1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Am I valid?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by GreenAnonymous, May 12, 2022.

  1. GreenAnonymous

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    A few days ago, I posted a thread on here asking whether I am too young to be sure about my sexuality. One answer hit my weak spot. In the thread, I mentioned that I am demiromantic. This reply told me that Demi isn't valid nor recognised by any major scientific papers. So am I valid despite having a sexual orientation that isn't scientifically proven as of this moment? Or does the fact that it isn't recognised mean that I shouldn't label myself as such?

    P.S. the most upsetting thing about that reply was that it was written by an advisor of this site.
     
  2. GraceMiamor

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    New London, Ohio
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Hun, u can go by whatever u want to go by I'm a demigirl so I get where u are coming from that would hurt me too.
     
  3. GreenAnonymous

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    But what if he was right. I know that I am demiromantic but still. Is it true? Is there no scientific research behind it?
     
  4. GraceMiamor

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    New London, Ohio
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I'm not really sure but u r who u r theres no Scientific proof about demigirls either but they still have it on lots of lgbtq websites
     
  5. GreenAnonymous

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    But what really bothers me is:

    a person who tells other people that their sexual orientations aren't recognised is a board member, an advisor and is on the admin team of a site for LGBTQ+ support.

    Is it just me or is that not a good thing?
     
  6. GraceMiamor

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    New London, Ohio
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Some people

    It's not just u that isn't a good thing because you are who you are and hell if I had my way I would take it to the creator of this site.
     
  7. GreenAnonymous

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    thank you - do you think I should report it?
     
  8. GraceMiamor

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    New London, Ohio
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Yes, and no problem
     
  9. GreenAnonymous

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Done it - definitely made me feel better. thanks again
     
  10. PeachyGirl

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2022
    Messages:
    50
    Likes Received:
    37
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I really don't think it matters if it's recognized scientifically right now, you're using a term that describes how you feel and that's all that matters in my opinion. The whole concept that you cannot separate sexual attraction from romantic attraction is BS, I think, I know people who are sexually attracted to men but NOT romantically attracted to them, but are romantically attracted to women, people are complex and nuanced in so many ways.
     
    GreenAnonymous likes this.
  11. BiGemini87

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2019
    Messages:
    1,485
    Likes Received:
    1,318
    Location:
    Pembroke, ON
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I think you've misunderstood Chip's input, and to be honest, I think that's coming largely from a place of emotion. When we get too emotional, it can cloud our judgment and make us more likely to take things personally or in a way it wasn't intended. You're well within your rights to use whatever labels you think suit you; he said as much. But as a founder of this site and the non-profit organization affiliated with it, it is his job to ensure factual information is present wherever the need arises. Simply put, it wasn't an attack against you or your ideals, but a means of offering clarity to others who might become confused when the unconfirmed information becomes too convoluted (as it has in recent years).

    Please don't take this as an attack; it's merely a means of offering clarity in the situation. Furthermore, you don't require other's validation. The only approval that matters is your own. If these are the labels you prefer, than by all means, use them. Conflicting beliefs on the subject needn't become personal between members, staff or otherwise. :slight_smile:
     
    Sunchimes, Chip, masterofnone and 3 others like this.
  12. GraceMiamor

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    New London, Ohio
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Some people

    I agree with you but like people shouldn't say they can't use them because they are classified or anything like that.
     
  13. GreenAnonymous

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    I agree with most of that. But he did quite literally tell me that my orientation isn't valid and not recognised and I don't know, but I kind of feel like he shouldn't be saying that on a site that is about supporting people who are most probably quite emotional about this kind of topic. He could've said something like: Demi is a controversial topic because there is yet to be a major scientific study about it. rather than saying: Demi anything isn't valid or recognised.
     
  14. GraceMiamor

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    17
    Location:
    New London, Ohio
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Yes that I would have been better
     
  15. PatrickUK

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2014
    Messages:
    6,943
    Likes Received:
    2,362
    Location:
    England
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I think it's important to note what was actually written. The exact words were:

    "Demi is not a recognized or validated sexual orientation."

    Like it or not, this is a statement of fact. Although demi identities are being widely promoted in unmoderated online spaces, there has been little or no research into the validity or viability of these identities or the labels that are being used in the promotion of the same. They're just not recognized in any professional sense. In saying this, you are not being invalidated as an individual.

    You asked us if the label was too precise and we told you what we really thought. It may not have been the answer you were hoping for, but it was an honest response to an open question - a question you asked. Again, the exact words we wrote to you were:

    "There is nothing wrong with adopting a label that suits you..."

    but when you are communicating with others it helps to use labels that have been well studied and are widely understood and recognized in society and by professionals for whom sex and sexuality is their life's work. This is the benchmark we set on Empty Closets when we are seeking to provide information, advice and support to members. It's very important! If we allow all sorts of unrecognized labels to be promoted without challenge we will not serve our members or visitors well and I'm afraid demi identities are just not recognized in any professional sense. In saying this we are not seeking to hurt you, but we cannot choose to overlook what we know or decline to share that information with others and for the benefit of others.
     
