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biromantic lesbian?????

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by jen4rd, Apr 29, 2019.

  1. jen4rd

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    I’m glad you’re addressing the fact that I’m not here to have people doubt whether or not I love my boyfriend. Thank you for that. So my boyfriend knows I don’t like doing sexual things with men, he’s not very accepting and it’s unfortunate because I love him but he’s very unfair... he makes me make myself uncomfortable for him but I don’t get any satisfaction. He considers anything else with anyone else cheating, I do too but I’m too nervous to suggest an open relationship which, at this point, I’d be willing to do
     
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  2. Chiroptera

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    Please note that what Chip, others and I have said isn't that you don't love your boyfriend. We aren't questioning that, after all, you feel what you feel. Read our posts again and you will see that's not our point.

    What we trying to show to you is that there is no separation between romantic and sexual attractions. Does it mean that you don't love your boyfriend? No, your feelings are your own. However, what we are questioning is how you are interpreting, perceiving and labeling this relationship.

    Again, if you want to have sexual experiences outside of this relationship and none inside this relationship... what would be the difference between an open relationship with him and a friendship with him? You said you would marry him, but what do you mean by marriage? Going through the rituals and processes of marriage purely for the sake of the label "married"?

    I repeat: Your feelings are your own, and we aren't trying to invalidate them. We are questioning the labels you are using, because it seems they are causing you more confusion than good, ending up complicating things for you. That's my main point.

    As you said yourself:

    If you are not satisfied in this type of relationship with him, why insist on calling it a romantic relationship, instead of considering that, while you are able (based on what you describe) to have deep connections with men, you don't seem satisfied with this type of romantic-sexual relationship with a man?

    I'm insisting on this not to make you uncomfortable, but because what you describe is a very common line of thought found on people who are questioning themselves and are in denial of their orientation (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, etc.). It isn't uncommon for people in the denial stage to find new labels (like the ones who separate romantic and sexual attraction), which is basically a way to tell themselves something like "see, I'm not straight, but I'm still able to maintain a happy and satisfactory relationship with people of the opposite sex that is different from a friendship!". The question is: Is it really different from a friendship? Based on what you describe, no, it is not, especially since you just described you aren't satisfied about how things are now.

    You don't need to answer me, but here's some food for thought: Imagine you weren't in this relationship but, instead, you were dating a woman. Imagine that you have a good number of male and female friends, some of them who are very close to you, but you are only dating your girlfriend, and that also involves sex and everything else that comes in your mind involving a relationship like that.

    Try fantasizing about scenarios like this one. How do you feel? Do you think a relationship like that (with a woman, involving sex) would be more satisfactory to you?
     
  3. Love4Ever

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    Then I am going to say this because I think it needs to be said. This does not sound like a healthy relationship. If he does not respect your feelings and makes you uncomfortable that is a big red flag imho. You deserve to be able to have your sexual needs met and if he is preventing you from being happy then I think you need to consider leaving him.
     
    #23 Love4Ever, May 1, 2019
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  4. Love4Ever

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    I think this is really good advice. I personally am happier with a woman so I do think you need to consider this. Especially since your boyfriend is not making you happy.
     
    #24 Love4Ever, May 1, 2019
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  5. Leah061

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    I agree that it’s concerning that your boyfriend isn’t accepting of your feelings for women and makes you uncomfortable. If you get nothing else from this thread, please know that you deserve a healthier relationship than what you’re describing. You say yourself that it’s unfortunate that you love him but he’s unfair to you. You never have to do anything sexually that you are not comfortable with. Ever. It doesn’t matter who the person is. Especially not when you seem to care more about them than they care about you. That person will never be worth your time, romantically, emotionally, sexually, or otherwise.
     
  6. Love4Ever

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    I agree.
     
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  7. Chip

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    Which is *exactly* what the flat-earthers say. And it's really sad when people just flatly refuse to acknowledge existing research and study... in this case, decades worth of research on relationships and interpersonal communication.

    You do know it's impossible to prove a negative, right? How would you go about proving that unicorns don't exist? You could say that no one has ever seen one, but that wouldn't conclusively prove they don't exist. However, it's a pretty widely accepted fact (well, maybe not to you) that unicorns don't exist.

    Likewise, researchers, social scientists, therapists, and others have studied this issue for decades, and the data is pretty conclusive.

    Great. Glad we're getting somewhere.

    And I'm absolutely entitled to describe myself as "unicornsexual" or to decide the sky is pink, if that's what I believe it is. Likewise, you're perfectly entitled to describe your relationship in whatever way you want. The issue is just that accurate information be provided to others who trust the EC community for useful help to understand themselves.
     
  8. jen4rd

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    I actually have had a girlfriend pretty recently :3 me and my boyfriend have been on and off for a few years, on one of our off points i dated a girl for 2 weeks and it was amazing but i still had feelings for my current boyfriend. And sadly they are feelings i can't seem to get rid of. I honestly do understand the point that all of you are making, i should've worded it differently, i apologize, i guess what i was trying to say is i'd like a little more help on what i am instead of what the feelings are for my boyfriend. when i say i could see myself marrying him i don't mean just for the label of marriage, granted i am looking for a label for my sexuality but labels aren't everything to me. I meant i could see a future with him, not necessarily marriage but i could see myself spending my life with him (if he learned to understand my feelings), if marriage is in the picture, so be it but it's not something i'm striving for i guess you could say. All i think i'm trying to say is i know i have romantic feelings for men. Romantic and sexual, at least in my world, are different, the romantic feelings i have are a possibility for love, true love, not just friendship love, the kind of love that you have with someone you would marry. The sexual feelings are strictly women. If i found a man who didn't care about sex or any of that and if i truly loved him i could live with that as long as i was happy. i could see a future there, possibly marriage. So not just a deep connection like a friendship, but deeper. I tend to have a hard time wording things properly, i am commonly misunderstood and that is 100% my fault so i apologize if i've come off the wrong way or haven't worded something correctly.
     
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  9. Love4Ever

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    Imho you haven’t incorrectly worded anything. You should do you. My only concern at this point is that I feel that despite the fact you love your boyfriend that he doesn’t truly deserve your love because he doesn’t treat you right. You deserve to have someone that you’re happy with and who wants you to be happy. I guess I am saying don’t wait around with the idea that he will change. Because people sadly don’t sometimes. There is someone out there who will give you the respect you deserve. Whether that is a man or a woman is up to you. It’s your life.
     
  10. jen4rd

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    I'm sorry.. i'm just a little offended by this... There's a difference between trying to say a unicorn is real and saying there's a difference between romantic and sexual feelings. as i've stated in all of my other responses to people, MY romantic feelings are different than MY sexual feelings. If i have romantic feelings for someone that means i can love them, it's not a friendship. i am in a relationship with my boyfriend, it is not a friendship. But i'm not interested in sexual things with him. i am interested in sexual things with just women. If romantic feelings and sexual feelings are the same thing then you are basically saying every thing in the romantic spectrum such as biromantic, panromantic etc. are all invalid. Which is not true.
     
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  11. jen4rd

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    I appreciate your advice and i definitely will think the whole situation over. Thank you
     
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  12. Chiroptera

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    First of all, there's no need for an apology. I know how hard it is to express ourselves, especially through texts on the internet and also considering we are talking about feelings, which are everything but simple!

    But yes, I think I understand your point a little better now. Thanks for clarifying. :slight_smile:

    The thing is, like I said before, there's no limit on how deep a relationship needs to be before it ceases to be a friendship and becomes something more (like a marrige type of relationship). Relationships are more complicated than that, and I don't think the different types of relationship (friends, romantic-sexual, etc.) are measurable by depth, only.

    In other words, in all of your posts until this point, you didn't describe anything that would confirm that your relationship with your current boyfriend is any different than a friendship, even if it is the closest friendship in the world.

