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Bottom shame

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by nerdbrain, Dec 20, 2018.

  1. nerdbrain

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    Hi, some of you might remember me from a few years ago, when I was a regular visitor to this forum. I might do a full update later, but for now I wanted to talk about one subject in particular.

    Just as a bit of context, I'm a 39 year old man in NYC, divorced from my ex-wife. I've had an active gay fantasy life since I was around 18 but only a handful of experiments through the years.

    I haven't been able to wear a gay identity comfortably all this time, despite the regular and powerful fantasies. I've come to believe that the main reason for this is shame, specifically bottom shame.

    My fantasies are almost exclusively about bottoming (receiving anal sex). In the privacy of my own bedroom, with a toy, I have a regular masturbatory ritual which is very powerful and erotic.

    But the few times I've experimented with men, I just kind of shut down sexually. I can't get into it. It's like, "What am I doing here with this naked guy? This is weird." I don't have much interest in dating guys, or at least I can't seem to work up the courage to pursue them. In the fantasy, the other guy is an abstraction -- when there's a real human involved, it's very different. When I go to gay bars or other gay events, or even look on the various dating apps, it's hard for me to picture having sex with anyone there.

    The fact is that I have a LOT of hangups around bottoming with another man. It's not even about the idea of being gay generally -- I've often thought that if I were a top, I would have no problem coming out.

    The passive role, which is so closely associated with being feminine and submissive, is both thrilling and terrifying. When I feel the desire to be penetrated, I have so many negative associations with it. It seems like a weakness, a terrible secret that I wish would disappear, a dark, irresistible, shameful craving.

    With women I'm comfortable playing the dominant role, and in fact I'm turned on by women who are submissive towards me. I can imagine bragging about a sexual encounter with a woman (not that I actually would), but would be mortified revealing the details if I bottomed with a man. Again, if I was topping a man I'd be fine with it. It's the gender role or the power dynamic involved that's the hangup.

    I don't know how to see it in a positive light, as a healthy and normal aspect of my sexuality. It's the opposite of empowering. The notion of a man who craves another man's penis is repulsive to me. I've had guys hit on me who are obviously bottoms (and assume I'm a top), and I just feel sorry for them. Like, "Look at you, poor bastard, needing another man's dick to make you feel better."

    I'm pretty sure that this goes deep into some kind of unresolved issues around my identity and masculinity. I'm wondering if anyone here has had similar feelings and can suggest any ways to work through them.
     
  2. whistle1

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    I have absolutely no experience in this matter, but I'd like to throw in my two cents worth.

    I recall seeing a story about married men who would have sex with other men on the weekends. These men said they were not gay or bisexual because they were the ones boinking the other guys (i.e, they were tops). They said that the other guys were gay because they were bottoms. In that context, it put a stigma on the bottoms.

    I can also understand how a fantasy can be one thing and a reality another. I have never had any thoughts or fantasies about being bottomed by another man. When it comes to pretty trans girls, however...

    If I ever found myself in a situation to act on that fantasy, would I be able to do it? My guess is that I would react like you and ask what I'm doing there. As you said, the trans girls are just abstractions. Actually being with one is a completely different story.

    I can also relate when you say that the notion of a man wanting another man's cock is repulsive. I often think how pathetic I must be to have gotten to the point in my life where there is no chance I will ever be with a woman again and now have to resort to fantasizing about cock. I feel like a complete loser at times.

    As far as working through these feelings, I am more lost than you. I do wish you luck in figuring it out though.
     
  3. Nickw

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    Hey Nerdbrain

    I was wondering the other day how you're doing.

    I think I went through a phase of the same thinking myself. Somehow I had the notion that being a top was being the guy in control...the man. It was more comfortable. And, to be honest, I looked down on bottoms a bit.

    I don't any longer. I don't have a lots of experience with anal sex. Only a few guys. But, my first was a very masculine young guy. After my wife agreed that intercourse was OK with this guy, we went on a weekend camping trip.

    He was really turned on to the idea of being my "first" and his excitement was engaging. So, I took control and was the dominant bottom the first time. Then we switched.

    Being equal partners in the sexual activities from both "vantage points" was such a good way for me to lessen the shame I had attached to being a bottom.

    Now, I won't be involved in any sort of an unequal power situation relationship although sometimes it is desirable when one of us takes control. I enjoy both submissive and dominant sex regardless of which position I'm in.

    Maybe you need to be a dominant bottom a few times to get used to the idea that being the bottom is not being the lessor?

