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Churches and gay rights

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Ruby Dragon, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. Ruby Dragon

    Ruby Dragon Well-Known Member

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    My mom and sister were disgusted to find that a certain church has accepted gays and lesbians, and anyone else with same-sex attractions, into their congregation, and are open to same-sex marriages. My sister went on to say that homosexuality is wrong. She said, "If God created man and woman for the intent that they reproduce, then how can it be natural and right for two men or two women to be together? They can't reproduce without someone of the opposite sex."

    I was astounded by their ignorance and outright, shameless homophobia. They don't think that it may offend me, since I also have same-sex attractions. I wish they could snap out of their closed-minded homophobic thought processes, and just accept that some men love men, and some women love women. My life would be so much simpler then.

    Well, the church we go to, is going to have a meeting about homosexuality, and based upon that, will decide if they will allow homosexuals into the church, and support same-sex marriages. I'm crossing my fingers for a positive result, but only time will tell. I think the overall consensus will be split 50-50. The older, closed-minded people will vote no, and the younger, open-minded people might vote yes (Hopefully). I don't know what to say. I guess only time will tell..... :shrug:
     
  2. Distant Echo

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    So they think they don't have homosexuals in there already?
     
  3. Ruby Dragon

    Ruby Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Lol, good point. It's sad actually. Sad that we have to hide who we are for the sake of not upsetting or offending anyone. Pffft :rolle:
     
  4. iced espresso

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    I'm closeted because my Christian community and family have the same views as your sis and mom. It's pretty sad actually. But I am hoping it all works out well for you!
     
  5. camvlodvnvm

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    Take courage and remember that when people say that "God says this" what they really mean is "I say this and I'm using God to prove my argument!". I'm a theologian and I know that "God says this" arguments are fallacies, as well as somewhat blasphemous :slight_smile:

    I often find Byron Katie very helpful with things like this, she has a very "live and let live" approach to life - there's a wonderful video called "Being Gay is Unnatural—Is It True?" by her on YouTube which deals a little with family relationships and religion. I think she would say that you shouldn't expect people to change so easily - after all, your mom and sister must feel pretty strongly about their belief system, perhaps just as strongly as you feel about your sexuality. Do you really expect them to give it up so easily? Do you think you could give up your identity so easily? If you want to convince them, I would say let them come to you. Be open and loving, and they will come to you :slight_smile:
     
  6. guitar

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    You really might want to have your mom and sister read the very short book "Dear God" by John Goode. Actually, I encourage everyone on this site to read it if you're interested in what the church actually says on homosexuality. It's a funny 15 pages written in a conversational style.

    Also, good on this church for acting Christ-like and loving everyone.

    If being gay truly made you an abomination and wicked in the eyes of god, consider this: Some statistics put homosexuality as high as 10% - and let's use this number for simplicity's sake. That means 700 million people (or 7 billion) are gay. That's a massive quality control problem for God. :grin:
     
  7. Donteatthesushi

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    I dislike people who force their beliefs on others. This goes for both the church and the LGBT+ community. If a church doesn't want LGBT+people there or want to marry them they shouldn't be forced to, neither should the church be forcing their beliefs on LGBT+ people either. Believe what you want as long as no one harms the other (by that i mean physically harm or threaten another person with physical harm). I hate the idea that someone would tell me what i should or shouldn't believe in, be they the church telling me what i believe in is wrong and i'm going to hell or the LGBT community who thinks my beliefs are wrong. It's my beliefs and i'll believe what i want and make up my own mind about what i chose to follow, who are you to say who's beliefs are right or wrong?
     
    #7 Donteatthesushi, Oct 21, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2015
  8. Ruby Dragon

    Ruby Dragon Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty pleased with myself. My cousin and mom started talking about the subject of gays and churches and my mom said, "I think there are gays because they were hurt by someone of the opposite sex" I couldn't keep quiet again so I stood up for gays and said that being gay is not a choice. My mom kept quiet and the topic was changed. What else was I supposed to do? Lol. Just wanted to share
     
  9. Donteatthesushi

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    You know you can't change what she believes nor should you try to, you wouldn't like me forcing you to change what you believe in or forcing my opinion on you, so neither should you. Neither should she. If you get pissed off walk away. I would hate someone trying to force their beliefs on me or forcing me to change what i believe in. In doing so you're no better than her or the right wing anti-gay nutjobs, hypocrisy is what it is.
     
  10. PatrickUK

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    I'm not sure I entirely agree with you. I don't think there is anything wrong with trying to persuade someone to take a different view and even within the different denominations of Christianity, theological 'arguments' about human sexuality regularly take place. It may be that the power of your argument is insufficient to change another persons mind, but there is no harm in at least trying.

