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Self-esteem changes who you want to date?

Discussion in 'Family, Friends, and Relationships' started by jjusa, Jan 12, 2022.

  1. jjusa

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    I feel weird about dating. I am currently looking for a male romantic partner, but I am also looking for a female sexual partner, and I feel weird about looking for both at the same time. My self-esteem definitely plays a role in how I select which gender I want to spend time with and how I want to spend it with them.

    I notice when my self-worth is low, I am looking solely for men (the opposite sex) for emotional support and can only see myself romantically with them. I feel that I am not good enough for a woman and that they are way out of my league, so it makes me view them romantically less and less.

    When my self-esteem is high, I am only interested and thinking about being with a woman, but the moment I think about how that would actually look, I freak out. Then I realize that women have never been interested in me or have wanted to take a chance on me, and it scares me to think of them in a romantic way, so my self-esteem plummets. The cycle continues.

    I feel like I am trying to keep my self-esteem manageable and be less likely to feel hurt, by only dating men and not going near women, but if I have the opportunity to have a sexual encounter with a woman, I would. That's where I am at now.
     
  2. Canterpiece

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    Hi Jjusa,

    Could you expand on how your self-worth is tied to which gender you pursue? Based on this post, I get the impression that you are putting women on a pedestal above men. That being with a woman would be the ideal scenario for you, but at present this seems an unattainable possibility. Why does it scare you to think of women in a romantic way? I have to wonder if there is some internalised shame going on here. Also, it should be noted that sometimes relationships between two women are overly-idealised and represented in an almost ethereal and innocent way, when they can potentially be just as messy as any straight relationship. Perhaps this is part of the reason for your hesitancy? How do you feel about men? Further, how do you feel about women and how does this contrast?

    - Canterpiece.
     
    #2 Canterpiece, Jan 21, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2022
  3. Chip

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    So what I'm reading from the above is that when your self-esteem is low, you feel the need to behave the way other people want you to behave by dating men. When you're feeling more confident about yourself and who you are, then you behave more consistently with your authentic self. This is completely consistent with what you've described in other posts about what's getting in the way of accepting your sexual orientation.

    I understand the behavior. But it is ultimately doomed to fail, because the issue is, at its core, that you are attracted to women, yet you are not comfortable accepting and acknowledging that, which is interfering with your willingness to approach and connect with women. Thus, your perception that no women are interested in you, because you're essentially putting off the vibe that you don't want women, because you're trying to convince yourself that you want to be with a man, which, pretty clearly, you don't.

    Once again, this is something that you would do super well exploring in therapy. All of it is tied together: the self esteem issues, the ups and downs of mood and self-esteem, the unwillingness to act on your attractions to women, the desire to stay safe and only date men, the ambivalence toward dating, and the repeating cycle. And my guess is that your self-esteem is so incredibly low (and probably further damaged by judgmental perceptions from your family) that it's even interfering with your ability to be open in therapy. This is, of course, exacerbated by having had shitty therapists.

    I know it's hard, especially given the experiences you've had. And I also know you can get past all of it with the right therapist. Please explore that possibility. You deserve better.
     
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  4. jjusa

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    Hi Canterpiece. When I am pursuing the opposite sex, my inner negative critic doesn't emerge (at least not that often), telling me how undeserving I am of love and relationships. I don't really have to try that hard with men. Yes, I do put women on a pedestal above men sometimes. Other times, I tell myself that women are too cruel/mean and that men are the true "safe" option because they find me likeable, attractive, and actually want to get to know the real me. That boosts my confidence a little. Around women I feel too awkward, shy, rejected, unlovable, and difficult to get to know. I feel I am too much of something or too little of something else... I don't like these qualities about myself, and they seem to emerge when I think about relationship with the same sex.

