Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by mellissa, Jul 3, 2021.
Do you mean that you too have tried methods to change? If so, may I ask what methods and how long? What denomination do you associate with, if at all?
PS: I love your profile picture, it is so adorable and makes me think of myself in the morning.
Nice to see you again. Sorry for my late response. I have been busy.
To answer some of your questions,
1) No I don't base my faith on just a few verses. Throughout the bible only heterosexual marriage is allowed. Not just in the new testament, but by Jesus himself.
2) Jesus tells us to follow the narrow path. Sadly, I feel that us LGBT Christians drawn the short end of the stick, because our sin is something that we never chose or had a say in. Nevertheless, Jesus said that we need to die to our flesh in order to follow him.
3) Jesus said that certain sins/demons can be removed with both prayer and fasting. That is what I base this technique on.
4) Trust me, if being a lesbian was okay, I would never put myself through this kind of torture. I'm doing this because I guess I have an overdeveloped fear of hell. But we are who we are I guess.
I hope this clarifies some stuff. I know that most people don't agree, but I feel that I need to do this.
So, the Bible doesn’t expressly say it’s ok to play basketball. Going by your logic, it must be a sin (an abomination really) to play basketball. Jesus didn’t talk about it. It must be bad. Jesus also didn’t say airplanes are ok. Must be quite bad. Totally goes against nature. Man was meant to walk.
I would also point out that the thing Jesus expressly trashed the Pharisees for was making up laws that weren't there, were impossible to follow, and then trying to shame and frighten people into trying to follow them. Which is exactly what your church (and you by extension on here) are doing with homosexuality. The Bible never talks about same sex relationships in a modern sense (with two loving, consenting adults of equal status). So, you just made up your own rules and decided if they're not followed the result is Hell. That's exactly what the Pharisees did. They decided God's laws weren't enough and just added their own.
Thank you ,,, I love to look at girls, yes I tried. I think I best alone. Or find a girl who likes Ass play.
I'm sorry to see you going down the same rabbit hole as before with all of this @mellissa and you really only picked out a few points from my last messages to respond to. It seems you still cannot appreciate the Bible from a more objective point of view and focus on the literal above all else. Once we treat the Bible as a continuous anthology and focus on the literal, we make an idol of scripture and hollow out our faith. The personal and relational aspect of our faith is lost in a mish-mash of words.
The following comment serves to demonstrate my point:
Can you explain this to me? Why do you think only heterosexual marriage is "allowed" throughout the Bible?
You snipped out a few things that Jesus said in your response to me, but failed to demonstrate the full picture. It's well known that Jesus used metaphor and spoke in parables to offer meaning and context, but you isolated ideas about the narrow way and need for fasting and prayer from the wider chapter and applied them (literally) to your own circumstances. Do you think that's wise or theologically sound?
The Bible is not a novel that we simply read, accept and apply to our lives at will. It requires patient discernment and study with a sound understanding of development and historical context. You can't simply lift Jesus' comments about fasting, prayer and following the narrow way from the page and say "this applies to me" without that level of discernment and reflection. I can tell from your posts in this thread that you are not doing that. You have accepted the idea that same sex attraction is sinful (it's not) and have chosen to go down a toxic path of correction and purging that will bring you harm. My frankness and directness with you is really out of concern for where you are heading with all of this.
I grew up in a conservative Christian environment, but I knew within a year or so (in middle school) I could not change my sexual orientation through prayer or other means. I learned to accept it and mostly decided avoiding sex with others was enough. I took over a dozen years to realize I wasn’t helping anyone bottling up my sexuality (seriously harming my mental health) and began the long process of coming out. I would strongly suggest experiencing new social environments outside of just your church.
The idea sexuality can be altered by dry fasting does not make sense in terms of physiology. Sexual orientation, like any behavior, is all a bunch of wiring in our brains (which for Christians would be divinely planned). The body responds to fasting by trying to conserve resources, and water especially is critical to safe organ function (kidney stones are one risk). None of this will selectively target sexual orientation or any other region of the brain: it just goes into survival mode, like what some prisoners experienced when they were so starved that they had no sexual drive.