    I agree that you shouldn't harangue people with your views, but I don't agree that you shouldn't even try persuasion. Debate, discussion and reasonable argument is part and parcel of life - it's fundamental to democratic government. We shouldn't shy away from it.
     
  11. Donteatthesushi

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    The question here is where is the line between haranguing someone with what you believe in and debating, I've seen it going too far on both sides where it went into full harassment. See the problem is people don't know when to stop,especially people who have some form of belief or ideal. The problem lies in where the line is and how far is too far. This applies to both the right wing conservative Christians and LBGT activists.

    I respectfully disagree with you on the debating thing, i've always been pro letting everyone figuring out stuff for themselves and making their own decisions without having one view or the other being pushed on them. I have always disliked anyone who pushes a view on others and again, this applies to both sides. Debating etc tend to sway people too much in one direction or the other as a goal. I have no problems with people having discussions on it as long as they're not meant to sway opinion but simply inform. What i actually meant though in the first part of my comment is that his mother sounds a lot like mine, a hardcore christian and that will not change. You cannot change this kind of person's views since it's ingrained heavily into them and it isn't worth the pain and effort to try. Nor should he.
     
    #11 Donteatthesushi, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  12. Zen fix

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    Good for you for speaking up against this ignorant BS you were absolutely right to say something.

    ---------- Post added 23rd Oct 2015 at 02:59 PM ----------

    Always stoked to see another Californian on here. Unfortunately you are way off base.
     
  13. PerditionRawr

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    Mm, I do believe that people should be allowed to formulate their own views and opinions, but they should do so from correct information.

    To share a bit of my own experience, my father works in the ministry as a Reform Christian (think... fundamentalist without all of the chauvinism). Even though I'm not out to him, or the rest of my family, I feel comfortable discussing LGBTish issues with him because he's taken the time to educate himself, at least peripherally. Even though he doesn't agree with gay marriage and that homosexuality is a sin, he at least recognizes that it is genetic, so people should be free to 'practice it' and it shouldn't be illegal. So, yay for that incredibly low bar?

    I'm not a Christian anymore (and not exactly out about that either :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:) and my sexuality was one of the factors that distanced me from that, but something that helped me was the Tim Keller quote "being straight doesn't mean you'll go to heaven". I dunno. People seem to use the Church as an excuse to conflate homophobia and religious values. It's kind of sad that seeing a slightly more rational approach makes me so happy.
     
  14. Donteatthesushi

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    They should be allowed to form their opinions for themselves, if all opinion was formed on fact then gay rights wouldn't be passed by lack of proof (no proof it's genetic yet or what causes it yet), jury's not yet out on what causes homosexuality. So LGBT groups views and beliefs are no more valid than Christians when it comes to being BASED ON FACT. Actually, almost all arguments for and against LGBT rights are based on opinion without scientific basis and mostly ideological masturbation disguised as dogmatic rhetoric masking itself as rationality (from the LGBT groups point of view), not to say the Christians who believe the word of god is absolute and truthful are any more factual than functioning loonies in a mental asylum claiming the invisible, imaginary best friend told them so.
     
    #14 Donteatthesushi, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  15. Kaiser

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    Your argument becomes shaky when you consider that, at one time, it was opinion-backed "facts" that held science and cultures back. It took a defiant and even, at times, forceful set of actions to propel them forward. Because if we just 'let folks figure things out for themselves', with no outside influence, you'd be dead.

    You're not a Christian, and you're gay. The very things you're complaining about, ironically, are what saves your ass today.

    Just something to think about it...
     
  16. Donteatthesushi

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    I'm not a christian, that is true (i have no love for them), i was at one point, i'm not an atheist not a agnostic, nor do i believe in reincarnation. What that makes me? I don't know. Me being gay and not being christian have nothing to do with anything and doesn't build a case for me to be pro-LGBT. I don't change sides on empathy. That being aside.

    Opinion-backed "fact" like we're born gay (no proof), like it's genetic (still no proof) and the list goes on and on and on. Face it the LGBT groups arguments are all based on those opinion-based "facts" and not on empirical scientific evidence, whether it will or will not is yet to be seen. I'll believe it when i see it. People must be allowed to form their own opinion. While i don't trust them to get it right, they must be allowed to. The defiant and forceful acts you talk about sound like the words of every tyrant in history who wanted to force their ideals on everyone else, that is exactly what i despise. if that's what you believe count me out.

