General News Ben Afflack calls out Bill Maher and Sam Harris on Islam

Sorry buddy but you're presupposing western thought processes on what is and has been a theocratic society for almost a milennia . Your argument is fallatious at the outset . And " social contract " ? With whom and where exactly ? Who is anyone to presume that our social standards are the same as anyone else's ? I don't think anyone gets to be that presumptuous . If you're simply saying that mass killing under the guise of religion is wrong or is being unfairly labelled as such , great . It doesn't alter the facts as they appear to me . I, who have m e blood and don't share the majority faith ( and am identified as such immediately by other m e simply by my name ) can see that these arguments are as I stated already , innocuous at best ; arrogant at their worst.

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@levaithan ( try not to be too Hobbesian dude)

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Fuck, I so dig it when people who come from basically lily white backrounds attempt to understand i e, talk down or down play , anything that is alien to their circumstances and evirons. Which would basically be almost everything that isn't culturally relevant to them . This is not a slam against any specific person here but it's a glaring observation on my part .

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< is the whitest dude alive , so Ye , self critique too, sorta ....

 

Okay, then. I understand that. Since I was referring to homophobia in people and you were referring to it in texts, that might be the source of the issue.

 

That is a very good point, it seems that governments are obsessed in giving minorities special treatment. Now they are trying it with gay people, and I will fight against it. Equality not special treatment!

The circumstances in Birmingham are extremely shocking, and more people need to stand up against radicalisation of schools.

One of the reasons this behaviour happens is due to the amount of people who ignore it or simply defend this indefensible behaviour. If Muslims and non-Muslims kicked up a fuss then things would change, but everyone is scared to do that.

 

What makes anyone think they'd be safe in self proclaimed Christian countries ( Russia has aligned itself with the Orthodox Church again. A bastion of free thinking )? Most of the countries that claim to have THE god at their helm are in no way pro gay.
The m e nation that 1/2 of my forebears come from , boasts the largest Christian population in the m e. They would string up gay dudes quicker than most of the Muslims if they were in charge of the nation . And as far as using jews as an example . They have one state And , I m o , have done their best to try and affirm equal rights for most(Palestinians notwithstanding ) but this has only been achieved to its limited success because of what they (Israelis ) learned about nations and peoples thinking together , even under the guise of God , can afflict on the minority .

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@king you apparently have no clue what mass thinking over loooong time periods can do to a people . That, and you must be applying western standards of " fuss" where they don't applly .

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Ok I'm done after this ,
wtf do you think homophobia comes from when ingrained in people but through the these texts?

 

I'm with Maher and Harris on this one. If liberals can criticize Christianity, Judaism, etc etc, why not criticize Islam? Nobody said all Muslims are bad people. I think that the majority are peaceful people just trying to live their lives. But that religion needs to go through a reformation pronto. I've often criticized the Right Wing for its hypocrisy, but it's time for me to criticize the Left Wing now for the same reasons.

You can't call yourself a liberal who is for gay rights and gender equality while supporting Palestine and condemning Israel, for example. Under Hamas and Fatah, Palestine doesn't allow Jews into its territory, persecutes women, religious minorities, and people in the LGBT community. Israel is the only country in the Middle East where Arab women can vote, where people of all religions are allowed to practice freely, and where gay and transgender people are allowed to be themselves. Of course, there are the ultra-Orthodox who disagree with this, but most Israelis don't share those views.

You can't call yourself a liberal and criticize Christianity and Orthodox Judaism for misogyny and homophobia, but then not do the same for Islam because it's "racist"--which is ridiculous because Islam isn't a race.

By not acknowledging that Islam has problems, we're giving strength to the extremists and not supporting the moderate majority who often times don't have a voice or power. What led to the Reformation and the Renaissance? Criticism of how Christianity (mainly Catholicism) was practiced in those days, and the subsequent search for a solution. What led to Reform and Conservative Judaism? Criticism of Orthodox Judaism, and how it wasn't modern, and the subsequent search for a solution. What will lead to Islam reforming and becoming more modern and moderate, by and large? Criticism of how many countries in the Middle East and other places (Indonesia, Malaysia, etc) practice it like we're still in the 7th century, and subsequent search for solution, by way of adapting modern ways of thinking (gender equality, LGBT rights) into the religion.

 

Well said.
I think that this is part of the problem. People are so scared of offending others that they won't speak out about the things that need to be spoken about.

 

Pakistan is not the Middle East--it's South Asia. And its populace isn't Arab. Iran also is not an Arab country, so "not allowing Arab women to vote" doesn't apply to them either.

I don't agree with the other things that Harris has said that you brought up above. But in this case with Maher, I think he was right. And Islam actually, in these days, is more violent and has more to do with terrorism than Judaism or Christianity. Once again, I'm NOT saying all Muslims are evil; I know that most, especially in the West, are peaceful people. I'm also NOT saying that there are no extremist Jews or Christians. But those two religions have already gone through reform, and for the most part, don't have as many issues. Islam has not reformed yet, so of course there will be more barbaric aspects of Islam than the other two Abrahamic religions.

Also, you make it out like it's a bad thing that peaceful moderate Arab Muslims and Christians swear allegiance to Israel in order to serve in the military and government there. They should, given that's the country of their birth or where they were raised/chose to live. Also, look this up: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/...alem-arabs-prefer-israel-to-a-palestinian-sta

As for you saying "nobody said Islam doesn't have problems"...sadly, that's exactly what many left-wing people act like. Anytime someone criticizes Islam, the left-wingers shift the focus to the wrongs of Christianity, or brand the person as racist.

 

In a discussion about Islam, it's pretty telling that only Arabs feature in your thinking, Lovethemdudes.

 

Also, please tell me exactly how left-wingers are ignoring Islam's issues and cite a discussion in which the focus was turned into a criticism of Christianity on the behalf of Islam.

And note that Mulisms are not apolitical nothings with no identity beyond Islam; Muslims can be left-wing and right-wing and still pro-Islam, as believers in secular, free countries or as Islamists. Reducing Muslims to being nothing but their religion (or in this case, refusing to look at Islam outside of a dreadfully inadequate understanding of Arabia) is extraordinarily ignorant and paints them as politically identical and subject wholly to the politics of Western non-Muslims.

 

It has been well documented that Islam has imposed Sharia law in some places of the UK. This growing trend along with most Muslims failing to call out ISIS should cause anyone pause.

 

Try again:

Muslims Enforcing Sharia Law on the streets of London - YouTube

My Hometown Fanatics: Stacey Dooley Investigates (Muslim Extremists - EDL - Luton) - YouTube

Islamic Sharia Law Comes to (Not so Great anymore) Britain - YouTube

Muslim threatens man filming street preaching Islam in England with death.mp4 - YouTube

 

Why can't we just call out extremists in every religion and not lump everyone who is the same religion into labels the entire group is supposed to wear? I've met quite a few followers of Islam who are very progressive and have fully condemned people like the Islamic State, as well as Christians who denounce Westboro and Jewish people who denounce some of the horrible things the Israeli government has done to the Palestinian people.

That's all I'm going to say on this, though.

 

How are any of those links more than examples of individuals?

You have literally said that the UK is being subjected to Sharia Law in some regions. If you can't find a source that says that a) Sharia supporters have effectively taken over regional or national governance or b) they've influenced non-Muslim politicians and the courts to legislate and draw cases on Sharia Law, then it's absolute rubbish.

When you say "well-documented", it generally should be accompanied by several reliable sources, the majority written, and exemplifying exactly what you said. Nobody is denying that there are extremist Muslims in Britain or the world but that's not the claim you made.