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Being trans without dysphoria?

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by LonestarConnie, Jun 26, 2014.

  1. Nychthemeron

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    because

    Legitimate reason? Probably not. But people do it anyway. It's not like anyone could stop them. We can't tell if they're actually trans or not.
     
  2. KyleCats

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    Because it isn't. Read Just Jess' post. Especially this part-

    Hormones have a purpose. They have a function. They are not made up innate things that do nothing.

    This idea that gender is ~*just*~ a social construct needs to die. Is social dysphoria a thing? Yes. Does it stem from how a culture defines and views gender? Yes. But it is so, so, so much more than that.

    Do you know that female lions prefer male lions with very full and dark manes? Do you know that it is the testosterone in male lions that give them full and dark manes? Lion culture says dark mane = manly man. But it was driven by sex hormones. Human culture is not so different when it comes to certain characteristics in genders, because gender DOES have physical characteristics. That's the reason we need to transition. We see ourselves and we are not what we are meant to be. We do not feel the way we are meant to feel. Hormones are telling us lies.

    Sure, there are people who are okay without medically transitioning, but I don't think they are the ones hurt by the "gender is a social construct!" mantra. I know we all want to be fuzzy bunny glitter and sparkles let's all hug about gender identity and expression and all, but let's not ignore science.
     
  3. Hexagon

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    Yes it does. Clearly not to you, but I don't see why it's your business telling people whether or not their reasons for transition are valid. Social dysphoria can be just as powerful as physical, and it can be impossible to pass or to be viewed as 'normal' for some people without hormones and/or surgery.

    A rather excellent example: I'm getting bottom surgery, despite the fact that I'm not dysphoric anymore.
     
  4. Nychthemeron

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    KyleCats:

    I was always bewildered on why a lot of the transgender community felt the need to transition, even with the "gender is social construct" mentality. I guess that just answered my questions.

    But, can you (or anyone else) elaborate on something? You say that gender has physical characteristics - what's different from the physical characteristics of sex? People attach gender to sex all the time, but aren't they different?
     
  5. justjade

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    You need gender dysphoria because if you don't have that, then you're cis-gendered, but I don't believe you need to feel any significant discomfort with your body. There's nothing really concrete about gender. You are what you know in your heart that you are.
     
  6. Nychthemeron

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    Does anyone consider cisgender cross dressers, drag queens, etc. to be apart of the trans community?

    Not transgender. Just trans.

    And, um, my rambling on the first page is a little bit... outdated. I'm pretty much in the confused zone again. I hope you guys don't mind my awkward waddling.
     
  7. justjade

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    This is a good question. I've never thought about it before. I guess I would consider them part of the trans community since they have different gender expressions and might be doing so because they're subconsciously genderfluid or something. What I think I'm trying to say is that I wouldn't write them off as 'not trans'.
     
  8. Acm

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    I don't really think cis crossdressers are trans...I mean they have a different gender expression than most cis people but they're more gender nonconforming than trans
    That's just my opinion though and I have nothing against crossdressing :slight_smile:
     
  9. Nick07

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    I thought trans folk here kept telling people that they were what they thought they were. Now it seems that there are some criteria a newbie has to meet to be allowed to the club.

    Also, I was under impression that being trans (=transgendered for me) doesn't mean you aim for the transition. That would be "transsexual". IMHO
     
  10. I don't see how it matters?

    I say this all the time.
    If someone experiences their identity differently than you experience yours, does it affect you? Does it invalidate how you feel about yourself if other people feel a different way about their own selves?
    I think honestly the answer will be no every time.

    We all tend to be protective of our identity words, when in truth, we'd be hard pressed to get together a group of people who experience that identity the same way.

    Besides, I thought trans was an umbrella term for lots of gender minorities, not just transgender in the binary sense. There are a lot of ways to not be cis, and I don't think that a lack of dysphoria needs to preclude anyone from sharing that umbrella.
     
  11. Acm

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    A lot of trans people don't transition, it's not a requirement, and they're still trans. Some people can't transition for financial or personal reasons, and other simply don't feel like they need to and that's okay, they're still trans.
     
  12. Nick07

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    So, why are they required to be dysphoric to be trans? (according to some posts in this thread)
     
  13. Acm

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    People can have dysphoria and still not want to transition. It's a personal choice. I can't speak for everyone else in the thread though this is all just my opinion. Also I think social dysphoria counts
     
  14. alex3191

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    This is interesting, everyone seems to see this a little differently. here is how i see it.. I came to the conclusion i was trans because of body and sex dysphoria but since that is starting to ease off (hopefully for good) im not so sure im trans anymore. if I have no body and sex dysphoria then to me that just means im a tomboy and i hate the expectations and role of my sex but im under no obligation to follow them so i won't. If i was feeling dysphoric over a body part i had because of what sex i am and changing that would stop the dysphoria then i would consider myself trans but if I didn't have dysphoria then why change the body with hormones and surgery? So that's how i see it but if someone doesn't have dysphoria and they transition anyway and are happy then good for them but im finding it hard to understand what their reason for transitioning would be if its not to fix dysphoria. Can any non dysphoric trans people explain it to me please? I want to understand it from your point of view.
     
