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General News carrying a gun for protection despite the law?

Discussion in 'Current Events, World News, & LGBT News' started by sldanlm, Jun 16, 2016.

  1. VacantPlanets

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    They aren't going to ban semi-auto rifles. I'd get that out of your head. These shootings are done with Autos, not semis.
     
    #21 VacantPlanets, Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  2. Lazuri

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    The most recent one was done with a semi, so think again.

    As long as the magazine is high capacity--which is easily fitted into the rifle this guy used, for example--it becomes capable of racking up a lot of kills in a mass shooting incident.
     
  3. VacantPlanets

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    Most of them are not, so it doesn't matter as that's an exception to the rule. I can do the SAME damage with a handgun. It will fire as many rounds. The problem was this dude got them legally. That's garbage. Once you're investigated by the Feds.....no more guns for you. I have a rifle like that.....my family is military, we all do. Haven't shot anyone yet.
     
  4. brainwashed

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    I disagree 100% with the statement, "guns were".

    My opinion. Guns are a tool. One aspect of the tool is, they can kill. Many "things" we humans have in our lives can kill - knifes, cars, chain saws (there a movie about that), ice pics, on and on.

    The real problem in America is the lack of mental health care. Second, there is to much violence. America needs more art and time off to interact with others. America also has way to much greed. Greed kills jobs and send them overseas.
     
  5. VacantPlanets

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    No, the original statement is correct, guns were developed for, and through wars.

    Also at least half these people, or more are not crazy. We simply need to be able to say no to violent felons and people are terrorist watch lists. Only 12 states make you get a background check no matter where you buy the gun. 38 have no checks for gun shows, etc.
     
  6. Chloe

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    Excellent points made here (and in the first post) about responsible carrying --
    I'd rather see restrictions on drinking while carrying in a bar, not restrictions on carrying in a bar.

    Also, not on topic, but I want to post something useful about types of gun --

    From Outdoor Life's article 20 Versatile Semi-Automatic Rifles

    The point is that it's mostly perception now, not function. As for the larger capacity, an experienced shooter can change out a 10-round magazine very quickly, and those smaller magazines fit into pockets easily.
     
  7. Blackbirdz

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    No, Lazuri is right. Semi-automatic (not fully automatic) weapons are involved in more shootings. Also, according to this article, when the mass shooting involves high-capacity magazines or assault weapons, it results in more casualties and more fatalities.
     
  8. sldanlm

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    And that's the problem with a gun ban, how do you enforce it? America is not Australia or other countries. If you made them illegal, you're not going to have large lines of people voluntarily turning them in.

    ---------- Post added 17th Jun 2016 at 01:08 PM ----------



    What are you basing this on? I've heard this over and over from some people. The reason I ask is because the people that I've talked to that are professionals and have actually gotten into real life gunfights aren't telling me this. It's true that if you have a small handgun it's not as good against an AR as a larger handgun, or even another long gun, but it's not impossible to defend yourself with one. It depends on the circumstances.
     
  9. Lazuri

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    No, the point is that it's as capable since it was used to make the most lethal mass shooting in US history. It shouldn't matter if most of them are made with assault rifles, what should matter is how capable they are. and no, you can't fire as many rounds with a handgun, that's a ridiculous statement. A handgun normally has a default magazine size of 7-15 bullets whereas the clip size of a rifle--semi or auto--are not uncommon to hold 30 and can use magazines holding up to 100 bullets, that's a lot less reloading to do and easier to carry large amounts of ammo for.

    Not to mention a semi rifle is a lot easier to handle and use than a handgun. Do you for real think that a person could, with just a handgun, kill 49 and wound 53 people? I find that statement ridiculous unless that person is John Wick.
     
  10. Argentwing

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    [​IMG]

    This particular drum magazine holds 50. And seeing as pistol rounds are generally a lot shorter cartridges than rifles', a standard magazine for one is a lot smaller, meaning you can pack more in the same pocket.

    As for the shooting skills of a person, yeah it's unlikely even with a drum that you could kill 50 people with a pistol before reloading. But to regulate high-capacity rifles and nothing else is sort of nonsensical, since you could always modify anything to do anything. Restricting the equipment means you'd have to force particular actions only (revolvers and lever actions can't easily be made to carry a ton of rounds) or just go for a total ban, but that's even more unlikely and disagreeable to many.
     
    #30 Argentwing, Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  11. midwestgirl89

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    The fact that an off duty police officer tried to take him down but couldn't. Yeah you could maybe take him down with a smaller gun but no one was going to bring a gun to the club in the first place and people are basing it on what actually happened.
     
  12. Lazuri

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    I'm aware that handguns have drum magazines--but totally disregarding that they're more uncommon than drum or barrel magazines for rifles--it makes a handgun extremely unwieldy and difficult to handle, unless you have a folding stock. And I know pistol cartridges are smaller and easier to carry when loose, but who starts refilling a magazine in the middle of a mass shooting? My point was that carrying many magazines is easier than carrying a lot of loose ammo and if the magazines carry more rounds, it makes it easier to carry large quantities of ammo as long as you've the physical strength to do so.

    So yeah, I know everything can be modified to fill its shoes unless you ban all of it, but the point is to make it as hard as possible to do it. It's the same principle as the Denuvo piracy protection from games; sure, it gets cracked eventually, but denuvo games takes 1-3 months to crack instead of 1-3 hours and those 1-3 months boost sales a lot for people who don't have the patience to wait. The point is to make it as inconvenient as possible since stopping outright is impossible without making it too inconvenient or controlling to the general populace; it deters the more casual perpetrators while those truly dedicated will not be deterred whatever you do.

    In this case, getting your hands on a weapon of this lethality should be difficult enough to deter all but the most dedicated psychopaths. As for civilians, why'd you even need a weapon capable of such power?
     
  13. Argentwing

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    No arguments from me about its unwieldiness-- that thing is probably extremely heavy and a pain in the shoulders to extend outward for any length of time. They were intended for sessions at the range to avoid having to refill mags as frequently. Speaking of which, that's not what I meant. I meant regular pistol magazines are easy to carry in larger numbers than 30rd. rifle magazines. Of course refilling loose cartridges on the fly is most unrealistic. But the thought of someone concealing a pistol and a detached drum is not hard to fathom.

    The only thing standing in the way of such an "inconvenience" doctrine, that I see at least, is the literal wording of the second amendment. It infringes on the right to bear arms and is technically illegal. Whether it's against the spirit of the legislation I can't say. But modifying a pistol into a carbine, increasing its power and precision, is as easy as sticking an external kit and barrel extension on it. No intense machining needed.
     
    #33 Argentwing, Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  14. sldanlm

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    No one except the officer knows what kind of handgun the officer was armed with, how far away he was from the shooter at the time, the skill level or experience of the cop, etc. The killer didn't hit the cop either, even with an AR, although he tried. Despite what you might hear most average cops can't shoot any better than the average trained civilian in some agencies. And of course no one brought a gun to the club except the killer, it was illegal, which was the whole point of the article. The suggestion that an armed patron couldn't have defended themselves because the cop didn't happen to hit him is no more true than if someone said because the cop in Texas who took out 2 terrorist armed with AK's with just a mere pistol at 25 yards, that means anyone can do it. Both are incorrect assumptions.

    I'm not suggesting any of the patrons should've been armed to protect themselves, although they would've at least had a chance. It was the article that suggested the patrons be armed despite the law. I know someone who has a Florida CHL and who was at the club that night. No, he didn't carry there. As far as training he has extensive training and experience in the military. Thankfully he left before all that happened, because he had to work the next morning. He or I don't know if he had been there with a gun at that time if it would've made a difference, I'm just glad he left early. Or course if had known an attack was going to occur he would've reported it, but then how could he have known without being involved somehow?
    And would the FBI have done anything anyway?

    I don't feel the patrons should've needed to arm themselves. I do feel like the club could've possibly done more to have some kind of plan for a mass shooter, considering ISIS has been telling their followers in the US all month to kill "Sodomites" whenever they see them during Pride month, and to hit any "soft" target they can, if they can't join the fight overseas. If not plainclothes armed security actually inside the building, and not merely the parking lot, then at least a evac plan of some kind. So far it appears the only one that had a plan for what to do in a mass shooting was the terrorist. :frowning2:
     
    #34 sldanlm, Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016
  15. Andrew99

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    They can ban the purchase of guns though it will be hard, but they can't actually come into our homes and take our guns away.
     
  16. Shorthaul

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    I would like to point out that there are plenty of non lethal tools for self defense a person can have on their person. Various sprays and stun guns all come to mind. It is kind of hard for someone to shoot a gun when they lose all muscle control after being hit with 50,000 volts of electricity. Or when they reflexively drop the weapon to wipe mace out of their eyes.

    A solid self defense course or martial arts training can enable you to disarm someone with a weapon. Both military and police officers are trained in how to disarm, armed suspects.

    However no one can tell you to carry a; handgun, stun gun, mace or take self defense training. You have to make that choice all on your own.

    I don't know the club lay out, but someone with a bit of luck, skill and bravery might have stopped the shooter just by bashing his head in with a bar stool or beer bottle. I can't say one way or the other if I would have panicked like most or actually grabbed something and tried to stop him if I was in that situation.

    From what I read the shooter jumped through a lot of hoops and put a lot of effort into this. I don't think more laws would have stopped this. Cause if he put that much effort into building a bomb instead of buying a gun, it would have been so much worse.