Hello, My apologies for such a long post, but I guess some of my feelings just need to be poured out and explained as I feel them. Also, sorry for my stupid username. I really should have thought of something much better than the stupid one I came up with late and night while I was tired when signing up with the site. lol Anyway, I am (currently) a straight male in my 30s who loves and cherishes women dearly. I have always loved females from a very young age (since I was about 4-5 years old), but at sporadic times during my life, I have also had fantasies and urges to have a sexual experience with another male. These urges don't come often (relative to my attraction to women), but when they do, it can be quite insatiable. Both mentally and physically. I'll spare the details, but these urges and fantasies can be quite intense when they do come. I am currently having these urges to be with another male and my thoughts have me very aroused. However, I find it odd that I have never really been into gay porn at all, even when I have these urges and am very much in the mood. For whatever reason, the general imagery just doesn't get me aroused like watching/being with a female does. I only seem to have these urges when thinking about (maybe) one or two straight friends of mine. I also have two gay friends as well: one who I have never had sexual feelings for, and another who I do. He is blond, Swedish, in his 20s, muscular and hot AF (not for it to sound like some sort of "stereotype" or something, but that's what he is). I have known him for about 3 years now and we first met through a group of mutual friends. During our first time together, he was dressed in cosplay and our group of friends walked through town with him in full body paint, with his entire hot, hunky, muscular body painted from head to toe with his abs and ass showing the entire time. Ever since then, there have been times where I've had fantasies about having a sexual encounter with him. Fantasies about being in his hotel room and just having our way with each other. At times, I have these urges to be with him sexually, but he is also in a loving and committed relationship with his boyfriend, so I cannot pursue my fantasies with him out of respect for him and their relationship. So, it has been fairly sexually frustrating at times because of that. But that would never affect the friendship we have, so that's neither here, nor there. But part of what confuses me though is that I am not really aroused/attracted to gay porn, even when I am in the mood. I also don't see having a true relationship with another male, other than for a sexual one. So at times I wonder if this is just a "passing fancy" or if there is really something there that is a potentially lifelong attraction. Or is this something I just need to "get out of my system" to find out what this attraction is and what it really means going forward? Anyway, I seem to be babbling now, so I'm not sure what else to add. All I know is that I have these hot urges to be with another male and usually it is my gay friend that I have these sexual feelings for. I also have random feelings as to who it can and could be, and there are times when I just want to fool around with another guy. Just...someone. Oh, and I also have fleeting attractions to T-girls, as well as fantasies of possibly wearing women's panties (haven't yet though). I don't know what that has to do with anything at hand, but I thought I'd mention that for whatever it's worth. Anyway, thanks in advance for any words you can impart.
Welcome to EC. You don't say if you are currently in a relationship, but I'm guessing not since you've talked about respecting that your friend is in one. If you are not in a committed relationship, then you have the flexibility to experiment (safely).
If it doesn’t feel too awkward, I honestly wouldn’t have a problem trying something out with your friend. If you think it would be, definitely pursue it. I think it’d be a great experience, even if you decide you don’t like it you’ll clear up some confusion
I'm not currently in a relationship, but yes, I do respect their relationship enough to not go there. It's not about me and my needs, it's about them. But I'm sure you know what I mean. The only thing I forgot to mention in my initial post is that I am fairly demisexual, which for anyone reading who doesn't know what that is, it means that I (generally) require some kind of emotional connection to someone to feel sexually attracted to them. Especially when it comes to having sex. Which is partly why I've mostly only had feelings for my gay friend and a couple straight friends in the past. There is a certain closeness there. Whether for good or for bad, that's just the way I am, so it's not easy for me to just have an experience with someone, because I require something more than just physical attraction to have sex with them. So it can be a bit sexually frustrating in that sense. Well, my gay friend and his partner are married and monogamous. I would never pursue it with him, nor would I ever bring it up, because I don't want to harm the friendship we have, nor do I want to cause any problems within the relationship the two of them have. It's just not my place to do that. Regardless of my own feelings. I just can't.