    That's my idea on the bottom shaming part.

    What I don't know for sure is if you are really gay? As a bisexual, the thought of a woman topping me with an appliance is a huge turn on. The pleasure of receiving anal penetration is not, necessarily, a gay thing. Gay men don't own prostate orgasms.

    I would think you would have some attraction for men outside of this fantasy. Is it possible you equate anal penetration with gay and are defining yourself with this?

    Have you spent a night just dating a guy and making out without considering it ending in sex? If that's not hot for you I wonder why?
     
  4. justaguyinsf

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    There seems to be a stigma attached to being a bottom among some gay men, which I assume comes from the idea that women are passive recepticles--a falsehood in itself. And I think the over-reliance on sexual "roles" (e.g., top vs. bottom) to define onesself is also often misleading and feeds the stigma. I always identify as versatile and find any sexual activity with someone I care about or am interested in to be enjoyable, including bottoming, about which I feel no shame. Perhaps you're caught up in the sort of false top/bottom dichotomy and could instead think of yourself as versatile and open to new things?
     
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  5. Patrick7269

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    nerdbrain,

    As a gay man who has experience with anal sex (both active and passive), I’m wondering if you are having an issue with intimacy, not necessarily anal sex.

    If I were to put sex acts on a continuum from least to most intimate, bottoming would be far toward the intimate. It feels good physically but it’s also probably the most emotionally intimate sexual thing to do with a guy. I think you’ve found the pleasure of the prostate without knowing what it all means for you as a man with another man.

    My thought would be to have a trusted partner to start with jacking off together, oral, etc. then get into more intimate things as you feel ready. Bottoming is challenging emotionally even for the most experienced gay man and many gay men don’t start with it. Even the simple process of talking openly helps pave the way to the prostate. ;-)

    There’s also fear. When alone with a toy, you’re not embarrassed if there’s a mess, and you’re not afraid of an STD. You also aren’t afraid of rejection or judgment of your body. I think some of the shame you describe is also rooted in fear. Of course fear is also a barrier to intimacy.

    If it’s any reassurance I’ve known guys who describe your concern. I think it’s a process of intimacy rather than plumbing. An unattributed quote (does anyone know who said this? George Burns?) I love is “the most important sex organ is between the ears.”

    Best regards,

    Patrick
     
  6. Chiroptera

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    The social power related to being "dominant" and "submissive" in bed dates to the ancient age, where being a top was frequently directly related to having more social power.

    Nowadays it is also related to sexism, and how women (usually the ones in submissive roles, or at least bottoming) are seen in most societies as being "inferior" than men. Of course, that kind of prejudice and bigotry is absolutely nonsense (and a huge problem), but even if we know it rationally, sometimes it isn't so easy to deconstruct our inner barriers and prejudices related to all of this.

    In my experience, I'm usually a bottom. I was with my ex for 3 years and, during this time, we were sexually active a few times every week, and I only tried topping 3 or 4 times (without success - I have a problem of being too nervous, but I can also say that I indeed prefer bottoming).

    Long story short... Being a bottom or enjoying a submissive role in bed doesn't make you less respectable or less X than someone else, regardless of your gender or orientation. I've once heard a Brazilian YouTuber saying something like this: If doing something makes your "bell ring" then go for it! As long as you aren't hurting anyone against their will, of course.

    If you enjoy being penetrated, then that's perfectly fine. Just take the safety measures (condom+lubricant) and enjoy the activity! If you think about it in a purely biological perspective, you are inserting a body part into another body part, and that generates pleasure. There's nothing wrong or shameful in that - it's a natural process that you enjoy.

    Also, remember that no one needs to know what you are doing in bed, if you want to keep it private. And if someone who is with you in that "private chamber" reacts badly to you wishing to be penetrated and disrespects you because of it, then I don't think that's a person you want to be with in the first place.
     
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  7. Patrick7269

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    To add to what Chiropetra wrote, I also wonder if our ancient ignorance of biology contributed to the sexism and even mysogeny associated with shame of being penetrated.

    I think there was once a belief that men carried an entire zygote, and the woman was simply a place for it to grow. This could have led to a mistaken perception that men are the “real” bearers of life, and women are not, and that men are privileged in some “divine” way that women aren’t.

    Of course today we know that both sexes equally create life. However I think some sexism has root in ancient ignorance of the truth of science.

    Patrick
     
  8. out2019

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    I am not out yet, and just coming to terms with being gay, but for a long while it was an abstraction with me, now my fantasies definitely involve 'a guy' and looking into his eyes and saying I love you..the fantasies became 10x more intense after that and really helped solidify for that I am gay..
    I appreciate your honesty about 'bottoms' 'needing' dick.. I see it as a physical expression of intimacy-
    This might explain the 'abstraction' and when I was closeted to myself I treated men as an abstraction.
     
  9. Contented

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    As already said I find bottoming to such an intense, sensual, erotic expression of my sexuality. It is vulnerable,humbling and empowering at the same time. The literal and figurative connection with my BF is absolutely incredible.i cannot imagine no penetrative sex in my relationship with him. The toe curling orgasms are better than anything I ever experience with a woman.
     
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  10. nerdbrain

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    Patrick, this response resonates with me a lot.

    The notion of intimacy with a man is quite foreign to me. And the idea of a continuum, from kissing to anal sex or more, is also not really there when it comes to men. My fantasy exists all by itself, as a primal force devoid of emotional or social context. It's not a natural extension of a romantic attraction, just a blind craving that demands to be fed.

    This idea of finding a "trusted partner" to start playing around with doesn't hold much appeal for me. In my fantasy, someone simply shows up when I'm ready, does the deed, and vanishes. Obviously I would never engage in that kind of high risk anonymous sex in real life, but it sounds wonderfully efficient.

    With women I have a much more developed sense of romance and intimacy. Sex flows naturally out of those. I get turned on when I get close to a real woman. So I understand how it's supposed to work. (For the record, the idea of a woman penetrating me with a strap-on is not too appealing either. With women, I am more naturally dominant and those fantasies tend to recede.)

    So how do I deal with a powerful fantasy that is compartmentalized from the rest of my personality? Intellectually, I understand that integrating the fantasy is the path to psychological health and peace of mind. But instinctively, I recoil at the idea. It's threatening to my sense of identity as a heterosexual(ish) man. It's one thing to have these isolated fantasies; it's quite another to start developing romantic feelings for men. It's hard to even imagine how that would work.

    I am trying really hard not to dismiss this idea outright, as I have for so many years, because I am exhausted and demoralized from dealing with this inner conflict and I desire internal peace and harmony above all else. But right now, I deeply resent the gay part of myself for screwing up my life and essentially hijacking my mind. I hate to acquiesce to its demands; it feels like giving in to a terrorist. But maybe this is some kind of false pride or ego.

    I don't know if any of this makes sense. Thank you all for your input. I am so grateful for the steadfast EC community and the willingness of others to help.
     
    #10 nerdbrain, Dec 21, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2018
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  11. PatrickUK

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    I found this quote interesting, because it implies that you are really grasping on to the idea of being heterosexual and cannot, or will not let it go. You are resentful of the gay part of you and don't want to acquiesce to it (if indeed, that is what you need to do). Is it possible that this is the real brick wall you are facing? Is it emotional resistance to the idea of being anything other than straight that is making you recoil and dissociate when you are bottoming with another guy?

    It's entirely possible that there is far more to all of this than you imagine. Having read your post carefully, I think this goes beyond what it means to bottom and is more deeply connected to issues of power, control, perceptions of masculinity, gender and relationship dynamics and our toxic friend - shame. If you were able to delve into all of those issues it might bring some loose ends together and give you greater clarity, but that process in itself can be difficult because it requires us to be open and vulnerable (something that many of us associate with bottoming actually) and may rake up things from our past that we'd rather keep a lid on.

    Other people have already mentioned that bottoming isn't necessarily about being passive or submissive and I entirely agree. In reality, some guys who enjoy bottoming are very demanding and assertive in that role, completely reversing our inbuilt perceptions. Far from being emasculated or feminised, they turn the tables and totally control the positioning, pace and energy of their sexual encounters. Of course, this runs counter to our ingrained perceptions and prejudices, so we struggle to take it on board or accept it as fact.

    I'm sure bottom shame is part of what's going on, but I would urge you to look more closely at it and ask yourself if there are other issues playing away in the background. I strongly suspect there is more to it.
     
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  12. I'mStillStanding

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    @nerdbrain I am going to second what @PatrickUK said. Maybe it’s more about being gay rather than the act of bottoming...

