, this is exactly what i meant by LGBT groups being hypocrites. Something too good to be true, always is. LGBT groups are such hypocrites, you want everyone to see the good side but mention racism, queerphobia and transphobia existing inside the LGBT community and you're automatically not one of us and must be censored. I seen your true colors. if only the rest of the world could. The LGBT community needs to quit preaching about equality, tolerance and inclusiveness since it practices none of those things in real life. I have to call massive BS on anything the LGBT community and their politically active branches do. You love to talk about right wing christians forcing their beliefs on you, you're just as bad and willing to do the same. The sad thing is what total hypocrites the LGBT community is while doing it, playing the victim "oh poor us, we're being oppressed". Those didn't bring you anything lobbying liberal parties got you where you are, if this is the LGBT community, no thanks, you can keep it. I want no part of it. You seem to be implying that if you're not liberal then you're a conservative christian, because no one could ever be gay and christian or *gasp* a conservative unless they're in denial right?
     
    #26 Donteatthesushi, Oct 24, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  7. Donteatthesushi

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    I've also seen how LGBT activists love to milk incidents, anything to further the cause right? Totally justifiable, we're not horrible people for doing that, the opposition is.
     
    #27 Donteatthesushi, Oct 24, 2015
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  8. Kaiser

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    Because that's how you're coming off, and I knew that would be the most effective way of getting your attention. I'd say my point was a success, if you realize how ridiculous I was sounding before, now.

    THIS AIN'T A PERSONAL ATTACK, BTW
    If you really want to see that in the community -- by the way, EC is only a part of that community, it isn't the ambassador of the LGBT community -- look around this forum. It's there, if you want to find it. In fact, we've had those types of discussions before, multiple times. It is acknowledged.

    If you put as much effort into looking for the good or the bigger picture, as you did the bad or the immediate picture, you might actually have an argument. Because as it stands right now, you're making exceptions for you -- and what you think, say, and believe -- that you don't make for anybody else.

    That, in my opinion, places you in the same camp as the extremists you dislike. Therefore, nothing much is going to be done here. You won't budge on your position, which is detrimental to any kind of conversation, not because of your stances themselves, but because you tie yourself to the stance of not being involved with anybody or anything else but your own selective little world. You lose your identity if you "lose", or are challenged for, that identity.

    I'm not trying to win an argument, I'm trying to help you explain yours. But you keep latching onto things that shouldn't matter -- I reference something you say, for example, suddenly, I'm making a personal attack. Your logic here is bizarre, because anything that makes mention of your posts can be presented as a personal attack. It's a weak tactic that, ironically, the religious right and the LGBT militants use.

    And before you even say it, let me stop you:

    Everything I've brought up isn't to convince you, i.e. win. I can't do that, because you won't let it happen (nor do I genuinely expect you to, that's your call):

    You're the guy who takes no sides, has an idiosyncratic perception of what is best and worst, and is bound to that. You're projecting your own jaded world view onto others, implying that if they don't follow your line of thinking, that they're terrible people, filled with hypocrisy and indoctrination -- things you, yourself, are displaying with the points and responses you've given.

    You claim not to let things around you influence you, but let us look at your behavior here. If the world says one thing, you'll say another. If the world does one thing, you'll also do another. When the world cracks it's societal whip, you ironically dance. You aren't providing any solutions, you're complaining basically.

    What do you propose be done about this? Bitching isn't going to fix these types of social structures, so tell us some possible solutions.

    And before you jump onto this, let me get ahead of you:

    None of this is a personal attack. It is all observations from what you have said, responded to, cited, and done. You enjoy shooting down others for their opinions, but I've yet to see you provide that same vulnerability as them.
     
    #28 Kaiser, Oct 24, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  9. Aussie792

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    The dry language of legal equality and social/political obligations is much harder to sell to the general public than a story.

    That's not a great sin of LGBT activists. It's merely reflective of the way humans prefer narratives to other forms of communication. It humanises LGBT issues and shows the tangible outcomes of discrimination and the successes of social acceptance.

    It's also important to note that making use of incidents in court is actually something of a requirement; you can't easily challenge in court an old law that has long been taken for granted just for the sake of it, but you can challenge the law when it causes you an actual harm through a particular incident. If making use of a legal system that allows for challenges to certain laws or behaviours is 'milking', then I honestly don't know what you want from activists. Would quiet chats by the fireside or bemoaning inequality over coffee without actually coming up with a solution be preferable to you?

    Call it milking all you like, but what you repeatedly dispute is ultimately finicky usage of language, over which it's becoming clear you have a relatively poor command, rather than actually telling us why your ideas are better and achieve better outcomes for society and the individual.
     
    #29 Aussie792, Oct 24, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2015
  10. Jalo

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    What did I ever say about that? I said the only gay conservative I knew was also religious. He, in fact, tried to pull the "gay" out of him simply for his God. He wasn't denying that he was gay- he knew very well that he was. His God was more important to him, however. Do I find it ridiculous, personally? Yes. Do I disrespect his faith? No. I also said these exact words:
    I'm not saying every single person is a liberal or conservative, but many people do feel strongly about either side, LGBTs falling into the liberal side, simply because conservative people have more traditional views and LGBTs aren't exactly "traditional". That is why I stated it would be more difficult to find a forum with neutral views.