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Arospectrum Awareness Week

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Ali6132, Feb 15, 2016.

  1. Sean12

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    Thats sounds good :slight_smile:
     
  2. larkcarmen

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  3. Sean12

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    :thumbsup:Trying to find a specific label just stresses me out
     
  4. Euler

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    First, I don't think you have actually read what has been written in this thread before. No one is saying that asexuality as orientation doesn't exist. What is being criticized is the claim that there is a whole spectrum of asexuality and aromanticism with all kinds of fancy niche labels. A person may lack sexual drive or desire to romantic relationships but this can be caused by multiple reasons, not just asexuality. It is potentially harmful for a young person if they just accept one label because it seems to fit them while what they are experiencing might be caused something else, potentially serious such as depression or hormonal imbalance. It's OK to label yourself however you feel and there is no criticism about that but once you start making generalized claims and fudging what we know with speculations we have a problem. To make good informed decisions people need good information.

    Second, you don't seem to get how proofing in the scientific context works. Because things are generally hard or impossible to disprove from existing the burden of proof is on the person who is making the claim, not on those suspecting the validity of the claim. If I make a claim that there is an invisible magical teapot orbiting Saturn that cannot be detected by any ordinary means it's up to me to prove that there is one, not up to you to disprove it. I cannot shift the burden of proof to you by saying that you are free to disprove the invisible magical teapot because it is virtually impossible to disprove.
     
  5. GenderSciFi

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    Soooo what a nice thing to do in an AWARENESS WEEK: fighting about the right of existence of your label with people who don't fall under that label.

    Yay to science, yay to hegemonic discourse in the LGBTIQA+ community. Maybe some day science is going to cure me of my delusions and I'm going to realize I'm actually a gay dude in denial.
    Or maybe you're going to realize that us people who want to discuss our forms of A(Romanticism) and A(Sexuality) are NOT MAINLY CONCERNED WITH SCIENTIFIC PROOF OF OUR IDENTITIES. We also don't care about your capacity to understand or scientifically categorize aspects of our lives.

    We. Just. Want. To. Discuss. Our. Experiences. Please. Will you let us do that in peace?

    Whew, this is exhausting.
     
  6. Loveislife

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    And what does it even matter if people mislabel themselves? Maybe some people will find out later that they aren't what they thought they were. Ok, good for them. I don't think it is harmful to incorrectly think you are asexual/aromantic while your feelings are really caused by depression or whatnot. You may actually feel you like an asexual/aromantic for a period of time, and I believe people are able to recognize changes in their feelings on their own if they're not really just that.. Sexual attraction and romantic attraction are strong enough for that. There are lots of gay individuals who incorrectly identify as bi first and that isn't that much of a big deal either right...

    ---------- Post added 24th Feb 2016 at 10:18 AM ----------

    Long story short: who cares about labels. Just do what feels right for you to do and label yourself as whatever you want to label yourself. Labeling yourself incorrectly isn't harmful to yourself and others when you stay true to your feelings. No need to be rude because you think it is very important that people label themselves correctly.
     
  7. Euler

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    I'm speaking from a personal experience here. You may ask what is the harm. Well, the potential harm is this. When I reached puberty and it didn't come with the expected sexual interest I was puzzled and assumed that's the way I am. Then someone told me that I must be an asexual and to me it sounded logical because I seemed to fit the description.

    Now, I don't know if I am genuinely asexual and I'm still trying to figure that out. Since learning that I most likely have chronic depression (diagnosis pending) and that one of its symptoms is lack of sexual or romantic interest, it starts to look possible that I'm not asexual after but just having asexuality as a result of the depression. Had I not settled with the label I was offered and given back in the high school I might have gone to a doctor to find out why is that I'm not feeling particularly sexual. This might have hastened me receiving appropriate help for my depression much much sooner. Now I was for more than 10 years depressed without realizing it and I feel that I could have used that time much better.