Just to echo what others have said, you can't fix what isn't broken.
From a scientific point of view, there is no evidence that you can change your sexual orientation, although there is evidence that trying to do so may result in serious damage to your own psychological well being, as many of the so-called "conversion methods" are based on prejudice and abuse/self-abuse.
From a religious point of view, there are many organizations, churches and temples that understand the fact that being LGBT+ is normal, not a sin and nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, there are groups inside churches that are composed specifically by LGBT+ members. Unfortunately, there are organizations who preach that being LGBT+ is a sin, but I feel that these are becoming less and less common, as more people notice that this is simply absurd.
Like some organizations say, what would Jesus do? The world has children starving, people being subjected to psychological and physical abuse, widespread violence and wars making countless victims every day. If there is a God, I really doubt he is concerned about the fact that a man loves another man or a woman loves another woman. People who see this as evil really need to stop and check their own priorities and what they are spending their energy on - energy that could be used really helping another people and spreading good, instead of harassing people for being who they are.
But Christian therapy methods simply don't work *shrug* All they are able to give are anxiety and depression, even clinical. Nkt just with homksexuality, with anything. If you want to see a Christian piece of bollocks, I stumbled upon a book by Anthony de Mello in which he claims that you can overcome any psychiatric and psychological issue and disease if you just want to and... sorry, but doesn't take into account actual credivle evidence-based science that no, psychiatric diseases and other issues of that kind can't be cured by just wanting it, and moreover, it make people with these issues feel bad about themselflves, unnecessarily. In case of depression and anxiety it makes the conditions even worse than "untreated".
As someone said, Christian "therapy methods" are based on abuse. Not physical, but abuse. And sometimes physical abuse - locking children in a cupboard is abuse, and the idea of fasting is too to experience pain. I mean, maybe for some people who don't know what it's like, it's beneficial to experience intense pain at all, at least a few times in their life, in order to change perspective. However, as someone who has experienced a lot of pain, I see no benefit from it for more sensitive or less lucky individuals. Speaking of which, I think many Christians who claim to have changed sexual orientation, haven't changed, but they still are gay and force themselves and suffer with their choices, because devout Christians view experiencing pain and suffering as something valuable, more valuable than the fulfilment of the individual and more valuable than being fully functional. They think it's better to have clinical depression and not be able to care for what's important to you, for your job, for your family, and to adhere to some strict set of rules just to show obedience just for the sake of it than to be functional and be an individual being instead of a "part of a machine". Yes, "losing your ego" is also a thing in Christianity.
Hi, mellissa: I was busy and couldn't add something when this thread was more active. Please stop thinking you're broken or you're in a sinful state. Many religions, including yours, have moved away from that. If you need to be spiritually connected, I urge you to consider other churches - the same branch or a different area of Christianity. You don't necessarily need to go to MCC or a denomination like MCC, because there are now many mainstream congregations that are attuned to LGBT people. It may involve finding new friends and letting go of old ones. That has been one of the most painful processes in my life.
You've got a lot of strength to share your struggle. That means you have the strength to overcome it. I don't mean to change like you have described, but surround yourself with people who like you and love you for the unique individual that you are. That might mean less quantity but more quality as far as friends and close allies go. You will filter it all and find the right path.
Please, please stay away from those conversion groups. Their failure rate is extremely high. The blow they deal people in the way of trauma can last for a very long time, if not forever. Exodus failed. NARTH is weakening. Even a church group where sexuality is sort of neutral - like a big shrug - might be healthier for you mentally and spiritually than what you have now.
You can't undo your combination of genetics, temperament, and past life experiences. They shape us. Look at how you discuss so strongly what you feel and what you can't or don't seem to be able to feel. Do you think a program or taking steps like fasting can overturn something that is fairly deep? What is actual or perceived shame and guilt that they are aiming at you or that you seem to be interpreting that way is abuse, and no one deserves to be abused in any way.