    Tai and BiGemini87 like this.
  16. Sunchimes

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2022
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    159
    Location:
    UK
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    Other
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    We must remember that just because science hasn’t proven anything on a subject, it doesn’t mean it isn’t real.

    So much in this world has to be based on “fact” and rigid studies. Science is based on testing hypothesis, to prove a theory. It has to be peer reviewed etc etc (I’ve studied a science so I know how it goes).

    As for labels in the LGBT community, I feel we all need a degree in order to learn them all. I’d rather describe myself, how I feel my gender is and how I fall in love and find people attractive. It’s much easier than having to work my way through a list of labels and categorise myself rigidly.

    Just remember that however you describe yourself and however you identify, “you” are valid. It doesn’t matter about the validity of a label.

    It doesn’t really matter what label is scientifically studied and added to a list of a zillion other labels. What matters is how you feel and what comes from your heart.

    You are special and you are valid.

    Hugs
     
    GreenAnonymous likes this.
  17. GreenAnonymous

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2022
    Messages:
    23
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Yes - 50 years ago, being gay didn’t have any scientific research to back it up now there is. The same goes for pretty much everything sexual or gender identity. So it is pretty likely that Demi will be recognised in a few years.

    I understand that it is part of this site’s rules to make sure that facts always stay in the foreground and even though it wasn’t meant to insult me, well it kind of did. All I ask is that next time you think of a nicer way to say it. For instance with the word yet:
    Unfortunately, it’s has neither been proven or disproven by science yet however there are studies looking into it.
    Or:
    Well according to science it isn’t recognised yet but it’s is widely accepted within the community.
     
    #17 GreenAnonymous, May 15, 2022
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
    Sunchimes likes this.
  18. Rayland

    Moderator Full Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2021
    Messages:
    2,177
    Likes Received:
    1,657
    Location:
    Estonia
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I feel the need to give my 2 cents here.

    I read through the response and thought it was very nicely said. He said it as it was needed to be said. There is really no need to seek validation or put labels on yourself. You could also have said: "thank you for your response and advice, but this isn't really what I was looking for." And moved on. He took time to answer you in hopes that this will help you and others somehow.
     
    BiGemini87 and Sunchimes like this.
  19. Sunchimes

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2022
    Messages:
    223
    Likes Received:
    159
    Location:
    UK
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    Other
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Try to remember that we are in an online forum and I’ve also in the past owned and managed an online forum for many years, that was extremely important that involved medical researchers and veterinary people along with some prolific dog breeders and pet owners. I know the subject matter is totally different here but the format is the same.

    In text we miss a lot of expression in the way a point is brought across or information is given. For example, we don’t see facial expression and we don’t hear tone of voice. Text is flatlined and can be misinterpreted in so many ways.

    I had a lot of times in my forum where I had to intervene and calm people down because they’d got the wrong end of the stick or took someone’s response in a bad way.

    The response given to you was meant to help. This is a forum where people come to be helped and the responses from ordinary members, advisors, moderators and admin are meant in a positive way, giving their own advice or facts as they see fit for one purpose only and that is to help.

    Please rethink how you’re reacting to his response and see it for how it was really meant. Just to help you and others. We all put our advice forwards based upon our experiences and our research. People can then read through everyone’s advice and take bits from all the responses that are helpful.

    Nobody meant any harm to you and never would in a forum like this. It is the admins and moderator’s jobs to prevent people from coming to any harm here. They certainly wouldn’t want to cause any upset themselves. They work so hard behind the scenes and only want to do this to help you and everyone else that comes to the forum seeking answers for their problems.

    You are valid and you are loved. Nobody means you any harm here. :slight_smile:
     
    #19 Sunchimes, May 15, 2022
    Last edited: May 15, 2022
  20. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    16,560
    Likes Received:
    4,757
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    You aren't directly saying it, but you're effectively bringing up the tired trope of "Well, the DSM classified homosexuality as an illness until 1973" and the implication is that since science is constantly changing, that we may not know the truth."

    However, with regard to the 1973 thing... we have to keep in mind that the first anyone actually studied sexual orientations and relationships in any meaningful way was Kinsey, in the 1940s. Then there was a gap until the mid 1960s when Masters and Johnson unleashed a flurry of studies. Thus, it was really only about 7 or so years from the time the major studies started coming in until the DSM removed homosexuality as an illness.