Porn is a notoriously unreliable indicator of much of anything, especially for people for whom emotional connection is an important part of the equation. ( I tend to think the 'demisexual' label is pretty pointless, as it actually applies to probably half of the population.) There are an awful lot of men who are very much gay, but who aren't aroused by porn. What's usually a much more accurate indicator is masturbation fantasies. If you find that thinking about guys (let's say, the guy you described) is intensely arousing, much more so than thinking about girls, then that's a pretty strong indicator that there's some hardwired attraction there. What complicates things is the inherent denial mechanisms that come into play when we first consider thinking we might be other-than-straight. Our brains tend to reject information that comes in when that information challenges our existing schemas of information about any particular subject, so in this case, if we have the strong perception we're straight, our brain is going to put a bunch of energy rejecting anything that indicates otherwise until the information that contradicts current thinking is pretty overwhelming. This is discussed in the stages of loss (the processing of feelings associated with any major loss, in this case, loss of perception we're straight.) The stages are denial-anger-bargaining-depression-acceptance. During the bargaining phase, it's not uncommon to simultaneously acknowledge we have some same-sex feelings, but still hold onto the idea that we're straight; it's a coping mechanism. As we become more comfortable with the idea we may be other-than-straight, the denial slowly gives way, and either we realize that the attraction we thought we had to opposite sex isn't really there at all, or is tempered with same-sex attraction. So usually the best way is simply to explore. Masturbating thinking about different people in different sessions is a good way to start, and usually, you can get a pretty good idea from that. Then, if you do feel like there's significant same-sex attraction, exploring what it's like to have some sort of sexual experience with another guy would be the logical next step.
Sorry in advance for the length of my reply... Wouldn't porn be a part of masturbation fantasies though? Now that I think of it, and to be completely open about it, I have masturbated to gay porn before, but it is a very specific kind (fisting) and is directly relatable to the same fetish I have as it applies to women, so it's more of an extension of that than anything. When watching it, it has more to do with the actual act itself rather than the actual gender of it. With that said, I don't tend to fantasize about men hardly at all, other than people I have known. However, the urge and attraction is very much there when it happens. As far as being straight, bi, gay, etc., please correct me if I'm wrong, but I tend to think of those terms as something that is applied to someone who has had an actual sexual experience to confirm their orientation. I always tend to think of someone who wonders and/or fantasizes as being someone who is questioning/curious, no? For instance, I know I am currently straight, but I don't know if I am bi or gay, because I have still yet to have a sexual experience with another man to confirm my questioning and curiosity with it. I tend to think someone is not bi or gay (or whatever someone's potential orientation may be) until it is confirmed by having a sexual experience. Until then I'd say "curious" or "questioning", but I digress. I'm getting way off track... As for denial and a potential shift in my orientation, I am not struggling with this at all. I have zero guilt or hesitation about my sexual exploration as a person. The steps you mentioned are also not a concern for me whatsoever. I already went through all that on my own. Sadly, and to put it lightly, there was a time when I actually used to dislike the LGBTQ community a lot. So I already had to go through those steps to break down that barrier and free myself of any of the hate and prejudice I had against the community. I no longer have any of that, because I've already worked through those feelings and those steps for myself to overcome them. It's why I now have gay friends and cherish them as much as anyone else in my life. I no longer have to live with hate in my heart which is the best gift of all. But in regards to my own sexuality, if it turns out that I am bi or gay going forward, it doesn't matter to me at all. If I eventually have a sexual encounter with another man and I turn out to love it, and I then decide to identify as either being bi or gay from that time forward, I would have no hesitation or misgivings about it whatsoever. I am not the kind of person for denying, rejecting or feeling at all "guilty" about something that I would enjoy (if that so becomes the case). If I identify as being either bi or gay, it would be a non-issue for me because I am a very matter of fact person who does not make any apologies for being who I am as a person, and that applies to however I would choose to identify as. So on that front, I have no fears or anything else holding me back. I am who I am, no matter my orientation. As a side note though, and not to be combative, but I would have you kindly reconsider how you view the relevance of the term "demisexual". Just because it applies to (perhaps) half of the population, doesn't mean it does not hold merit. By the same logic, one could say the same thing about the term "straight", or being "male" or "female". The vast majority of us also identify as being "human", so does that mean it holds no merit, simply because it applies to an extremely large cross section of people? No, it does not. Everyone has a right to identify as something if the choose to...as it applies to them. These terms are words in the English language that help to describe ourselves and to convey ourselves to other people. Nothing more, nothing less. Again, not to sound combative, because I assure you that is not my intent with what I am saying, but I would be careful as to how to choose to dismiss how others may choose to identify themselves, and that applies to demisexuality. In doing so, it undermines how I choose to identify and express myself in how the meaning of that word applies to me as a person. Labels are more than just words though. They are just that: ways for people to identify. By the same token, it would not be fair of me to dismiss someone who identifies as gay, lesbian, trans, etc., because those are terms that speak to that individual's life experiences and allows them to identify in a way that is easily conveyable to others. This is no different for me when I say I am demisexual. Because I am. It is a part of who I am and it is how I identify as a person in regards to my own sexuality. Anyway, I need to stress again that I don't say those things to be combative or to rudely single you out, but I only say them as something to consider. But yes, I believe, in the end, this more than likely boils down to having a sexual encounter with another man to know what my own orientation truly is going forward. It's just been difficult for various reasons for me to explore to find that out I suppose.
Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. I was referring to masturbation fantasies that you create in your mind without using porn. Since many people mostly or exclusively use porn when masturbating, this means changing up your routine a bit to get a sense of things. Without going into a long explanation, I'd suspect that this isn't much of an indicator one way or another, which is why the suggestion above may be helpful. Nope. How many totally straight people knew they were straight before they had sex? Probably nearly all. How many of those totally straight people tried having sex with a same-sex person to confirm that they didn't like it? Probably very, very few. First, we separate porn and masturbation; the fantasies associated with masturbation without porn are what we're after here. Second, one can fantasize about anything. If you're totally straight, you can masturbate thinking about being with a guy, and it will do absolutely nothing for you. And if you're totally gay, thinking about a girl will do absolutely nothing for you. The challenge is... your conscious mind gets in the way, because nobody wants to be gay. Thus, your conscious mind often rejects experiences consistent with being gay. The stages of loss too, impact your ability to accept whatever our reality is... even when you are confident that you've already worked through that, because when one has truly worked through that, usually the answer is pretty clear. Then you would likely be one of the very first people on the planet to be that way. Nearly everyone has internalized issues with sexuality because of the society we grow up in, messages (conscious and unconscious) from parents, media, organized religion, etc. The issue is, most of these messages are completely unconscious, so what we think we know isn't necessarily all that's going on. Again, from a psychological perspective, for the most part, what you are describing above is pretty inconsistent with the way our minds process and work. I would be more inclined to say that either you don't have access to the stuff that's in the unconscious, or perhaps your ability to access emotions at all is somewhat limited. I'm not intending for that to sound remotely judgmental; it's more just that what you are saying is consistent with what many other people experiencing similar things have found as they went through their own process. Use the term if it works for you. My point is that we (well, at least, the profession and most ordinary people) don't have special words to describe people that are attracted to blonds, or intelligent people, or people who have love-at-first-sight (if you believe in that), because all of those are common experiences. Not an apples-and-apples comparison. Males and females are fundamentally different (gender variance and spectrum issues aside), while if we're talking about the role of how much someone needs to get to know someone to feel attraction, ... that exists, in some extent, on a spectrum, in everyone. There's nothing remotely special about wanting or needing to get to know someone to feel attraction. That said... what you have described above, in terms of the certainty with which you describe things about yourself, would actually be quite consistent with someone who has limited capacity to fully experience emotions, and it is typically those folks who identify with the 'demisexual' concept. The difference is... once those folks work on the underlying issues that impact the emotional sensation/expression, generally, they notice a pretty significant change in how they experience people, because they are more emotionally open. Again, not a judgment, not telling you what you in particular may be experiencing, only what we typically see in working with a lot of people in these populations. This is a difficult, razor-thin line that we (ECCS) organizationally constantly have to try to walk. One of our most core values as a public charity focused on education is the accuracy of the information we provide and disseminate. And the 'demisexual' term is not widely accepted, and, as described above, appears at least by some indications, to be more of a psychological issue than a sexual identity issue. (There's another, even more obscure term, called 'lithrosexual', which is sort of a stronger version of demisexual, which is very clearly a mental health disorder, but the folks who promote unrecognized labels seem to believe it exists, as well.) This is not to devalue those who use it, as that's a personal choice. But it is difficult to both support someone's choice to use a term that is not credibly accepted by the majority of people in the field, and stay true to our organizational goals to ensure that accurate information is shared with the people who come here for information. As I said above, by all means, continue to use the term if you find it useful for you. If that's something you feel you need to do to know for sure, then there's nothing wrong with that. With that said, I don't think there are many gay folks who would agree with that position.
Hi there! First off, welcome to Empty Closets! Accepting yourself, or even just entertaining the idea that you might not be straight (depending on your social milieu, can be upsetting and worrisome at times. While you might have worked on some of the aspects of acceptance of yourself and the larger community, from your response, it seems that you might need to do some more reflection and thinking about what your sexual orientation is. Acceptance comes in different forms, but the kinds of acceptance you are looking for it the one where you can stand in front of a mirror and say out loud to yourself that you are [insert sexual orientation], and feel good with it. One question you could try asking yourself is, when you see other guys either walking past you, or sitting in a coffee shop, bar, restaurant, etc... do you ever think, 'hey, this guy is cute or attractive?' If you find yourself thinking that a lot, and you think about it for an extended period of time, whether or not a guy was cute, attractive, that is something to start looking deeper into it. Similarly, have you ever felt attracted to another guy, where you had a hard time keeping your thoughts away from it? In order to know whether you are bi, gay, or straight you don't need to have sex with the opposite or same gender. There is more to a confirmation to one's sexual orientation than having sex with another person. It goes deeper than that, and it is something that you can figure out by taking note of the 'little things,' that at times go unnoticed until you become aware of them. This could include for example seeing yourself with another guy/woman walking hand in hand, feeling a strong attraction to another guy and/or girl to the point where you can't take your eyes off them, etc.... sometimes, what can help, is to trying to go on a date with somebody that you find attractive, and see what happens. If it clicks, you have one more piece of the puzzle in your hand. For the moment, I wouldn't worry about labels, or trying to attach a label to what you are feeling or the thoughts you might have; labels often tend to box one in, and it could lead to you not gaining the full picture as it were, which at this point would only be a disadvantage. If you would like to look into possible resources that could be useful to you, or would like to chat about things in private, you are more than welcome to message me as well.
*sighs* Okay, I'll give this another shot... Well, as I tried explaining earlier (I had a previous post that was rightfully taken down that had a couple profanities from me in it due to my own frustration with a previous response), I am not struggling with the possibility of identity changing at all. Nor am I worried about the possibility of being bi or gay as being "upsetting" or "worrisome", nor am I worried about being "accepted" by others. In any way, shape or form. If it turns out I am gay, I would fully embrace it, and anyone who doesn't like it can take a walk, because I wouldn't care. Whether I am straight, bi or gay, any one of those orientations has ZERO hesitation or "shame" for me. AT ALL. Me being straight or gay doesn't change a damn thing because I'll fully embrace and love myself all the same. I make NO apologies as a person for anything I personally like and enjoy. Ever. ZERO. NONE. I know that may be hard for some people here to understand (which was a part of my frustration in my previous post that was removed, despite my best attempt to explain why), because I am sure there are A LOT of people who come to this site who may struggle with those things, but I can assure you, I am not one of those people at all. Again, if it turns out I'm gay, great! Then I'll know! But anyone that didn't like it would have no place in my life and I make NO apologies for that. REGARDLESS of whatever sexual orientation I am. I don't waste my time with people who don't value me or won't accept me for who and what I am (whatever that is to be). I never been the kind of person that looks for acceptance from others. I've always marched to the beat of my own drum, and that applies to my own sexuality and my own wants, needs and desires. That's the thing though, I have very strong urges at times to be with my gay friend that I mentioned. However, these urges don't come anywhere near as much as thinking of women. However, there was also another very recent occurrence that happened that I completely forgot to mention in my initial post that actually lead me to be here (can't believe I forgot to mention it). I'm on a different forum and I met a guy in his early 30s. We always chatted through the site's messaging system and after getting to know each other, the nature of our conversations tended to be sexually charged. But it was always about women and