    ---------- Post added 23rd Oct 2015 at 06:54 PM ----------

    This is true of both sides giving hope and building arguments based purely on speculation and rhetoric. When i see some BS i feel the urge to tear it down, no matter what side it comes from, left, right center. BS is BS and needs to be pointed out on both sides. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEgo6OxqE-Q
     
    #16 Donteatthesushi, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  17. Kaiser

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    That wasn't my intention. You seem to assume I'm making a pro-LGBT argument, when really, I'm just pointing out simple logic.

    I'm simply saying, if people didn't do the things you complain about, back then, you wouldn't have the right to complain about those things, today. It took folks defying the religious and cultural norms, because if they didn't, it's very likely things would not have changed.

    'Defiant' and 'forceful' are matters of perspective. I could say you are being defiant and forceful, by pushing your "neutral at all costs" approach. You seem to put down others if they think anything else, kind of like tyrants. It's interesting you mentioned that, because the language in which you speak comes off as very absolute and self-centered, two traits tyrants typically have.

    See, if you want to stand on that side of the lens, that's fine. But you can't claim to be middle of the road, when you attach yourself to your own perspective being right. If you were really as neutral as you come off as, you wouldn't be so invested in justifying what you say. You'd let it ride, let others decide to take it as it is.

    Now, you'll probably either shrug this off or go into deflective defense mode. I wouldn't be surprised if you attempted to use my own remarks on me. I'll tell you now, while I admire your dedication to being so spiteful, because it shows passion, you fail to realize that that spite... that misanthropy... is a prison. It limits what you can say and what you can believe, because your objective is to not come off as one side or the other. Your stance means more than your own freedom, and that is what eats away at you...

    But, hey, that's just my perspective, right?
    I need to learn how wrong or right I am on my own, right?
    Without anybody else telling, correcting, or influencing me, right?
     
    #17 Kaiser, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  18. Posthuman666

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    While its great more places of worship are accepting out LGBT+ people, it is unfortunate your family has such misplaced feelings. I really cant give better or more relevant advice than what was already given however.
     
  19. Donteatthesushi

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    I'm fine with people deciding for themselves as a whole if everyone or at least most people come to the same conclusion, that's fine. Let people vote for it or decide on it via voting or referendum or whatever. I'm not against people changing their minds, but i'm also not for people forcing others to accept what they believe in. I don't think churches should be forced to marry gay people, or christian bakeries should be forced to bake cakes that support what they don't believe in or that someone should lose their job or be ostracized for not believing in gay marriage. That's where (according to me) you crossed the line. If you support doing that you're no better than the people you fight. The LGBT activists do tend to cross the line many times going to extremes.

    I'm not going to reply to most this second part, since this is more of a personal attack than an actual intelligible reply to what i said earlier. I'm not forcing what i believe on anyone, i was discussing the flaws of both sides. I don't believe any side is any better than the other. Both (according to me) go to extremes and both are just as forceful with their ideals as the other. I never said i was middle-of the road. Nor do i claim i'm unbiased or any less full of it than the other. Everyone's full of BS. The rest of your reply is ineligible as an argument since it consists mostly of personal attacks than actual intelligible rebuttal. Please keep your replies pertinent to the discussion. I don't mind you attacking my beliefs themselves but no personal attacks. My beliefs, just by the way don't limit me any less than adhering to liberal or conservative, christian or atheistic beliefs. however i am willing to make exemptions for scientifically provable data. So if it ever gets proven that being gay is indeed genetic and an inborn trait i'll willingly accept it, till then it's speculative rhetoric based on dogmatic idealism.

    ---------- Post added 23rd Oct 2015 at 08:14 PM ----------

    Let's face facts LGBT activists have no less absolute empirical proof being gay is inborn or genetic than Christians have proof god exists and his word is real. So what we really have is two sides with their ideological masturbation, it's like two children who both think they're right with none showing proof they are. That's all it is clash of beliefs and ideals.
     
    #19 Donteatthesushi, Oct 23, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
  20. Kaiser

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    Are you trying to influence me on how to think? Tell me what to do and how to speak? I'll make up my own mind -- you have absolutely no say in how I treat, think, or speak of you!



    Now you get my point, I hope, and why I used you as a direct example as opposed to a general one:

    I'm incorporating your approach in my interactions with you. I'd say this does fit in with the topic, because I'm giving your perspective focus, which has generated and moved the conversation at times, although not for the reasons you may have preferred. It's up to you how you run with this opportunity; I'm kind of fascinated by your thought process, in an amused sort of way.

    So, let me ask you this question: what, in your opinion, is an ideal world? Particularly the relationships between the religious and the LGBT community?