    How do I feel about men? I think men can be wonderful companions, and I find men to be reliable and trustworthy. I get feelings of familiarity and security. I get uncomfortable though when they actually flirt with or pursue me. Women - I get visceral anxiety and feelings of unworthiness. But I really don't know how I feel about women... I feel ambivalent and confused. I find them attractive sometimes, but I don't think a woman would find me attractive. I also try to think of negative traits I find in women to tell myself that they are not an option for me. I have excuses lined up for why I shouldn't pursue them: I'm too weird, only into men romantically, shitty at relationships, and I've never actually had a romantic connection with another woman so how would I REALLY know that's what I want, etc.
     
    #4 jjusa, Jan 23, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2022
  5. resu

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    I think you should avoid trying to get romantically involved with gay/bi men because most often they are going to blend romantic and sexual attraction. It’s not fair to them even if you think you don’t have to try hard; that sounds disingenuous.
     
  6. resu

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    And I would add most women are also going to blend romantic and sexual attraction. Many do not want to be viewed as just sexual partners.

    I agree that talking to a professional counselor specializing in self-esteem/worthiness could help a lot.
     
  7. jjusa

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    I would not get romantically involved with a gay man. As a woman, I would be involved with a bi or straight man, but yes, most of them would blend romantic and sexual attraction.
     
  8. jjusa

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    I think part of not willing to approach and connect with women because I'm still unsure if that is what I really want. And I can't confidently say that this is what I truly want. And other people notice that. I've had people assume that I'm straight or just unsure of myself. So essentially, that's what I think I am. If I have to work hard to prove to others and myself that I'm not straight, isn't that a red flag telling me that uhhh maybe I'm just a boring straight woman? Shouldn't it just come naturally? I don't see this issue with other true gay/lesbian woman. I see them discover themselves and pursue relationships naturally. I see it with friends and in tv/movies. That's just not me. Relationships don't come easily or naturally. Combined with the negative attitude I have towards women (not just thinking I have to be with a man), I'm just not into it right now and I can't force myself to seek romance.
     
    #8 jjusa, Jan 24, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  9. jjusa

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    Thank you for saying I deserve better. I'm trying to tell myself now that I deserve better.
     
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  10. Canterpiece

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    Personally, the way I see labels is that they are a way to describe a pattern. I use the label lesbian because I think it best describes me and my situation. However, if I were to unexpectedly fall for a man, then I'd simply start identifying as bisexual or a different label. I'd still be the same person, the only thing that would change is my understanding of myself. That's allowed. A label doesn't have to be final. Heck you don't even need a label if you don't want one, it's completely up to you. I just use a label because I find it a useful way to communicate to others what I'm interested in.

    When I first started coming out, I was worried that others would dismiss me as faker and that I wouldn't be taken seriously. However, I was actually met with "Uh duh" and "Yeah I guessed that was the case". Despite the fact that for the most part I am femme presenting. However, there was the odd jerk that refused to believe me. Usually either a straight guy who was upset that I wouldn't date him, or a paranoid straight woman thinking I'm after some guy she has a crush on. Anyway, I wouldn't get caught up on the concept of being a 'true gay'. There's no exam you have to pass. Nor is there one singular path to acceptance. I've never been in a relationship. Never kissed anyone. However, I know that I'm not a straight woman. Sometimes behaviour does not line up with our attractions. Does that make us any less valid? No. I know that I've had crushes on other women, that I've secretly wanted to kiss them. I know I've felt nervous around my crushes and that I've made a fool out of myself around them. That I've felt giddy about the idea of going on a date with a woman before. If my potential date doesn't cancel on me in the future, then I might even have a date soon.

    However, I never would've had the confidence to ask someone out like that when I first came out. Back then I struggled to even say the word gay. This was a difficult hurdle to overcome for me, I had to address my trauma (from homophobic bullying) before I could even come out to my friends, never mind flirt / talk with women (I would've just froze in panic). So I disagree that it comes naturally. Relationships take a certain amount of work. Still, it's OK that you don't feel comfortable seeking romance at the moment. You don't have to have all the answers. It's OK to take some time to figure these things out. Addressing your negative attitude towards women would be a good place to start. I wish you well in your journey.
     
