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I'm breaking up with this crazy guy in two days and I'm really scared

Discussion in 'Family, Friends, and Relationships' started by Lyman, Feb 11, 2021.

  1. Lyman

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    I provide some context, in case anyone wants it, but you can jump directly to the questions below...

    Had I posted about this guy some time ago, I wouldn't have gone through so much, but here we are. Let's call him Anthony because he clearly has an Anthony face.

    I really need(ed) gay friends and, after trying everything that I could think of but the apps, I managed to make three (but one doesn't live here, so it's like 2.5). I was super vulnerable and Anthony was one of the two I had here. At first, he was really helpful, but the dynamics between us have degenerated to an awful point.

    We don't have an actual relationship and we haven't done many things (despite his numerous requests, and his adamant attempts to "lure" me in disgusting ways). I'm totally sure that I don't like him and that I've never liked him, but the fact that I'm ridiculously horny all the time (I've read it's normal after coming out), my being starved for affection and his manipulative strategies made me do more than what I genuinely wanted to. And I've cried so, so much as a result.

    I've discussed the topic with three female friends and their respective summaries of the *ship I have with Anthony have been: "It couldn't be more toxic," "Rape vibes," and "I think it's some sort of sexual abuse." I believe they exaggerate, but I'm completely sure that I want to remove him from my life. Neither of them is super good at dealing with relationships, so I want advice from here too.

    I honestly can't tell if he's extremely malicious, or if all this has been a result of him being so fucked up that he didn't realise what was going on. I used to think option B was correct, but I'm leaning more and more towards A, as time goes by. I mean... He's 32 and has been with 60+ guys (I'm sure he lied about the number and my estimation of it increases and increases, the more information he gives away).

    What are the basics of breaking up?
    I've never been into a real relationship and I'm not sure of knowing what I'm doing with this breakup...

    What kind of weird and fucked up reactions can I get? I'm very sensitive at the moment and the sole fact of telling him that I don't want to see him (on purpose) again is going to take an emotional toll on me. So I want to know what kind of blows to expect in a worst-case scenario. Do some people go absolutely nuts with breakups in real life as in movies?

    He has issues
    with anger management, anxiety, self-esteem and abandonment. Plus, he's quite crazy (meaning unpredictable and unstable), manipulative, dramatic and immature (he's 32 and often behaves like a 16-year-old). He says he's madly in love with me (which might be true in his head, who knows?) and I have reasons to believe that he has been having obsessive thoughts about me for months (but I can't tell for sure, as I don't know how much he has lied at me).

    I know what my arguments are, I'm super good with words and I've rehearsed the conversation with my friends more than once. My concerns don't have to do with the talking, but with the strategy and the possible reactions.

    I've thought that it would be convenient to:
    (1) Go for a public place. I've thought about a bench in the main park of the town at a time when there will be many potential witnesses and when police tends to be around. In broad daylight, of course.
    (2) Start with a short summary of what the conversation will be about and then give my arguments, without getting into any non-essential detail. Then reply to his questions, if they aren't too many or inappropriate.
    (3) Ignore any sort of promises of change or of working things out. Unconditionally.
    (4) Avoid staying there to comfort him.
    (5) Leave the place if things get too ugly or into a loop.
    (6) Ignore his future attempts of contacting me, no matter how sad he says he is.​

    Does the above make sense to you? What would you add/delete? What has worked for you?
    My goal is to minimise my suffering, while not harming him more than strictly necessary.

    P. S.: I don't care about St Valentine's Day being the next day. We arent bf's, I've already had to postpone the breakup 3 times due to external causes, and I can't handle this anymore. Apologies to the staff for ruining the mood of the monthly spotlight. Turns out I'm St Valentine's Grinch, hahaha.
     
    #1 Lyman, Feb 11, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2021
  2. QuietPeace

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    I agree with your three female friends. You state that he has anger issues and more. Honestly the list of issues that you say he has sounds like Borderline Personality Disorder (I am not a professional and even a professional cannot make a diagnosis without actually talking to the person in question). With toxic people like you describe your own safety is the only thing that you should be concerned about.

    I think your best bet is to call him and just tell him that you do not want to see him anymore. Then block him on every contact that you have, social media, any apps, phone number and email address. If he shows up at your home do not open the door and if he refuses to leave call emergency services. If he approaches you away from home tell him to leave you alone and if he does not call emergency services. If he does not stop get a restraining order. Do not be concerned that you not being there for him to use or abuse will hurt him. Toxic people are incredibly resilient he will find another victim long before you stop feeling bad about this situation.
     
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  3. Lyman

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    I knew the chances of getting a reply with such a narrow margin were slim, so thank you very much for your take, QP!

    Wow, this surprises me. I actually left some of the worst parts out of the thread because I didn't want to distract the attention from the actual question. So I didn't expect anyone to actually figure how bad it's been.

    Okay, the way he behaves could fit the way I've heard BPD be described, with the exception of self-harm. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that a tendency towards self-harm was one of the main characteristic symptoms of BPD... And he's very far away from engaging in that behaviour — he's just not that kind of person.

    I agree, and the point of this thread is figuring how to reduce my physical and emotional suffering. But, as people don't own guns in my country and I'm somewhat stronger than him, I think that nothing too bad can happen in a public park, can't it? But maybe there's some possibility I'm not thinking of.

    I considered this during the past weeks, but my conclusion was that it's not how I do things. I think that a face-to-face conversation will be the ideal ending for both of us. I can control the situation much better, making sure that my message gets across.

    This is the smartest piece of advice I've received in a long time. I love the last sentence and have found it extremely helpful. Thanks a lot!
     
  4. Lyman

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    It's happening tomorrow (probably in the morning/afternoon; maybe later) and I'm starting to feel really bad thinking about it.

    On the one hand, just because I don't want to see him at all. Period. The last couple of times we hanged out it only happened because I didn't manage to convince myself to say "no" and seeing him felt super wrong before, during and after.

    On the other hand, I'm mourning my friend Anthony. I do miss the friend he was during a few weeks. And although I know he's dead and won't return, now dumping Anthony the abuser feels sad because he has the same face, voice and body as Anthony the friend. It's like attending his second burial.

    If anyone wants to give strategic advice in the coming ~12 hours, it'll be much appreciated. I don't want to feel insecure and chicken out! :grimacing:
     
    #4 Lyman, Feb 12, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2021
  5. old tacoma

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    If you chicken out, you will find yourself right back where you are at this moment. In a few days or weeks, you will restart the process all over again. Put him behind you so you can move on.
     
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  6. Chip

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    You are making the right choice. I concur with the others, I would be inclined to do it over the phone rather than in person, as you can then have complete control over the situation, and if it gets ugly (whether verbally or otherwise) you can simply hang up.

    At this point, you owe him nothing other than a civil exchange that the relationship is not working, you are ending it, and that's it. You aren't obligated to offer any reason or explanation.

    Why do you want to do so? Doing so simply invites him to argue with or justify or defend or try to refute your points. And if he is dealing with BPD, as you suggest, it's unlikely to serve any positive purpose. Giving explanations, overviews of the conversation, answering questions... all unnecessary for a relationship that is obviously unhealthy. IF you have not been seeing him regularly, he doubtlessly knows something is up.

    You might consider simply saying something like "I'm done. It's over. It's not open for discussion, I've given it a lot of thought, and it's a final decision. You may not like it, may not understand, and that's unfortunate, but does not change anything. I just wanted to state it clear and unequivocally, so we can both move on for our lives."

    That leaves no room for anything. It's surgical in its efficiency and doesn't prolong the agony. If what you are seeking is neat and tidy closure, I don't think any amount of time you spend explaining, justifying, explaining, answering questions is going to give you the closure you seek. Not from someone with BPD. It just doesn't work that way. The only way to deal with someone with borderline is to set ironclad, impenetrable boundaries. ANd the more words and explanations you give, the more you create vulnerabilities in the impenetrable wall that can be exploited.

    Also... be prepared for him to pull out the "Well, I'm just going to go kill myself then" card, as that's a pretty standard manipulation for people that act this way. The appropriate response to that is "If you're serious, I'm going to need to call 911 (or whatever the emergency police number is in your country) so that they can keep you safe, but I can't be involved." That makes the boundary clear, and makes it clear that you can't get pulled back in no matter what he says.

    This isn't easy. It takes courage and standing up for yourself. And it's also the right thing to do. Let us know how it goes.
     
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  7. Lyman

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    Thanks to both of you for your replies. Although I'm still able to make silly jokes, I'm actually suffering a lot with the situation.
    Anyway, it'll be over very soon...

    Exactly. Deep inside I know. But it's good to hear it from someone else.

    Well, if I had asked on EC about this a couple of days earlier, maybe I'd had time to think better about the plan, and maybe change my mind about the setting and do it over the phone. But now I don't have time to think if it really makes more sense, and I'll go for in-person being careful.

    As for the content, yes, my idea is starting by basically saying "Look, I want this, and this is what's going to happen from now on." And adding: "Because this and that." I'm not obliged, but it seemed to make sense to spend one minute with it and my non-expert friends agreed. But I'm giving it a second thought as I type.

    I think the main factor I hadn't mentioned to support "why I want to do so" is that we live in a small town, so I'll bump into him in the supermarket or at the bus stop sooner than later. So it's not as if I can phone him and never see him again. If I do it over the phone, the next time I see him can get uglier than the other way.