    Why am I insisting on this, you might ask? Because not only, again, there is no evidence of separation between romantic and sexual attractions, but forcing this thought is confusing and imprecise. You said yourself before, when I quoted your post, and now you are confirming it, that your relationship with him isn't stable and fulfilling to you.

    Quoting again:

    I'm not trying to force my ideas into you, but, based on what you are describing, this isn't a happy and satisfying relationship, even if you have good moments together (that don't involve sex or physical attraction). Am I correct in this interpretation?

    But then, you say:

    Do you notice how contradictory these thoughts are? If I'm interpreting what you said correctly (and correct me if I'm not), you reported that you have an unfulfilling relationship with him, and, maybe because of this (or because of other reasons that are related to this), the relationship isn't stable and you two have been on and off for years.

    It is clear that you like him. But do you truly want to spend the rest of your life in a relationship like the one you are describing? You say you could, if he learned to understand your feelings, but aren't you essentially saying that you could do it, provided that he was a different person, thinking differently? That doesn't make a lot of sense.

    You also said:

    Again, think about the scenario I mentioned in my last post. Or/and play around with it in your head, try different scenarios, fantasize (during your intimate time or not), and see what pleases you.

    My question is, if you aren't interested in men, and you are 100% sure you aren't, why would you pursue a relationship with one that isn't a friendship? Wouldn't you be happier in a relationship with a woman? If you picture yourself in the future, marrying a woman, and then marrying a man, what situation would better satisfy your desires?

    I think the core of your struggles, and that's why I'm insisting on it so much, is that you understand that romantic and sexual attractions are different things. They are not. And also, a friendship is not necessary shallower than other types of relationship. You may have a really deep connection with a man, without sex or romance. And that's perfectly fine. However, marrying someone to whom you aren't really attracted to doesn't make sense, to me. You may love who that person is, but, if you aren't attracted to that person, things will be much differently than if you were attracted to that person.

    My final point is: Don't you deserve a relationship that is fulfilling to you, including sexually?

    What do you think?
     
  13. Nickw

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    @jen4rd

    This has been a thought provoking thread for me. I've been married for 35 years. My wife is no longer interested in sex. She is interested in romance and we used to have an active sex life. So, by some definitions, my wife is not straight or gay or anything. Except she does have a strong romantic love for me. And, I, certainly still feel all the attractions I always felt for her. She just cannot feel it anymore. So, if she lost this, I wonder if some people never find it to start with? So, if you are bisexual, is it possible to not have a sex drive for part of your sexuality?

    I'm also wrestling with my own attractions. I have a boyfriend and I desire him and we have an active sex life. I feel a deep emotional bond with him. But, most other guys do, absolutely, nothing for me sexually. I fantasize about sex with men and when I am with a guy I am sort of disgusted with the whole thing. With the notable exception of this one guy I am with now. I have tried to be with other men and I fool around but it always feels like I am playing a part in a porn film or something.

    So. I don't question my bisexuality. I know I can love a man or a woman. But, for the most part, I don't care for sex with men.

    I wonder if you just don't find your boyfriend sexually attractive? Could it be that simple? That doesn't mean you cannot love him romantically. I mean that's sorta my marriage right now.
     
  14. Chiroptera

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    As I said before, there is no scientific evidence that romantic and sexual attractions are separated. See my last 2 posts for more details on my line of thought.

    In your case, considering you have been married for many years, there could be other factors involved in her losing interest in sex. And about other guys doing nothing for you sexually, it is pretty common for many people to only feel comfortable with sex with someone they already know well (most people feel more comfortable having sex with someone they knew well - which is pretty obvious, considering the intimacy and connection involved in that moment), so that may be something to consider too.

    If you haven't done so yet, feel free to open a separate thread to discuss your specific case. :slight_smile:
     
  15. Nickw

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    I apologize. I wasn't trying to hijack this thread. I was only curious if the OP could be bisexual with a low sex drive for part of her sexuality and not the other. And, I was trying to use an example in my life. My bad.
     
