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‘God has shown me that I should not call anyone profane or unclean’

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Mogget, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Mogget

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    Progressive theology blogger Fred Clark argues that denying LGBT people full inclusion in the church is "objectively immoral — and objectively unbiblical."



    ---------- Post added 10th Sep 2012 at 08:12 AM ----------

    The comments are also worth a read. Some very interesting, and non-homophobic, debate going on there.
     
  2. Nightwing

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    I like this. I always like being able to throw scripture back in bigoted bible thumpers faces especially when the Jesus people start quoting the old testament without taking account what Jesus added (Sermon on the Mount/Cast First Stone/yadda yadda yadda)
     
  3. Lexington

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    Is it OK to accept it when people say God told them to do something positive?

    Lex
     
  4. Mogget

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    One thing that's important to remember with passages like the one Fred quotes, as well as others in the Gospels and Pauline epistles is that they reinterpreted or even through out Old Testament scripture without having the authority of being scripture. None of the New Testament was originally written as scripture, none of them were originally read as having the same authority as the Hebrew scriptures.
     
  5. AtheistWorld

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    I don't have any problem with the church rejecting LGBTQ people at all.

    In fact, credit goes to churches for sticking to what their holy book says.

    On a similar note, you have to respect the WBC in a basic sense, because unlike most churches, they do stick to what their Bible says.

    One thing I loathe is hypocrisy, so when LGBTQ try to reconcile faith with their sexuality, two things that can not go together, there's nothing I can do except laugh. Call the WBC whatever you want, but at least they're honest.
     
    #5 AtheistWorld, Sep 10, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2012
  6. Mogget

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    The Bible doesn't "say" anything. As an anthology written and compiled over a period of several hundred years, translated and retranslated from two (three if you count Daniel) languages, and divorced from the cultural contexts in which the various works in the anthology were written any attempt to use the Bible for moral or theological purposes will involve a high degree of hermeneutics (the art of interpreting difficult texts).

    It is impossible to interpret the Bible literally. Not difficult, impossible. In the context of what the Bible is, the idea of a literal interpretation isn't even coherent. Are Jesus' parables literally true? When Jesus calls himself a gate in John, is that literal? Genesis 1 and 2 are contradictory in detail, but far more importantly, the passion narratives in Mark and John are thematically contradictory. How can you possibly interpret thematically contradictory narratives thematically?

    And the passions aren't the only ones. How could you possibly interpret Ezra and Nehemiah literally and Ruth and Jonah literally? The first two make it clear that Yahweh's people are the Israelites and Judahites and only the Israelites and Judahites. Ruth and Jonah say the opposite, the opinion of most biblical scholars is that they were deliberately written to refute people like the author of Ezra and Nehemiah.

    Since a plain-text or literal reading of the Bible is impossible, I see no reason why I should give any credit to the people who claim to do so. They aren't. They can't. I'd rather give credit to the people who read the text, examine the context in which it was written, and try to interpret the text in light of the Sermon on the Mount and the principle of "love thy neighbor."
     
  7. Pret Allez

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    I read the passage that Fred Clark links to, and it appears to me that all it does is state that Jews and Gentiles, and the circumcised and uncircumcised can be in the presence of one another.

    I don't see that god has made queers clean. So while I think that Mr. Clark is an honorable and compassionate man, I don't find the argument convincing.
     
  8. Mogget

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    Fred's interpretation hinges on Acts 11:9 "...Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." Fred argues that this does more than refer to the uncleanliness of Gentiles, but rather refers to all people being clean.

    There are at least two reasons that this interpretation makes sense. The first is that in Peter's vision he is not shown one kind of unclean food, but all kinds of unclean food. The second is Acts 8:26-40, which is about the salvation of a eunuch. Leviticus 21:26-20 forbids eunuchs from entering the presence of God.
     
  9. IrishLad93

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    Agreed
     
  10. AtheistWorld

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    Thanks for agreeing with me. :slight_smile: