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Am I the only one worried about the left of politics?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Calf, Nov 15, 2016.

  1. Calf

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    WARNING ! This post is political, please try not to take offense by my comments or those of others and please don't make it personal.

    Just to clarify, I am from the UK though my point is generally aimed across Europe (including UK) and USA.

    Recently I have been worried about the direction of the political left. This has been brought to light due to the big political events such as Scottish independence, Brexit, EU politics and USA presidential elections. I'll give a few examples.

    After the Brexit vote and USA elections, many on the left have struggled with the idea of democracy. In fact I have read several articles and seen various interviews in which people have been unable to accept the course of democracy because it hasn't gone in their favour. This in itself is nothing new but amongst the left there is now this view of extreme superiority i.e. they are more intelligent, better educated, of higher morality, generally better people. Even in the minority, they are unwilling to consider that they may be even slightly wrong.

    Tony Blair (ex UK prime minister) said that the British people should be given additional votes on EU membership until they have made up their minds. Is this really the view of the left now? Make the people vote over and over until they vote how we tell them to?

    Of the Brexit vote, the French president said that the UK (a close military, economic and cultural ally) must be punished for leaving, it must not be allowed for other member states to see a positive in leaving the EU. Is this the view of the left now? Is the way to persuade people to stay in a democratic union through the fear of punishment rather than the benefit of reward?

    During the US presidential election just as the events in Europe, fear has been the major tool in the campaigns of the left. If you vote trump your LGBT rights will be lost, if you vote Brexit you will loose workers rights etc. Whether any of these fear stories are true is debatable but the issue that they are presented as fact rather than opinion is undoubtable. Isn't this just a form of terrorism?

    The left claims to be a place for everyone to be treated equal but it comes with a strange caveat. In order to be treated equally, you must be aligned to the left, i.e. to the left, being equal means being the same.

    There are so many other things I could write here about this but I'm aware of the length of this post already so I'll get to my point.

    The left of politics is now becoming about everyone being and thinking the same. It is becoming about the right to democracy but only if you are left. It is becoming about a form of government that dictates culture, faith and morality. It is becoming about the extreme superiority of one group of people over another.

    I know that many people will not appreciate what I'm saying here but all of the above points are worrying indications of one particular political model. Fascism.
     
    #1 Calf, Nov 15, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2016
  2. DAFriend

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    Society, as a whole, is moving to a more liberal societal mindset, more liberal values and morals. Of course the far right is going to say we are becoming amoral, too soft, cupcakes, etc...

    In truth that isn't the case, we are, on the whole, trying to be more accepting, to make this world a good place fore anyone to live, get and keep laws that prevent discrimination for any reason and, allow everyone to be productive members of society while still allowing each to have a say, voice opinions and such.

    Now the far left does tend to go overboard, just as much as the far right does but, right now there is a societal shift happening and, at this stage, it's the extreme of both sides that are in the spotlight. That's normal.

    Years down the road, I see both sides coming to more middle ground, the left accepting more personal freedoms and, the right accepting more diversity. Depending on your age, you may or may not see it even out and settle down in your lifetime but, right now the thing is not to panic, not to assume either extreme is what we as a whole really want or need and, if need be, have a plan in place to insure your own safety and, a good life for you personally.

    The other possibility is that we are seeing the beginning of the end of the USA as we know it. No Democracy has ever lasted forever. The USA has managed to keep it going longer than most in history have lasted.

    If you are religious, you might also be wondering if this is the last days but, that's another discussion.
     
  3. Cinis

    Cinis Guest

    I wouldn't go as far as to call it fascism. Oligarchy maybe. Fascism always implies a sense of Imperialism, propaganda and controlling civilians to the core of their private life.

    I'd agree with you that there's a trend to see oneself as more educated on the left side. Generally I'd blame the media here. At least where I live news coverage that is supposed to be neutral always tends to portray right opinions as ignorant or bigoted. Since it's Germany they can of course explain it with being careful about history and stuff like that but that doesn't change that they are technically obliged to be neutral when talking about political stuff.