    For me there was a lot of shame at the idea of pleasure when it came to anal stimulation before I came out (to myself). But once I accepted my sexuality something changed. I was ready to explore it. I found a friend to “show me the ropes!” I had never been with a guy, so I was really nervous and finding the right person was very important. At our second encounter he made a comment about how he would never have figured I’d be a power bottom, I wasn’t sure if it was good or bad even after I looked it up (because I had no idea what it meant lol). But after thinking on it a few minutes I realized I’m ok with that. I mean at the end of the day I have total power over my sexual encounters because I say when, what, where, etc. and I don’t mind instructing during the event. So if I’m ever in a submissive role it’s an illusion I’ve created to control a situation and there is something wickedly powerful about that!
     
  13. Patrick7269

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    I think PatrickUK brought up some excellent things to consider.

    Another potential thing to consider - labels. It seems you may be struggling with how you innately sense your sexuality and your needs with the world’s labels for sexuality. If you let go the “conventional” roles and labels you are left with what you actually are and feel regardless of how the world labels it. Maybe it would help to simply defer labels for now until you resolve this.

    This might be helped through “mindfulness”. As you are with a man in private, perhaps make note of what you are feeling moment to moment to moment. Do you feel heaviness or sadness? Anxiety? Desire? Beneath the emotions, does your body feel tense physically? Constricted? Are you able to breathe normally and relaxed?

    I suspect you may not be allowing yourself to be fully present in the moment with a man. That numbness or “zoning out” you feel may be covering something you don’t want to feel, aren’t familiar with and are afraid to feel, or know there are broader ramifications (i.e. confronting your actual sexuality) if you allow yourself to feel.

    In my opinion you’re facing a fear that’s likely larger in your mind than actually warrants. If you aren’t straight, and if you do like full-on sex with a man, your life will go on. You need to be compassionate toward yourself, allow yourself to process and acknowledge what your body tells you when you are with a man, and handle the reality.

    Of course this is just my opinion and my advice. We’re here for you every step of the way.

    Patrick
     
  14. nerdbrain

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    Thanks guys for all these insights. You're right of course -- this goes deeper than just bottom shame, it's about discomfort with being gay.

    In my mind, I've sort of said to myself, "If I have absolutely no choice other than to be gay, then I suppose I'll be gay. But until I'm 100% sure I'm gay and it's something I'm happy about and want to pursue, I'm not going there. It's the last resort."

    So I've pushed that part of myself away into a little box. And then it manifests as these sexual compulsions. And I resent it for making its presence known.

    So I guess, behind my reasonable facade of "Well if I'm gay then I guess I'll be gay," deep down what I'm really saying is, "Over my dead body."

    Intellectually, I understand that compartmentalizing yourself is deeply unhealthy and that integration is the path to peace. But on a gut level, I've spent my whole life treating gay feelings as the enemy. Now I have to invite them in and make them a central part of my identity?

    Not to be overly dramatic, but that idea feels roughly equivalent to Israel inviting the Palestinians to come in and take over Jerusalem.
     
    #14 nerdbrain, Dec 22, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  15. PatrickUK

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    Do you think you are gay? Your profile says questioning and in your first post you talked about sex with women, which you seem to find easier to accept and comprehend and presumably hasn't been totally written off.

    Clearly there is more going on and you do feel something for men and enjoy anal stimulation, but that doesn't necessarily mean you are gay. Is it possible that you are in fact bisexual?

    From what I'm reading you are perhaps trying too hard to live with labels and seem to be [attempting to] pigeonhole yourself into being one thing or the other. You are looking for 100% certainty, but how often in life do we have that? In my own life very few things are dead certs and I think it's the same for most people.

    I might be getting you wrong here nerdbrain, but it sounds like you are trying to find an all or nothing position that may not be necessary or even a true reflection of your sexual identity. Might it be better to look for a middle way, which could more reasonably fit with a bisexual identity? If you embraced that idea it could help you to dispense with some of the really fixed notions that have developed about who you are and why you wish to bottom?
     
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  16. I'mStillStanding

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    Well, there is more than gay and straight for sure. But don’t think of it as inviting them in (it seems they’ve been there), but give them space to figure out where they fit in you know. We (those who repress our sexuality) keep our emotions so bottled up that we don’t know how to let them go and just see where they lead... still struggling with this myself (not in relation to being gay more in terms of relationships).
     
  17. OnTheHighway

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    Nerdbrain, when later in life I became sexually active after embracing my sexuality, I was extremely apprehensive about gay sex and bottoming more specifically. I had a lot of shame to work through and it was reflected in my apprehensive towards both gay sex and bottoming. I participated in many threads on the topic as my journey progressed and I worked through the shame while at the same time I embraced gay sexual activity.