    My concern is that there are a lot of people like me. For example, depression is not always obvious even to the person suffering from it. If symptoms of depression are brushed off without properly inspecting the root cause of them this kind of things tend to happen. It's a bit like telling a person doubting their sexual orientation that it's probably just a phase or caused by childhood trauma. Reading this forum I don't think a lot of people who have been in denial about their true orientation for the first 30-40 years of their life are particularly happy about their own mislabel so mislabels can be very much harmful.

    Genuine persistent asexuality exists but it is exceedingly rare. If you are experiencing "symptoms" of asexuality the chances are that it's caused by something else than genuine asexuality. A friend of mine (girl) lacks sex drive but she was not always like that. She lost it after years of sexual and emotional abuse. That's not an orientation.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not a sexuality advocate. I think that people's sex drive is a source of more trouble than pleasure in general. Personally, I would be really disappointed if my sex drive went up from non-existent to anywhere near normal levels. Being preoccupied with sex and being frustrated from not having it is not something I imagine I would like to experience. There are so many other wonderful things in life that I would rather concentrate other than sex. If there was a pill to temporarily shut down sex drive I would take it without hesitation if after taking care of my depression my sex drive "normalized".
     
  8. C P

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    Wait...what? Where did I talk about someone claiming asexuality as an orientation doesn't exist? I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion but I've read, and continue to read, every post in this thread.

    My main issue with this is that we already know that you can be asexual -and- bi/gay/straight(biologically speaking), meaning that there can be a (degree of) separation between romantic and sexual feelings, yet it is somehow impossible to believe that there actually could be other subsets of sorts. It just really baffles me that someone can claim to believe in genuine asexuality yet is so hardcore against the notion that there could be more going on with a separation of the two types of feelings/attraction. You don't have to accept every bazillionth label that pops up to see it as a matter worth looking into.


    The thing I see off about that example(though I get what you're saying either way) is that it really can be looked at as unreasonable, while this topic isn't, imo. The fact that asexuality actually is known to exist(and can co-exist with gay/bi/straight) at this time you'd think would be more than enough for an idea of there being other subsets, as a general thing, to not be instantly dismissed as foolish thinking.

    And, trust me,

    Is it really any more fair/less harmful to file any and everything else not (currently) completely backed by science under t for trash though? Just telling someone who wants to understand a bit more about themselves in this area that they are probably just depressed and not thinking clearly because of it, essentially trying to shutdown further conversation, is about on the same level as the bolded, if you ask me, and is doing exactly what you say you are concerned about.

    While depression can screw with an endless amount of things, it really is ridiculously saddening how it is used to as some sort of be all, end all answer to why someone -may- be thinking/feeling outside the norm.

    It's becoming increasingly obvious on this site that we apparently aren't allowed to, at least not without branded as misguided. :-l
     
    #68 C P, Feb 24, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  9. bookreader

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    Wow, how one stupid post managed to turn this thread downhill. Such a shame.
     
  10. Young Blood

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    Alright, I understand that people on this site want to give the most scientific information to everyone and want everyone to be completely educated in subjects. I respect that. I mean, I definitely learned a lot more joining this site than researching on my own. However, I think it can be done in such a way that doesn't make it seem like you guys are trying so hard to invalidate the fact that there can be a separation between romantic and sexual orientation and that asexuality can have different subsections just as sexuality does.

    Now, asexuality doesn't have too much research on it as it is still not a widely accepted term, or even a known term from people I've discussed it with. So yes, there is not going to be a lot of "scientific information" behind it, unless you were to be talking about plants or animals. It doesn't mean there can't be something there or that there can't be varying degrees of it, just as sexuality does.

    All I'm saying is there are better ways of saying things and just let people talk about the way they're feeling. IF things are getting completely distorted, then lay down the facts a little more. But other than that, I don't think a thread like this should have been so taken over by "science".
     