  11. jjusa

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    Hi @Canterpiece. I think it's wonderful that you understand yourself, who you like, and are open to change in the future should that happen. You don't need to have been in a relationship to know you are attracted to and have a lot of self-awareness of your reaction (body and feelings) when you're around other women. I don't have the relationship experience either and I wish that I felt that I didn't need it to know who I am, but...

    I have a different standard set for myself that I don't know if it's right, but it's right for me. I can't call myself or identify with "not straight" unless I have been in a relationship and know more about what it's like to have a female partner. Also, having enough casual, sexual experiences to really solidify my identity. It's like a competition for me and I know that sounds stupid. It doesn't feel like there is room at the LGBT table for me unless I have more experiences and I'm able to get more relationships. Because I feel excluded, I also feel that maybe this is not who I am. The self esteem problem (the "I'm not good enough" feeling) starts to emerge again and I feel that I just can't compete in the lesbian/gay world. It's a standard that I set for myself, not consciously, but deep in my subconscious.

    Every person I knew/know, when they discovered their orientation, they have been able form relationships right away, and I'm just not able to. It's a very lonely experience. I would consider myself to be a lone wolf type anyway. I'm highly independent and don't really need a relationship. I'm hardly attracted to anyone. Maybe I'll never have one. It just sucks sometimes to hear about other people finding love and you never had it.

    The negative attitude towards women runs very deep and I don't know if I can really get out of it or if I really need to. I'm doing fine on my own and I don't need to have a positive attitude in order to survive. The negative attitude comes from past experiences and unless future experiences are more positive, I feel this will never change.

    Thank you for the warm wishes. I hope you are able to go on that date. You seem like a really nice person from what you have posted on here. I appreciate your help with my issue.
     
    #11 jjusa, Jan 25, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  12. jjusa

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    I'm also so so so sorry to hear that you experienced trauma, specifically the homophobic bullying. Bullying can have a huge impact on self esteem too, difficult to overcome, and it's a sucky experience altogether.

    I've experienced some implied homophobic bullying growing up. And regular bullying. It's made me more sensitive than I would like to be and fearful/avoidant of close interpersonal relationhships.
     
    #12 jjusa, Jan 25, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  13. Canterpiece

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    That's OK, it was a long time ago and I've had time to heal. I only mentioned it as one of the many reasons why someone might not be comfortable with dating right away. Yes, I've experienced regular bullying as well. I can completely understand why it would make you fearful / avoidant of close interpersonal relationships. People react to such events differently, personally my experiences (both with regular and the homophobic bullying) led to me becoming panicky around physical contact. Which I did manage to overcome for the most part, but even now I can be hesitant at times. I think that the thing is, sometimes when people go through bad situations, their brain can start seeing danger where there is none and it can be difficult to unlearn that, even when you know that logically the danger is gone. You know you're safe, but a part of your brain is always on high alert and it's exhausting.

    From glancing over your other threads, I notice that you appear to have intrusive thoughts. I do as well. For me, on bad days, it can feel like I'm in a competition with myself to prove the thoughts wrong. That I need a fully researched answer as a response to cope. I've realised that this is unhealthy and I am trying to work on finding healthier ways of addressing them. Just know that your intrusive thoughts aren't you, they do not reflect you as a person. However, trying to outright ignore them is a bad idea, as they tend to get stronger if you attempt that. I've also experienced self-esteem issues in the past, unrelated to my sexual orientation. Further, I used to be independent to a fault growing up. That I always felt as if I needed to do everything alone to prove my worth to others. It can be difficult to unlearn such things. However, I don't want to deter you from doing so. There's nothing wrong with enjoying your own company, but if it's impeding on your connections with others then perhaps it is worth looking into.
     
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  14. DinoTail

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    In my opinion it changes a lot of how deserving I am of the relationship. When I go through days where I hate who I am and cant stand being myself then I feel like the person I'm with wont ever love me or is just using me. I get in my head which ultimately causes trouble in relationships. I mean, after all, it is hard to truly love someone if you cant love yourself.
    When my partner on the other hand is struggling with self esteem it never changes my love for them, I do everything I can to help them and show them how they are through everyone else's eyes.
     