    My shame was a result of many factors: being gay amongst a heteronormative society, exposure to homophobia, perceived disapproval of family and friends as well as physical and emotional childhood traumas. Shame comes in many forms and for many reasons and there is a lot of hard work to do in order to get to the core of it, understand it, manage it and rise above it. When you do the hard work, when you peel the onion on yourself, you can begin to build self respect, confidence and esteem. I personally saw a direct correlation between my ability to enjoy gay sex (and being a bottom) and my need to develop my own self confidence, self respect, self esteem and self worth. While I progressed on my journey I embraced bottoming to the fullest.

    After initial apprehension, I became euphoric when I bottomed in those early days. I loved the feeling of being penetrated. Yes, it did provide a form of validation for me as I tried to fill voids of self respect, but it also was relfective of my ability to fully embrace my sexuality (two sides of the same coin). As I became comfortable with gay sex, I selfishly sought out top partners to satisfy my craving to bottom.

    Today, I do not get the same satisfaction that I previously did from bottoming. At the core, I have worked through a lot of shame. It was hard, sometimes discouraging, very emotional but absolutely necessary and rewarding. As a result, I am now in a mutually satisfying, monogamous and loving relationship with my current boyfriend where I am primarily in the top role and he primarily enjoys being In the bottom position. An interest side effect, I now find it sexually satisfying to be selfless during sex where I focus on my partners own satisfaction rather than my own.

    I recall many of your prior threads, At the core, based on my perception of what you have written, it seems you want to open up and address your own shame although you have yet to find the courage to do so. Maybe its time to dig deep and start to heal?
     
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  18. nerdbrain

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    Patrick,

    The best way I can answer your question is that I think I am gay, but I don't feel gay. In other words, the logical conclusion after considering my fantasy life and desires is that I'm gay. But I have yet to own that and make it part of my day-to-day personality.

    As far as women go, it's certainly easier for me to play the heterosexual role, especially as it reinforces my self-concept as a "straight man." But I have come to believe that a much of my drive to have sex with women is about putting notches in my belt and reassuring myself that I can still perform heterosexually. I don't really know what my ideal form of intimate, loving relationship looks like. Most of my experience is with women, but I suspect that I might want that with a man.

    Honestly, the idea of intimacy with a man is even more scary and threatening than bottoming. At that point I would be truly gay and there would be no going back.

    Hi OTH, it's good to see you here.

    You're exactly right. I want to address my shame. I'm so tired of it. I just don't know how. What I was trying to say in my initial post is that I think I am more or less OK with the idea of being gay in general, but I can't get past the shame around being a bottom specifically.

    As far as your experience goes, I really admire the progress you've made. I've also observed that more mature, self-realized gay men tend be more versatile sexually or at least not so hung up on top/bottom role definition. It's more about the connection with the other person. I'm nowhere near that level of self-acceptance.

    I just don't know what to do. Part of me wants to move forward with my life, even if that means "becoming gay." The other part won't have it -- it's just unacceptable somehow. I'm not religious and I live in New York City -- there's not much in the way of social stigma. The resistance towards being gay is deep in my psyche, as deep as they gay feelings themselves. I have no idea how to reprogram it.

    I was at an AA meeting just now (I've been sober for nearly 3 months, after a nearly 2-year hiatus.) There was a guy there I thought was attractive. I considered going up to him after the meeting. But then my inner voice chimed in: "What are you going to do? Get his number? Go on a date? Then what? Can you imagine kissing him and making out with him? How does this story end? What do you want out of this interaction?" I had no response.
     
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  19. Dionysios

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    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Good grief! Why do so many people, gay and straight, believe that someone who is a bottom is somehow inferior? Bottom, top or both, it shouldn't matter. Both partners should be equal. Even for straight folks, most women do not feel submissive or inferior to their male partners. This is not the 18th century. This is the 21st century and we shouldn't perpetuate old stereotypes when it comes to tops and bottoms.
     
  20. Robyn mac

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2018
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    140
    Location:
    Long island ,ny
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    Other
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Some people
    To me it sounds like you like to keep your gay feelings to your self as a fantasy . Did you ever try being pegged by a women ? Being a bottom is enjoyable and empowering. Never gave I felt inferior for choosing my desires.
    Coming to terms with your sexuality is the 1st thing to over come. Work slowly to anal sex. Some gay men aren't into anal. That's ok. Just be who you are.
     
    whlr1977 likes this.