  16. Chiroptera

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    No worries. :slight_smile:
     
  17. Chip

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    And no one is trying to tell you otherwise for yourself. Given that we (EC) have somewhere between 10 and 20 times as many lurkers as we have member/posters, part of the focus is trying to walk the line between individual beliefs (which anyone is entitled to hold, no matter how consistent or inconsistent they may be with facts) and the factual information that is disseminated to people who may be reading.

    I wouldn't use the word "invalid", but I would say that, as with what you've stated, pretty much everyone credible in the field, (with the exception of a small-but-annoyingly-vocal group, who eschews any sort of validation/research/grounding/reality checking) along with all the research out there, recognizes that there's no such separation, and therefore, those labels don't have any scientific support.

    You've indicated otherwise, but provided nothing to show this is the case... and you won't be able to, because, as I have repeatedly said, there's zero to back up that idea.

    I mean... I can insist that there's a magical leprechaun in the sky that lives over my house, but only I can see him, and no one else knows he exists. And you can't disprove that. This is pretty much the same thing.

    That said, you're absolutely entitled to your beliefs, and the intent isn't to offend anyone, only to ensure that accurate information is disseminated.
     
  18. Chip

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    The staff (actually, another forum admin, not me) removed a post from jen4rd because it was attempting to justify her previous statements based on spurious articles from non-credible (i.e,. non-researched, non-peer reviewed, non-scientific) sources.

    The sources included a student LGBT group at a university, another article citing the student group, and two blogs offering up two authors' opinions. There were no citations to credible research whatsoever in any of the articles posted.

    The question was also raised about asexuals and the "validity" of asexuality. No one on the EC staff has ever questioned the existence of asexuality; it has been written about and studied extensively for 70+ years, and represents a sexual orientation in the same way that homo and heterosexuality do. However, (and this is a major caveat), true asexuality is rare. Unfortunately, the same annoyingly small-but-vocal groups have basically co-opted the term.

    Because asexuality is a sexual orientation the same as hetero and homosexuality, it is fixed and unchangeable in the same way the others are. And the unfortunate thing is, the co-opted definition is so loose (and utterly ungrounded in any credible research whatsoever) that it can basically be stretched to mean anything. One of the biggest problems with asexuality is that there is a very high comorbidity with mood disorders, especially anxiety and depression, and those diagnoses, by themselves, have been shown to suppress sexual desire and arousal. The resulting problem is that an awful lot of people who claim asexuality (about 60%, according to several of the studies I've read) also are identified with one of the above mood disorders.

    That's a fatal confound, as there's no way of knowing whether the asexual experience is a byproduct of the mood disorder (which can be easily addressed, and thus, sexual arousal/attraction will return), or whether it is, in fact, hardwired. This does not mean that asexuality doesn't exist, but it does indicate that many who self-describe as asexuals are likely instead people who are suffering from side-effects of depression or anxiety or other mood disorders, and thus, when the underlying mood disorders are addressed, the sexual attraction and arousal comes back in full force. Many EC members over the years have expressed frustration at self-identifying as asexual, only to later discover they had a mood disorder, and are then disappointed that they've lost years of their life when they could have been exploring relationships. This is one of the reasons we feel it is important to differentiate on this topic.

    On the issue of "aromantics"... given that there's no evidence supporting the idea of separation of sexual and romantic attractions, there therefore cannot be a separate (research validated) category called "aromantic". This, of course, doesn't stop people from labeling themselves that way, but in most cases, what's going on there is more a function of a mood or personality disorder (basically, a lack of vulnerability) that's getting in the way of feeling deep emotional connection.

    The staff's goals in discussing these issues is not to make people wrong. I can't say that often enough. Our organizational goals include the sharing of accurate information (i.e., high quality studies published in quality, peer-reviewed journals by credible professionals, or information that shares a wide consensus among professionals.) The importance of providing accurate information in helping people to make wise and thoughtful decisions about their lives should be obvious, and is something that EC's staff, admin team, and board hold as primary to our charitable mission. This puts us in conflict with other groups that don't place an emphasis on repeatable, reliable, consistent, validated information, but it is a conflict we are comfortable with, as, particularly in our current American political climate, truth and factual accuracy is increasingly important, and sadly less common than it once was.
     