    #70 Young Blood, Feb 24, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  11. HM03

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    Happy awareness week :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:ride:
     
  12. BookWriter1994

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    Even though I don't fall under this I still support it! Happy Awareness Week!
     
  13. imnotreallysure

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    If everyone took this approach to science, we would probably still be carving wheels out of rock and burning women at the stake for doing an algebra equation. Personally, I have no interest in this debate - but people who label rigorous, peer-reviewed research as 'scientific bullshit' need a good slapping. Is this Empty Closets, or a Mormon forum?
     
    #73 imnotreallysure, Feb 24, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
  14. Loveislife

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    Hmm, I get your point. I'm sorry that happened to you.

    I guess my problem lies with the tone of the people who try to inform others and the need lots of people apparently feel to inform people of the possible non-existence or incorrectness of their label on a 'Arospectrum awareness week' thread. I mean, Chip basically started this whole discussion with a comment in which he only said 'Sigh', and that is a compleeeetely unnecessary demeaning thing to do in my opinion if you just want to inform people... You can inform people while being respectful towards others. Furthermore, I think that people who are wondering if they are aromantic/asexual will probably come across the same information people are giving here about it elsewhere when they are trying to figure out their sexual and romantic orientation. It is very unlikely that this thread will be the only source they use to be informed on asexuality/aromanticism, especially when they are already on EC which is a site to help you discover your sexual and romantic orientation. That those people are on EC makes it probable that they are actively trying to figure themselves out and the information that is given here is widely available on the internet. I know I've seen this information before elsewhere, so it is highly likely they will find it somewhere anyway. So... Is it really necessary to post this information on a thread in which it is a little inappropriate to do so to prevent people from mislabeling themselves? I don't think so.

    And just as Euler has shared his experience with trying to label himself based on available information, I'd like to share mine. Some people have said that they think there is no difference between sexual and romantic orientation. I grew up with this belief, too, and for most of my life up until now, it was an important reason for me to incorrectly assume I was straight. Because when you fall in love with a gender, you must be sexually attracted to them too, right? While I am still open to being sexually attracted to guys (although the sexual attraction I experience towards them is probably not that strong in that case), I don't really think I am. I know I am very sexually attracted to girls, but I have never fallen in love with one and I have experienced barely any romantic attraction towards them yet (although I am open to the possibility that this is yet to come) but I have felt a very strong romantic attraction towards some guys and I have even fallen in love with some. So I just always thought I was straight, because guys could give me butterflies and girls didn't give me those until I realized that I wasn't that interested in having sex with guys but that girls did turn me on!

    And I guess that I feel so strongly conflicted by the belief that everything needs to be grounded in science to be considered valid because of my own experience. If I had been more open minded earlier on instead of just assuming that romantic and sexual attraction are linked with each other just as most of society believes, I might have figured myself out way earlier instead of at age 20. I didn't even know that the term romantic orientation existed or that there are people who don't experience a matching romantic and sexual orientation until I read some stories of experiences other people have had on the internet. So... if I had been informed earlier on about the possibility that your romantic and sexual orientation can differ.. even though this might be a belief that isn't grounded in science... I might have spent my teenage years completely different and I certainly would have been less anxious and stressed out about my sexuality. So while Euler now feels he needed to hear some scientific information earlier on in his life, I feel somehow let down by science.
     
  15. Loveislife

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    So I guess the point of my story is: not being open minded to beliefs that aren't grounded in science or 'common sense' or whatnot can be harmful to an individual, too.
     
    #75 Loveislife, Feb 25, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016
  16. Euler

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    Well, it was this paragraph that gave me that idea.

    Look, I don't know where the science stands on separation of romantic and sexual orientation. Chip is of the opinion that research does not support such notion. I don't have better information so I cannot vouch or deny this. All I can say is that there appears to be a strong link but what the link is exactly is not certain. I guess jury is still out on that one. However, although the jury is out people should refrain from making strong statements either way if there is no science to back it up.

    Well, personally I don't file separation of romantic and sexual orientation in the trash can although I cannot say that we know for sure that such thing exists. I don't see it particularly harmful or damaging even if people think such distinction exists. However, when a person said that they have previously been asexual but are not anymore or that they were sexual but suddenly became asexual I strongly questions if that is "true" asexual orientation.

    I'm sure there people are honest about their lack of sexual interest but as said before so many times lack of sexual interest can be caused by many things. The current understanding about homosexuality is that it is something you are born with and that it doesn't really fluctuate because it's causes are biological and prenatal. Of course it is to some extent a spectrum and there are bisexuals but if a person claims that they were straight before and became gay later or vice versa I question if their original label was right in the first place. Almost the same goes with asexuality with the exception that if you have been sexual in any previous stage of your life and you enjoyed it then claiming that you later became asexual is probably not correct.

    Listen, when we are discussing human health, it makes sense to look at the most probable causes before assuming something that is relatively rare. For example, suppose you suddenly get fever, running nose and muscular pain. Now, the most likely explanation is that you got cold. It would make no sense to immediately claim that you got HIV because the symptoms match HIV and hundreds of other medical conditions. Now, ofc course there are the unlucky ones who actually have HIV but among all the people who experience those symptoms they are a tiny minority. With HIV we are lucky because there are tests for that. For asexuality (as orientation) there is no such test. The only way to "diagnose" a person with asexuality is to literally rule out all the other conditions that cause loss of sexual interest.

    Depression is probably the most common and likely cause for loss of sexual interest. It makes sense to first investigate depression and other conditions before declaring oneself as asexual. And obviously, it is possible that asexuality and depression co-exist so just because you are depressed does not mean that you are asexual because of it.

    Humans are genetically and socially so close to each other that in most cases when someone acts out of ordinary it is worth investigating why because in some cases the causes are serious and should be addressed. I'm not saying that being an asexual (as orientation) is such but asexuality (as symptom) might be caused by something that is.

    I agree with this. I think Chip despite his frustrations did get on the debate on the wrong footing. The fact that he is an admin makes such a blunder only more regrettable although I understand where his frustration is coming from. Yet, ideally a person in his position should hold himself to a higher standard than the typical user.

    I'm not saying that people should only rely on scientific sources (and in this particular case there seems to be not that much credible studies to go with anyways). Hearing about the personal experiences of other people what worked for them is a good source when deciding what is good for oneself. Yet, it should not be the only source especially in cases like asexuality which I think is in practice more complicated than other LGBT issues because there are physical and psychological conditions that look like asexuality. There is no medical condition that looks like homosexuality.
     
  17. Loveislife

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    Yeah, true, figuring out if you are asexual or not is different from figuring out if you are homosexual or not in that regard. And I agree with you that scientific sources shouldn't be overlooked when looking for sources to help you figure out your sexuality. But, I think that you should always put what you actually feel first rather than what science says about what is possible for you to feel or what you according to 'common sense' can and can't feel.
     
  18. Chip

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    I actually have no disagreement whatsoever. Of course you should feel what you feel. I've never had any argument with that. And, furthermore, I don't think that what people feel is incongruent with what current thinking is on these topics; my entire point is that it is a perceptual difference.

    When we realize that many of the experiences described by the unrecognized labels are really just a part of the spectrum of the recognized labels, it opens up possibilities and options that are closed off by the more restrictive labels. And it is by keeping these options open rather than shutting them down with restrictive labels that we give ourselves the greatest opportunities to fully understand ourselves.
     
  19. HuskyPup

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    I've always wondered how much a role guilt towards sexuality in general, and how prevalent shame about sex is in our culture, plays into the proliferation of these labels.

    Perhaps they are stepping stones of sorts, a kind of protective armor. Though I fear in some cases, it may cause some not to accept themselves, due to internal psychological factors that they may feel uncomfortable sorting out. Mind you, not everyone...but I do see this as a danger.
     
    #79 HuskyPup, Feb 26, 2016
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