    It does annoy me when people vote without informing themselves first. This is happening with some right-voters who follow simple paroles but I've also seen left-voters who were against something simply because it's"conservative" without even taking it into consideration.
    That said I think it's important for everyone to inform themselves and try to see something from as many angles as possible before they make their decision. After that I don't actually care if they vote left or right.
    Everyone has the right to their own opinion as long as they have good arguments for it I'll accept it. If someone just goes shouting it is that way because it is that way and I know better than all of you, that's just stupid.

    Maybe it is undemocratic of me to dismiss opinions without arguments behind them, but honestly I'm just tired of people screaming at each other than they are right without going anywhere because they don't actually discuss anything and think that insulting someone else could bring that person to share their opinion.
     
  4. sam the man

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    I'm worried about all of politics tbh. It's both sides. The "bigoted, racist, misogynistic dumbass" of the right has as its equivalent in the left the "metropolitan, latte-sipping, liberal hipster SJWs who wouldn't know real life if it hit them across the face". It's simplifying, stereotyping, othering, call it what you like - a lot of people, on both sides of politics, are doing it.

    It's just that, probably, a lot of people aren't ready to seriously entertain the idea that, hey, maybe the other side came to that conclusion for considered reasons which might even be just as good as my own. We all do it to some extent, and it's always been that way. But I think recently it's been getting particularly bad. For example, Brexiteers getting branded as xenophobic Little Englanders when really, although few were cogently (or honestly) argued in the campaign, there were reasons to vote Leave, which for a while I flirted with myself. I was angry at the result, and even angry towards Leavers, because many I didn't think had a leg to stand on to explain why they voted that way (and I still think it was the wrong decision). But intellectually I know it was never as clear cut as "Leave = racist, Remain = intelligent".

    I do agree with you though that it feels as though the Left (or at least the hard Left) seem to think they have a monopoly on morality. Intellectually, there's nothing wrong with drawing lines in terms of morality and believing that, yes, sometimes one moral system or value is better than another. Nor is it wrong to take a stand and say "no, we shouldn't pander to your concerns because......" The issue comes when, as seems to be happening a lot, you refuse to entertain the idea that the other side might have something meaningful to say and may even have something to teach you - so then you just start belittling them. As I said before, it's not like it's only the Left that does this, but it seems to be quite pronounced, especially with some ideas going round at the moment.

    Some remarks on your observations, though: on the Trump protests, yeah there are some who want to get rid of Trump, but the message of the protest is bigger than that I think, in that it's a rejection of the messages the Trump campaign gave and a warning shot that Trump cannot do as he pleases, especially if he wants to represent all Americans. So I wouldn't write them off as illegitimate so hastily myself. On the EU... it's not the Left being vindictive so much as it is realpolitik. Of course the EU needs to make an example of us. No, they won't be so extreme as to screw over their own business relations with us, but if we can exit the EU and be all hunky-dory with nothing changed, what then is the point of the EU? Why shouldn't other countries leave just as quickly? It's just part of the political game imo.
     
  5. Flowey

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    I wouldn't worry because whatever the left is doing, it's not working. Brexit's still gonna happen. Trump presidency's still gonna happen. Too much fearmongering and people will get desensitized. It's quite funny to watch all the moral panic happening around.

    And yeah, politics is never about niceness, I think it's rational for the EU want to make an example out of UK. It's probably not going to deter already frustrated citizens, but probably will keep their governments in line. No one wants to be responsible for an economic downfall. Despite that, I believe the UK will be fine, and Scotland ain't getting independence. You might be an empire again :lol:
     
  6. timo

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    I don't really agree with they way you're using "the left" as a term for everyone left-of-the-center. It seems to only add to the polarization in society and to the feeling of "us vs. them", which I think is a very bad development in modern politics.

    Interesting observation. We could say the same about "the right". A lot of new nationalists/right-wing populists use fear as their main campaign method. Fear of muslims, of immigrants, of refugees. Sure, some concerns about the refugee crisis and the rise of terrorism are legit, but a lot of things are only based on fear, are only there to influence people's emotions.

    ---

    I'm proud to say I'm a left-wing progressive, but there are quite some of left-wing parties I don't agree with, and there are subjects where the right-wing parties have some good points. Right now, I'm worried about politics as a whole. It doesn't seem to be about the content anymore, but about who can put on the best show, who's best at entertaining the people. And that's not what politics is about.
     