  15. Just Jess

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    You know I think the argument this thread started is bringing a lot of good ideas out from all sides.

    I think Nick has a really good point. You can't see inside someone else's head, or know their reasons for transitioning or not transitioning, or in any other way stepping outside of gender norms. Any of us can only say whether we ourselves are trans. I should never ever tell someone else they are trans or not trans, even when they want me to. Especially then; this really is something that requires no shortcuts introspection.

    I like where I feel like Hexagon was going too. We have in the past had a lot of ideas - "transition or die" for instance - that I feel have done a lot of harm. I don't think you should have to wait for any condition to make you that miserable before you do something about it. Focusing on the positives and where you want to be with your life too, not just dysphoria :slight_smile:

    My own point was, I have my problems, and my solutions. And I do need safe places to talk about them. Any of us that has anything about us that makes us not fit neatly in a gender bucket, is someone I am happy to show solidarity with, and happy to share the word "transgender" with :slight_smile: Anyone who wants to pick up that particular flag and walk next to me, the more the merrier. I'm happy to let my rainbow flag fly and show solidarity with people that get crap because of their sexuality too.

    But there are people out there with problems just like mine, and we do need to have our own voice. So that's why I also like what KyleKats posted. There have been ideas for decades about how to deal with people like me that are just as harmful as "transition or die". The fact is, I have some problems that are nature, and some problems that are nurture. Saying that gender is a total social fiction is I think a great way to get most people to realize just how much of gender is arbitrary and malleable. A lot of it us, and completely unfair. I am a businesswoman myself, and I went back into the closet for a job recently - well a closet, I'm positive a lot of people just assume I'm a gay man, but it's still not me being completely honest - which is something I would not have to do if we did not have the gender stereotypes we have. But to me, that "gender is fiction" idea is wrong. It is asking me to side with some of my problems against some of my other problems. I'd rather just solve all of them, work with those parts of me I can't change and no longer want to instead of against them, and move on to things that actually matter to me, like my nonprofit business or learning how to play the guitar on Saturdays.
     
  16. looking for me

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    BINGO!!!! it's a spectrum, not everybody sits on the same "shade"
     
  17. An Gentleman

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    Well, if I was in constant agony, which I am not, things would go to hell pretty quickly.
    I think that the reason people are having this conversation at all is confusion as to what "trans" actually means. What is indisputable, though, is that all transsexual people have some form of physical dysphoria. HRT might help social dysphorics some, but I honestly can't see bottom surgery helping them out at all. If we want to keep "transgender"/"trans" as the umbrella term, then dysphoria wouldn't be a requirement. The physical condition of gender dysphoria should be a requirement for SRS, and should also be considered for HRT.

    While we shouldn't try to bar social dysphorics and NBs* from all medical procedures, "don't question someone's identity, ever" isn't really a good philosophy, either. If people are being "transtrenders" and basically making a mockery of being trans, neutral pronouns, and the like for attention, we need to put our foot down and stop them. These "trenders" tend to spread viewpoints such as "gender is a social construct!" or "gender is a choice!"

    You can see why that doesn't fly, right?

    Tl;Dr: I generally agree with the "trans-medicalist" side, but the word Trans is there for more than just transitioning people; it's there for crossdressers, NBs, GQs, and others as well, so my view is "transsexual people need dysphoria, or physically transitioning could be a really bad choice for them".

    *Yes, I know that there are nonbinaries with GD.
     
    #37 An Gentleman, Jun 28, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2014
  18. Nick07

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    Hmm, the problem is, who will decide who is trans and who is trender?
     
  19. An Gentleman

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    I suppose most of the trenders will sort themselves out.
    Trends aren't permanent, after all, and transtrenders, along with other (stupid) things such as "kalossexuals"* and "transethnics", are very likely to move on and leave the trans people to clean up their mess.

    I'd say the "true trans" people are the ones who stick it out and don't make up a ton of new genders, rules, or even sexualities. I don't think the trans community needs too many rules, though. Gender = gender, you see, and our "rules", if we have any, should reflect that. No need to make a ton of metaphorical hoops to leap through.

    *Let's face it, "kalossexual" probably has something to do with Pokémon X & Y.
     
  20. soupycampbell

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    Some type of gender dysphoria is necessary to be trans. How is it possible to call yourself trans if you are comfortable in your body and how you are seen socially? I also kind of feel like some of these people who keep making up new genders out of no where are transtrenders (I don't mean NB or GQ or GF). Being a trans person is not about being a special snowflake. It's about finding that connection from mind to body. Rather that means presenting as your true gender socially and/or transitioning. But to be trans there has to be some sort of disconnection that needs to be connected.