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  15. jjusa

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    I don't understand how you can develop high self esteem when no one has ever loved you (I'm referring to myself). How do you learn to love yourself by yourself?
     
  16. Canterpiece

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    Instead of viewing it as one big issue to overcome; break it down. You've likely become accustomed to viewing yourself in a certain light and although you want to change, you are also hesitant to do so, because it's comforting in its familiarity. A bit like an itchy sweater you've become emotionally attached to despite the fact you're allergic to the fabric. I like to think of it like this: a critic who merely whines and does not offer constructive feedback (or makes unfair demands, holding you to a different standard than is justified) is a critic who is bad at their job. Would you fire such a person? Most likely yes.

    So, why would you accept such a critic holding you to peculiar standards in your head? Your mind answers: Oh, because I deserve it and this is what I know. This is who I am. I have to meet this criteria to be acceptable but others do not. Others are inherently worthy, unlike me.

    You know this is unfair. Challenging it seems dauting because this is what you know. Maybe you're unsure of who you'd be without these patterns in your life. All I can suggest (aside from talking to a professional) is taking it one day at a time. You don't have to love yourself, simply being contented is enough. Walk before you run. There are a couple of different issues going on and it'll take some time to sort through them. Consider basic foundations. Are you neglecting your physical needs (food, water, exercise, hygiene, sleep) due to your mental health?
     
    #16 Canterpiece, Jan 26, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2022
  17. jjusa

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    So if I saw a therapist for self esteem issues only, would the sexuality problem go away as well? I won't think about it as much?
     
  18. Canterpiece

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    I think if you're going to see a therapist, you should find one that is LGBT affirming if possible. People approach going to therapy in different ways. I'd have a think about what you want to achieve from your sessions. Personally, if it were me, I'd write a short list of bullet points such as:

    - I'd like to address my self-esteem issues and develop a healthier self-image that is not dependent on others. However, I am unsure of how to do this.

    - Further, I'd like to discuss how my issues with self-esteem tie into my sexuality and who I pursue.

    - At present, I do not know if it is possible to change my negative views towards women, but I would still like to discuss them.

    - I'd like to discuss my intrusive thoughts and how I hold myself to a different standard than others and view it as a competition.

    - To extend on this, I'd like to talk about how I think of myself as not being a true part of the community and how I feel that I have to prove myself in order to fit in and be accepted.

    However, you don't have to approach it in this way if you don't want to, or you could bring up such points in a different order. I think that by doing so you could put everything on the table and then you could approach it by saying something along the lines of "with that said, I'd like to approach (topic) first, as I view it as the most pressing at the moment, then I'd like to work my way into the other subjects I've mentioned".

    Approaching one topic might not make the others go away per say, but you could use the opportunity to work them gradually into the conversation. I can't tell you how to manage your sessions since therapy is a personal process, but this approach might help.
     
    #18 Canterpiece, Jan 27, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2022
  19. jjusa

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    I think these are all great talking points and thank you for coming up with them for me. The first one especially I would like to bring up at a therapy session. The other four points I am not so sure because they are sexuality-related and I feel like I need to know my sexuality first before diving into these questions; and I don't feel like how I feel about girls is legitimate since I keep telling myself everyday that I don't want to be with a girl. Also, since our last discussion, I've been reflecting on my behavior when my self esteem is extremely low; I don't want to date anyone at all. Boy or girl. Nobody. I tried dating a few guys in the last couple of weeks, but I would always get bored or not feel anything more than platonic. Then I'm frustrated because why can't I develop the same feelings as my friends when they are dating? Maybe I'm just wired differently. I wonder too if I'm just aromantic and use self esteem issues as an excuse as to why I'm not dating. I don't think anything is wrong with not wanting to date but the fact that I've never been in a serious relationship, and I am 28 years old... and I still don't want to date... is kind of suspect.
     
    #19 jjusa, Feb 1, 2022
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2022
  20. jjusa

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    The intrusive thoughts and negative self-image you brought up, have been ongoing problems for me that I can't seem to fix by myself. I need professional help in this regard.