always very respectful. I feel that last part is very important to mention. However for a few nights we got deep into to talking about sex with women, what we like, our experiences, etc. But then it progressed to him suddenly coming onto me, and he said he wanted to eat my load. I was surprised at first because I didn't expect that from him (I didn't know he was bi at the time), but I was immediately turned on. I was already horny talking about women, so I was already sort of in that headspace, but when he mentioned he wanted to eat my load, I flipped to wanting his cock in me like a light switch. We then progressed into text roleplaying and telling each other what we wanted and how we were doing each other. It was all so sudden and out of the blue, and it was hot AF. We wound up masturbating to each other and it was awesome. For the next couple of days I was messaging him, but he seemed to become fairly distant. I was raring to get into it (him) again, but after a couple days he told me he got weirded out by the experience and then he eventually ghosted me. But that's beside the point I am trying to make. I mention these things because despite these urges and that experience (it was my first time messing around with a guy like that), I just don't really seem to have any attractions to guys I see when I'm out and about. Like literally none. Same thing goes for gay porn, as I mentioned before. As well as male/female porn. I have no attraction for the males in them. I honestly can't event think of a time when I saw another guy (other than my gay friend) who I felt sexually attracted to, which is partly why this is a bit puzzling for me. I have these urges, yet I don't have any attractions to other males outside of my gay friend and the recent online experience I had. Again, all this has nothing to do with me being "worried" about my orientation at all (again, please read above), but more to do with not knowing what my orientation is, because despite these urges with a couple specific people, I just have never had any attractions to other men, nor have I had any masturbation fantasies outside of a couple people I have met/known. It's just confusing, because in my 38 years of living, I don't have any attractions to guys when I'm out and about. Not really. It's funny though, these urges seem to come sporadically. They'll come on hot and heavy for part of the day or about a day or so (and I'll love it during that time too), but then it goes away completely and I won't have any urges or thoughts about it for weeks or even many months at a time. It's generally very fleeting. Yeah, that's a weird one. My attraction seems to be more of a purely sexual encounter instead of a relationship. Which is also very odd for me, because I value relationships deeply and I profoundly want a relationship with a woman more than you'll ever know. But then I also have fleeting urges (yet strong ones when they happen) to have sex with another male. But as far as the concept of a relationship with another male, it's never been an attraction or a thought for me. And to be completely clear: this isn't due to some form of "suppression", but more because the idea of a relationship with another male just doesn't appeal to me at all. It's purely just a sexual thing. Fair enough about not labeling myself though. It's just a bit of a head scratcher more than anything. I'll get it all sorted out one way or another, regardless of whatever orientation I wind up being. Okay, I'll do that...
So, when I first got on Empty Closets I was heterosexual. And I was raised in a bit of a bubble where my family, college, career, etc. would have been fine if I were gay. But then I get to middle age and there is something there in me that says “I’m here. Pay attention NOW.” That was bisexuality. And I’m confused, not because it is shameful but because heterosexual was working. So I think I get what you are saying. In my case I did some online studying, such as here. I read other people’s stories. I convinced my wife I should go to a therapist — and that was the biggest and final bit that helped me embrace that I’m bisexual. Very quickly. I get it about needing to know a guy for a while to have anything deeper be possible. Looking back, my memory serves up two friends from middle school who were special to me in some way I couldn’t quite fit into my “I like girls” reality. My current fantasies don’t work unless I also imagine a relationship/friendship that gives the context some intimacy. You are not alone. I hope you find the resources that help you figure it out. For me, therapy was key — it didn’t tell me who I am, but it was a setting where who I am could come out of my own mouth, guided by the right homework and a trusting atmosphere. I’m glad you are here.
Yeah, I just have no shame or reservations about whatever my orientation is at all, regardless of whatever it's going to be. I honestly don't care what others would feel about it. Nor do I care about what others would think of me if I am to be bi or even gay. I'm strong AF as a person, so I'd sincerely give zero f***s about what anyone had to say about my life. lol I'm glad to hear you've come to a better place in regards to yourself though. It may still seem confusing at times, but I am a true believer that things eventually find their way toward what they need to be in regards to one's own truth as a person. You will find that place and you will be at peace with it. Just live life toward your own truth and make no excuses for who you are. I suppose I am "lucky" in one sense in that I am single and not in a relationship (even though I want to be in one SO bad). I think that would be the only situation where I may personally feel somewhat "guilty" (for the lack of a better term), because I would be afraid of my wife or girlfriend leaving me, as well as any pain I might cause her by her feeling "betrayed" or "neglected" by my own revelation as a person. So I can very much appreciate that aspect of it. Again, I consider myself lucky in that respect because me being single allows me to figure my own orientation out so I can find out what a relationship will entail into the future. It sounds like the two of you may be working through these things together, so that is a good thing. I genuinely hope for all the best for the both of you. Yeah, that's the odd thing though, is that I very much require a connection of some kind to have sex in particular. Which is why I developed feelings for my gay friend and with that person online after getting to know each other over time. But the thing is that I don't want a relationship with another male. It just doesn't appeal to me in any way, personally. My attraction is purely a sexual thing for me, which is kind of odd, because that concept is very foreign to me otherwise. Oh, I know I'm not alone. I know I am FAR from the only person who is questioning their sexual orientation. But it's okay, because again, I don't need to feel a kinship or acceptance from others to feel right with myself. Again, regardless of whatever my orientation is to be going forward. But ugh! Please, please don't take this personally, because this applies to me only, but I am not a fan of therapists and psychiatrists. I know that they serve a very important role and can be helpful for a lot of people, but they are not for me. For various unrelated reasons, I have seen several in the past and not a single one of them were ever of any help for me. I overcame a SEVERE, soul-crippling anxiety disorder on my own that afflicted me during my teens and early 20s. I have always looked toward the experience of life for answers and have always relied on myself to sort things out, and I have never gone wrong by doing so. Again, therapists serve a very important role for many people, and I am glad yours has been helpful, but it's just not for me. I'd much rather be on a site like this instead. Thanks. I am too. A week ago I got very frustrated with someone and I was set to leave the site, and even asked for my account to be deleted, but I'm glad I stayed. Thank you for your reply.
Hi there, I have read through your response(s) a couple of times, and I started finding it curious, that you are emphasizing over and over again that you are okay with whatever the result is going to be. Among all the threads that I have read on members going through a similar experience as you are, your responses stand out for the emphasis on being okay with whatever your sexual orientation turns out to be. I wonder, have you tried standing in front of a mirror, and say out loud to yourself: 'I am questioning, and I am fine with whatever the results are.' That said, not caring about what others might think, or saying "I don't care what other people think," is a red flag in itself because it is very rarely that we don't care what others think about us or how they perceive us. At some level, we do care, even if it is not spoken. Have you mentioned to your gay friends that you are questioning or wondering about your sexual orientation? If you are okay with whatever the result is in the end, then maybe just letting the flow take over, would be best. Sometimes, thinking too much about things, can prevent us from actually finding the answer we are looking for. That said, and depending on where you live, it would be worthwhile for you to attend a LGBTQ+ support group as that could give you an opportunity to ask the deeper questions that could provide you with some of the answers over time. Of course, one shouldn't read too much into events such as these, but I don't think it is actually far off the mark of what you are trying to uncover. It might be worthwhile for you to ask yourself some questions that would allow you to dig a bit deeper into your feelings on what happened, but also on how it ended. It is one event, but in conjunction with your attraction to your gay friend, and the fact you want an intimate experience or feel you need it, there is likely more to it, even if they come sporadically. Related, and even though your attractions to your gay friend are based on wanting to have a sexual encounter with him, have you ever tried to answer the question: why? Why do you want that? In addition, what are you hoping to gain from it? Hypothetically speaking, say it happens, and your gay friend would say to you that he likes you in a romantic way,' what would you say?