You might have some really hypocritical and flawed heterosexuals in your faith and other faiths who get a pass. I firmly believe that a LGBT person who is a good person inside and toward others is light years ahead of the people in congregations everyone thinks is so great. Remember that we are in YOUR corner.
Its not get you anywhere except more stress I am Bi and thought about trying to pray my attraction to guys away but end the end wont change me.
Hello All.....Pray the gay away does not now and never has worked. If you are not a Christian, why would you think that praying to a God that you don't believe in would do any good? If you are a Christian, then you believe that God does not make mistakes. If that is so then you are as God meant you to be and thus there is no need to try to pray away something that God has ordained. This is based upon the fact that we do not choose our sexuality...it simply is a part of who we are no different than the color of our eyes. This is a scientific fact. If you choose not to believe the facts - it's your problem - but it is a fact none-the-less. Many uninformed Christians refuse to believe that sexuality is not a choice. I respond to that with the question; "When was it that you made the choice the be straight and not gay?" Of course they made no such choice...it was simply the way they were...just as those of us who discovered that we were not straight made no such choice, we simple discovered it as we matured. You can't pray to change the color of your eyes, neither can you pray to change your sexuality. No matter how hard they try a straight guy can not pray away the straight to become gay! Why should the reverse be true?
Funny you should say that. There’s a documentary coming out on Netflix tomorrow named “Pray Away” about this very topic. It talks about Exodus International and their “results” trying to do this.
"Because the Bible says so..." is one of the most frequently used arguments to undergird support for these supposed techniques, but is that really true? Does the Bible say so?
This academic research suggests otherwise and blows a hole in the arguments that fundamentalists have relied up for years to support the case for conversion therapy or prayer techniques. The list of authors includes some of the best theologians and Biblical scholars in the world right now. It's a long read, but worth it:
Reading this makes me feel so sad. Being gay or straight will not matter in the eyes of god, being a kind person who does good things on our planet is what makes us. I personally don’t believe in god really, I believe in Mother Earth, our planet. She would want us to accept who we are and be happy and kind. I see being part of the LGBTQ community as an amazing gift, and something to be embraced. I hope one day you will too Mellissa.
I see this conversation thread pop up a lot and it really disheartens me to read the subject, I can't bring myself to read the commen
This message disheartens me. Please how you've been brought up, the fact that you think being homosexual is wrong. It's not, try to change your beliefs. Human rights are for everyone not just the people who are straight and traditionally religious. There is nothing wrong in being homosexual, embrace it. Like others have said, and it's true it is not a sin. Believe what you want to believe but I believe that God or whatever the higher power is, I believe they accept everyone regardless of who they are. Beliefs, discrimination, prejudice, it does not come from the higher power. We were all brought to this world for a reason. I'm not quite sure what that reason is but that's not the point. The higher power loves and accepts us for who we are, all of us. Regardless of the things we may be shamed for. It is not the higher powers who created the hate that comes in this world .. and don't ask me where it comes from, I don't know...
This message that started the thread, it pains me to hear such words. Obviously you are entitled to your opinions and beliefs and I can't take them away from you but please just know...
It is NOT wrong or shameful to be homosexual.
You put it so well CharlieLuca
Hello All.....I watched the Netflix "Pray Away" yesterday. It very simply confirms that you can not now and never have been able to pray away the gay. The leaders of "Exodus International" - the largest "Reparative Therapy" organization in the U.S. have admitted that what they did only made life worse for those who they "helped". On top of that, many of those same leaders were gay themselves and finally admitted that nothing that Exodus did actually caused them to be straight. At least two of those leaders who got married and had a child admitted that they were actually still gay and lesbian. We have kept saying over and over on this thread...to @mellissa and others that "Christian Counseling" and pray the gay away do not now and have never worked. I can only emphasize again that trying to change something that is an inherent part of your mental, emotional and perhaps even physical makeup will not ever work. It will however cause more problems. Seeing a therapist is an excellent idea. Find someone who lists working with the LGBTQIA+ Family as part of their practice. Look for recommendations and feedback about their practice before making a choice of who to see.