    We now have close to 60 years worth of really solid research, by thousands of authors, peer reviewed and published in the best journals in the world. And we have actually been looking at things like sexual attraction, love, romance, and so forth for even longer than that. These studies are still ongoing.

    And no credible studies suggest any evidence for discordant sexual and romantic orientation. Furthermore, while there are some therapists that will literally affirm anything a client says, because they are afraid of confrontation (which often does them a huge disservice), again, the majority consensus of competent professionals matches the literature on this topic.

    Additionally, we have an absolute epidemic, especially in the US, of childhood family-of-origin issues including attachment and bonding failures, trauma and other adverse experiences, which influence the child's capacity to experience and process emotions. This results in record numbers of diagnoses of various mental health disorders in children and teens, including depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder, OCD, and many other disorders. These disorders manifest as neurochemical and in some cases morphological adaptations of the child's developing brain. All of these commonly impact one's ability to feel and understand emotions... which in turn influences how people see the world. The result is an epidemic of people who have difficulty understanding their emotional selves.

    But this does not affect sexual orientation.

    What it does is affect how people interact, because of the trauma and experiences they have had. Trauma does not change sexual orientation. If it did, then we could do the opposite things to change sexual orientation (such as converting someone from gay to straight, as the religious crazies have been trying to do for decades.) And guess what? Those sixty years' worth of studies prove definitively that sexual orientation cannot be changed. It's hardwired.

    On the other hand, our capacity to experience emotion can and does change over time. Thus, someone who is "demi-something" is someone whose experience is, from all the data we have, influenced by their family-of-origin issues, and this is tied to emotional expression. We solve that issue (through therapy or, sometimes, through self-work) and the individual can suddenly experience the emotions that they previously weren't able to experience. Thus, what was going on was not a hardwired sexual orientation, but a byproduct of a lack of emotional expression or capacity.

    And then we add to that the widely variable ways in which adolescence and puberty express in individuals (and this, too, can be influenced by childhood trauma, according to some of the newest studies.) So one adolescent might have strong sexual feelings at 9 years old, while another might not experience strong sexual feelings until their early 20s. Thus, when we are talking about so-called "demi" identities, which are entirely a byproduct of diminished capacity for sexual feeling, or "aromantic", which is not a thing because there's no data whatsoever to suggest any discordant separation between romantic and sexual orientations, not only are these most likely a result of emotional development and thus changeable, they are completely unreliable during the adolescent years because of the enormous variation in pubertal development.

    When we promote the idea that an emotional development/trauma issue is a sexual orientation, we do an enormous disservice to the individuals, because people are taught that sexual orientations are stable. These emotional/developmental issues, especially among adolescents, but even among adults, are entirely changeable. Thus, unless we're completely throwing away the idea that sexual orientation is hardwired and stable (which there is literally 70+ years of research that is pretty unequivocal about), we have to acknowledge that this simply isn't a credible thing. And that's why there's no literature supporting the idea. You cannot prove a negative. But you can show, with 70+ years of research, that something doesn't exist, and that's a pretty close second to proving a negative.

    Thus, science is our friend. If we don't rely on it, if we say "Oh, well, there's this-or-that reason why we can toss science in this case", we get to a place where nothing in society is stable. This is why you have ridiculously ignorant people who honestly believe the world is flat.

    So... to sum up:

    There is no evidence to support a discordant separation of so-called romantic and sexual orientation.
    Thus, you can't be something-romantic and something-sexual. You are something-sexual.

    Asexuality is absolutely something that exists and is well documented for some 70 years. But it is rare, and the term has been hijacked to mean something other than what it actually means, which is a hardwired lack of any interest in sex. Someone asexual can feel a connection to someone, but that's emotionally intimate friendship, not some ridiculous made-up word.

    Demi-anything is essentially a lack of access to the kind of emotional expression ("love at first sight" is one example) that someone with full access to their emotions experiences. This experience aren't hardwired; thus, not a sexual orientation.

    Now, with that said,

    Anyone is absolutely free to describe themselves in any way they like. I can be unicornsexual or sky-romantic, or blonde-o-sexual (attracted only to blondes) or aquasexual (I only am sexually attracted when in water) or anything else. But these are not studied and validated terms. If I use them, it might be fun, it might make me happy, it might identify me... and that's fine. But if words and labels are to mean anything, they should have a consistent, replicable, verifiable meaning behind them.

    It doesn't mean someone can't use an unrecognized label. It doesn't mean the person using the label is invalid. What it means is, an unrecognized label is likely not a scientifically accurate and consistent term. Different people will use the term differently, which dilutes its meaning, and ultimately, degrades the accuracy of labels and language. But if none of that bothers you, there's no reason you can't use any label you wish.

    .
     
    itsuka likes this.