  7. Reciprocal

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    I'm concerned about the left. They seem to be abandoning their heartlands and the working-class people, the demographic that largely voted Leave and worries about immigration. Many left-wingers seem to be taking up a position that their opinion is somehow more valid than that of others, and that democratic decisions can be overruled because they got the wrong result. Very patronising, I say.

    Of course, the right-wing are having issues also, but I think a lot of it is reaction to uncontrolled immigration, and failed experiments like the EU that anger working-class people.
     
  8. Jakob

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    I'm sure if the U.K.voted to stay and the US voted for Hillary, the right would be saying the exact same. Bitching and moaning about Hillary winning and the stupid left voting to stay. Both sides think they're better than each other, especially in the States.

    Another thing is that "the left" is too broad if at term. There are too many ideologies that you can't generalize it. To think liberals and socialists think the same just wouldn't make sense. It'd be like saying Stephen Harper speaks for the entire right, and his actions represent the entire right.

    Also, during the election, republicans were saying similar things. Hillary Clinton will take away your guns. Your religious freedoms and free speech will be infringed, yadda yadda yadda.
     
  9. Argentwing

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    I get the idea from a lot with liberal viewpoints that their way needs to be forced. Something I hear often enough is "there should be a law" especially when it comes to things companies do. A very obvious example is the ACA, infamous as "Obamacare."

    The thing is, no matter what benefits something brings, it is severely weakened if it is mandatory. People don't like to be forced to do things. And as many blows as freedom and capitalism have been dealt recently, I still believe in both of them in a balanced system. We can't allow a glut of restrictive laws to pass, nor allow excess power surrendered to non-government concentrations like corporations.

    The thing about freedom is that even the people with crappy opinions deserve to have it. Of course it's not always that simple, but that is why we change things when we see problems arise.
     
  10. Browncoat

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    1. The feeling of moral superiority with regard to political stances is hardly something that occurs solely on the left. Give me a break.

    2. Humanity is not becoming more devisive. This is the way it's always been. Stop deluding yourselves.
     
    #10 Browncoat, Nov 16, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
  11. Pret Allez

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    I take your concern to be that the left is intolerant and full of condescension for people who disagree with them.

    I don't share your concern. What you say about the left is both true and desirable. One side is clearly more evil than the other. If the left has a failing, it is not so much intolerance of the intolerant, or condescension directed at people who should never be allowed to dictate human rights policy of any kind, it's that the left is too accommodating of the right.

    In the US, the Congress has obstructed President Obama every step of the way through his administration, despite the fact that he is not as far to the left as he promised to be or should have been. Hell, Obama is barely to Hillary Clinton's left, and she's unacceptably far to the right.

    Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have unfortunately completely capitulated to popular stupidity, saying that they are "willing to work with" Trump "so long as" Trump doesn't go after minorities. They have failed to critique Trump's blatant racist appeal, instead averring he's simply "populist" and if he's "serious about helping the working class" they will support him. These are the people who previously fought tooth and nail against him and are now essentially allowing him to walk away from his reputation for being racist.

    As such, they have lost my respect. The Democratic Party is one of pusillanimity. They'd rather position themselves to win than stand for principles. It's the same kind of "let's settle for what we can get" bullshit that lead the Human Rights Campaign to throw transgender civil rights under the bus repeatedly.

    The point of being a minority or opposition party is to challenge the country to improve ethically, not to snivel around and try to get table scraps around side channels.

    The left's recent... elevated disdain for democracy is a hopeful development. It seems that for the first time, previously anti-gun liberals in the US are looking to learn firearms and get licensed. Anti-fascist groups may begin to see growth soon. While none of this points to things that threaten the democratic order, it does mean that the left is beginning to properly see the need for physical self-defence and understanding that asking bullies to stop being mean is an incredibly stupid idea.

    Human rights are never given voluntarily by the oppressor; they are won by coercion, whether by physical force, boycotting, or plain ostracism and ridicule.
     
    #11 Pret Allez, Nov 16, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
  12. AgenderMoose

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    *LOUD HISSING* THE BANE OF MY SOCIALIST EXISTENCE.
    Oh yea, socialism. That makes me...really really far left. Whoops.