    #38 Chip, May 2, 2019
    Last edited: May 2, 2019
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  19. GayTurtle

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    I find this thread and this topic in general very interesting.
    I'm not at all familiar with research on these types of issues, so can you clarify something about this for me? What would this evidence look like? What test would you do such that - given one result - you would conclude that some people's romantic and sexual attraction are separate, and that given a different result you conclude the opposite? It strikes me that such feelings (especially love and romantic attraction) are hard to properly quantify or measure, so I feel like an example here would make the argument a bit more tangible for me.
     
  20. Chip

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    Since I am not a specialist in the evaluation of study methodologies, I can't tell you precisely what methodologies researchers use in these cases. What I have seen in this type of work is usually qualitative research with larger sample sizes. In qualitative research, depending on the methodology employed, the researcher collects data typically through detailed interviews with a lot of questions that yield narrative data. The narrative data is then coded down into specific keywords or phrases that show up repeatedly, and those phrases are then interpreted to arrive at results. In methodologies such as Grounded Theory (one of the more common qualitative approaches), it starts without any sort of test or bias, which is nice because then the data speaks for itself, rather than attempting to prove a predetermined result.

    Remember, too, that as I said somewhere above, it's impossible to prove a negative per se, but what we can do is look to see what is observed, across large numbers of people, and then see if that data replicates consistently. It's been a bit since I looked at the research, but the last time several of the admin team members each looked into the studies, it was pretty clear that with an enormous volume of research on relationships, interactions, the nature of interactions, emotional connection, and various other things, there simply wasn't any evidence, anywhere, that indicated that romantic and sexual orientations appear separately or in conflict with one another.

    However, there are some things we can point to: The whole idea of so-called "romantic" orientation was never even mentioned until a few years ago, basically when a small but vocal group of folks started making a bunch of terms up, with absolutely nothing to back up their imagined terms, and perpetrating this stuff as fact. Thus, the idea that this separation could magically appear out of nowhere, when it had never existed before, in spite of the fact that relationships and connection and emotional and physical intimacy have been studied exhaustively for decades, in many different cultures... is simply preposterous. Genetic changes appear very, very slowly, and not over one generation. So it simply isn't plausible that this is a genetic thing that suddenly appeared. Nor is the tiresome claim, used to discount what we currently know, that homosexuality wasn't recognized for years valid either: once it was identified and studied, it was really only about 10 or 15 years until it was removed as a "disorder" from the DSM, and we have learned much since then and, again, studied these things extensively.

    Finally, when so-called "romantic" orientation is discussed, the definitions that people give for it are generally synonymous with the definitions that have for decades been used to describe emotionally intimate friendships (which have also been studied ad nauseum for decades.) And, prior to 8 or 10 years ago, before people started making all of this stuff up, people understood that deep connections with people, with no sexual desire or interest attached, was... emotionally intimate friendship. But it appears that somewhere along the line, someone decided that they didn't want to accept that they were gay, and so, instead of using the "bi" label that many people use while coming to terms with who they are, made up this business that there are separate romantic and sexual orientations as a way to avoid acknowledging and accepting that one is gay, even though there isn't a shred of evidence to support this idea. And someone picked it up, or posted it on a message board... and it took off. Not unlike the various false narratives that are spreading around and influencing elections.

    We have gotten to a place where nobody seems to care about objective truth and reality in much of anything in American society; the amount of blatant lying that goes on by elected government officials is unprecedented, as is the amount of blatantly false narratives regularly shared on social media. And likewise, there's an awful lot in social culture that is bought into even though there's almost nothing to support it. I don't think the orientation stuff was done for malevolent purposes, but most likely, simply to give someone an excuse to put off self-acceptance. But I do think it's important that people be told objective truth, rather than narratives someone made up, that have no basis in objective fact, research, scholarly study, or even consensus acceptance among the professional community.
     
    #40 Chip, May 3, 2019
    Last edited: May 3, 2019