    *coughs* Anyway. I honestly think that politics have been using fear mongering too much in general and, since the right has been pretty well dominating as of late (at least in the US), the left is where a lot of the fear mongering has been shown. But that doesn't mean that just the left is going down that path ("..[Mexicans] are bringing crime. They're rapists...", "Hillary Clinton is a liar/can't be trusted", etc.)

    As for the superiority complex, I think that's just human nature. The way I see a lot of the world is people constantly dividing themselves into groups and saying "our group is correct, and anything else is wrong". That's the case with religion, politics, and honestly just petty things about a lifestyle. There will always be people like that, and more often than not, they're going to be louder than those who aren't like that.

    Just the struggles of our existence, it seems. Most we can do for now is to try and push unity despite different views, I guess.
     
  13. midwestgirl89

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    I'm not worried about the left. In the USA the "left" is what pushes the country toward social progress like better environmental practices, equal rights, etc. Without the left we would either be stagnant or get more oppressive each year by the far right.
     
  14. Aussie792

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    Obviously that's something of a trend, but when the backlash manifests itself in such ways as the US President-elect appointing a virulent antisemite as a chief adviser, it's clear to me which I am more concerned about.

    I think the hard left is plagued by short political memory, poor economics and excessive focus on social issues, which often clouds economic debates and causes the language of the left to predicate itself on terms and ideas completely alien to the right.

    And the left far too often assumes that anything tainted by centrist or right wing ideas is unacceptable - even when the centre-right is merely proposing a mechanism to accomplish what the left also desires. That largely comes about in economic affairs, where the hard left is at a disadvantage because it doesn't actually frame anything economically, instead using all its rhetorical force in stressing social systems and identity. A good example is the centre-right idea of state-slimming. Cutting bureaucracy and welfare can counterintuitively make society more equal, because excessively large administration cushions an elite, is unnavigable for those in need and wasteful, or often because they're just too expensive for future generations to pay for. It is of course contentious, the extent to which you can do these things, but the left often acts as if it is an act of direct oppression and hatred of the poor when those proposals are aired.

    It's that sense of moral outrage even where the motives are the same which can alienate many people. In the general poltical sphere it results in a perception of the left crying wolf where legitimate concerns really do exist. Calling Republicans fundamentally evil no matter what (not that many mainstream Republican policies were not abhorrent) was all well and good until the same cries fell on deaf ears when an inexperienced, racist, sexually-assaulting bully was depicted in the same terms that have lost their potency by overuse.

    Too often, the left fails to remember that the current world order is not a given. That countries like Britain and America can't just withdraw from the world stage and cease to put themselves into moral quandaries just so they can remain 'pure'. That liberal democracy can fall by failing to allow the compromise such systems are designed to deliver and refusing to accept the moral legitimacy of any opposition. That segregating society ideologically will cause such polarisation that the political system begins to crumble as mandates are ignored on all sides. That the blossoming of democracy and an unprecedented chance for political and social pluralism is an historical anomaly, not something we can take for granted.

    I think too many young people are deeply affected by this sort of thinking. It's really harmful to the left not to accept compromise with the centre or neglect to acknowledge that the goal of politics for most people is not to prove moral purity, but to accomplish real outcomes.

    None of that is fascism. But all of it is a failure to accept pragmatic outcomes in the only systems that make politics an effective way of improving lives.
     
  15. Poroyl

    Poroyl Guest

    It's always so easy to blame and see faults in the left, while we constantly praise everything about the right. Trump's victory is the left's fault. The left caused the high unemployment rates. The left made the economy collapse. The left did this, the left did that.
    The right wing can only blame itself for what it has caused. Stop pointing fingers on people who didn't even make the choice. And about Brexit, why shouldn't UK be punished? Should they be rewarded? Then everyone will leave, Schengen will collapse and we can all return to the happy-go-lucky societies of the early 1900's.
    Here in Sweden, the right wing is getting out of hand. Our right wing parties are going closer and closer to the right wing extremist Sweden Democrats, vulgarizing their rhetorics and suddenly calling our female ministers whores. It's so convenient to say that the left is the same, that they are causing the polarization. But facts remain, there is no left wing extremist party here nearing 20% in the polls (as for the right wing exremists), and there is no website for left wing extremists where they can have "locker room" talk about everything they hate.
    So, if I were to worry about something, it would be the advance of right wing populism. After all, they aren't particularly fond of the LGBTQ community.
     
  16. onlythebulls13

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    My issue with this is saying the the far left and far right are ultimately the same....no, theyre not. You dont see bernie supporters beating up people that dont look like them at sanders rallies. You dont hear the extreme rhetoric that encourages violence coming from Elizabeth warren. Ive never heard sharrod brown say that we need a religious test for extremist christians coming in this country.

    I also diagree with the assessment of the left after this right wing wave. I believe that in the long term, 2016 will have made liberals stronger and give them a bigger microphone. It proved that neo liberal ideology is a failed ideology. Pandering to wall st and the center right does bot win you elections. If you run a republican lite against a republican then a republican will win. I have much faith in the progressive movement after this election. We just need to hope the democratic party doesnt keep making the same mistake and follow behind wasserman shultz, howard dean, donna brazille, joe manchem and claire mccaskill. Time to make the deomcratic party follow bernie sanders, Elizabeth warren, tulsi gabbard, nina turner and cornell west.
     
  17. Harve

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    Loads of good posts in this thread.

    I think the moral highground that some of the left have assumed is a natural reactions of the more sinister elements of the direction 2016 politics has been taking. Because, really, when you're against portraying refugees as some sort of invasive mass of subhumans or propose banning an entire religion from a country, it's easy to see yourself as morally correct. Note that some of the far-right have embraced their image of being 'morally wrong' too (although that applies more to the US than the UK).

    There's also the genuine parallels of Brexit, AfD, Trump's election, the Alt Right etc. with past events such as the rise of the Nazis. The latter is obviously universally deplored and serves as a reminder of what happens when the worst comes to the worst. It gives this year/decade a historical context.

    The tricky part is to challenge the racism trend and fight its normalisation (or, at least, this racism trend in particular is the one that concerns me most) without actually calling the people who may or may not hold such views a 'basket of deplorables' or whatever. Because then, it feels like you're rejecting people from society.

    But also it would be a good idea for the left to stop being quite so bogged down with minority politics altogether and approach issues from the point of view of social class, which I feel is getting ignored. Disfavoured minorities are more likely to be of a lower class, so the two go hand-in-hand anyway.
     
    #17 Harve, Nov 18, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  18. Austin

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    You're not. The left has turned to identity politics, which is dividing our country and putting white men on the defensive.
     
  19. RainydayTofu

    RainydayTofu Guest

    I've only got a few thoughts (that goes for politics in general!) but there they are:

    Extremes are almost never good

    'Not getting your own way' is eaxctly the price you pay for having voting and democracy, all the whinging that went on after Brexit (I voted to remain) just looked and sounded like sour grapes to me! There was an article on the BBC about how Brexit and the US elections havn't been a good 'advert for democracy' for the Chinese. As observers watching these 2 events, the Chinese Government saw how both events turned so bitter so quickly, and don't look like they're settling down anytime soon.

    Oh, and the media used it as a great opportunity to divide society into 2 clear groups! I'm a white male without a degree, so according to the media I obviously voted a.) to leave the EU b.) for Trump :lol: There was such a backlash against women who didn't vote for Trump

    The extreme left and right in politics are so very similar. I think, rather than a 'spectrum' of political belief drawn as straight line, it's more of a circle; you can go so left you end upon the right, and vice-versa.

    Why people think that touting their (supposed) superiority to the 'other camp' (in this case the 'lefts' to the 'rights') will win anyone over to their cause I do not know...

    Everything seems to go in cycles, with old politics coming back round again years down the line. It'll swing the other way soon.

    Well, I don't see myself as anywhere on the spectrum, and although for political commentators it's helpful to have terms like 'left' and 'right' I think the concept as a whole isn't accurate. People often say that anything they don't like is a characteristic/policy of the other side!

    And the right are just as bad! :lol: People who voted leave in Brexit tell me I'm stupid for worrying about my job. Well I could tell them they're stupid for worrying about immigrants I guess! (but I don't!)

    I'm starting to have a lot of admiration for people who don't vote, and I may be joining them!

    ---------- Post added 19th Nov 2016 at 11:24 AM ----------

    In short, no I don't totally agree- both extremes (and even not-so-extremes) are to blame in my opinion.