    Plus, I don't think there's much to refute, when I basically want to say that this is making me feel like shit and can't stand it any more. I'm the only one who knows how I feel, so I won't let him convince me otherwise.

    I didn't even remember that BPD existed before QP brought it up on her post. I only listed what I see on him and she suggested BPD. I'm a bit reluctant to accept it as a settled fact because: (a) my idea of what it is is extremely vague and probably partially wrong; and (b) there's absolutely nothing in him that would remotely indicate tendencies to self harm in the past, present or future.

    I would just leave it at "he's very difficult to deal with and has a number of issues that I can objectively see," rather than assuming a diagnose without having any idea of what I'm doing.

    My opening was going to look like that, but I love your middle part and will get some inspiration from it (and by that I mean plagiarising).

    Okay, just to cover my back in case the BPD thing was to be true, I'll make it more like "setting ironclad, impenetrable boundaries."
    Even if he doesn't have BPD, now that I think better about it, I can't think about him as if he was the kind of reasonable and stable person I usually deal with. It's not my first time making that mistake... In any case, I don't think any explanations will do me a favour.
    So the max I'll say is how bad this *ship has been making me feel.

    Thanks! That's the kind of crazy reaction I wanted to be suggested... And the reply you recommend is simply perfect. :slight_smile:

    I know, I know. Now I feel more sadness than fear, but it's still not great. Anyway, I don't think I'll chicken out. (Hey, that's one advantage of doing it in person — it's easier to cancel an unscheduled call than a meetup.)
     
  8. Lyman

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    P. S.: I'll report back!
    (My posts are so long that 5 mins aren't enough to think if I need to correct or add anything, haha.)
     
  9. Lyman

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    So............. I'm not proud of what happened, but here we go anyway.

    Due to several coincidental external circumstances and the stupid way I reacted to them, I ended up hanging out with him at his house for a really long time. The good part is that I managed to agree to get back one of my belongings, which I had at his house.

    We watched a movie and I managed to say no or physically avoid any attempt of physical contact by him. Literally even touching feet. I did enjoy our conversation before, during and immediately after it. And, well, the film was so sad that it made me cry more than once, so by the time it ended I started having doubts about delivering the breakup speech even if I managed to get him out of the house.

    Actually, I didn't feel completely repulsed by him this time. The last few times, just having a close look at his face grossed me out, like in "Omg, has he always been so ugly?? He's the ugliest man I've ever seen". But maybe it's just because he didn't touch me in any way. When he touched me the last time, even in the most SFW way, he'd made me think "Ew, his hands are disgusting," "Yuck, I really hate his forearms," and so on.

    He then started to basically turn our convo into phone sex, speaking about the porny underwear he'd just bought for me. I insisted on not wanting to see it under any circumstances (knowing that I'm an idiotic horniboy that might be turned on by it), but he showed it to me anyway. He didn't convince me to try it, so he said that I should take it to my home so that it didn't go to waste. I wasn't very much into that, either, and I was completely not into that when he said that it came at the price of wearing it for him the next day.

    Then the talk was more or less normal, but it went back to "all the things he wants to do to me," with the difference that he today said that he suddenly isn't romantically interested in me anymore (is he trying to make me "jealous" in a stupid way?), but only in my body and in "helping me have a sexual awakening." He also said that he'd downloaded a dating app, but then I told him that I'd seen that it wasn't in his phone (more attempts of the same thing?). The fun part is that he threatened me with not seeing me again if I ever download a dating app "because of covid" (sure, buddy). This is the third time I notice that he's trying to isolate me from my tiny chances of being in touch with other gay men: he's repeatedly said horrible things about my other two gay friends (despite not knowing one of them) and, when I asked him if he had any gay friends that I could meet, he answered that he only has girl friends (later I discovered that he does have gay friends here).

    I also noticed that he has a very strange fetish with being the first guy I'm with by something he said. Plus, today he bragged about how he'd managed to make out and do a bit more *repeatedly* with his straight male friend, who's very straight. And I understood that he'd done that with others "who'd never thought about being with a guy before meeting Anthony," though that part didn't sound very truthful. I found all that "virginity fetish" rather disturbing.

    After that, he started mentioning certain sexual(ish) objects he owns and showing them to me, but those ones I had already seen other days. And he described with amazing degree of graphic detail a long list of actions he'd like to perform to me. If I reproduced that passage here, the mods would have to delete it all. I think I'd have been turned on by being said those things, if it weren't him the one doing it.

    And that was basically it.
     
  10. Lyman

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    I'm seeing him tomorrow in the park, so that he gives me back that belonging I mentioned. I'm convinced that he'll do it for real.

    The only thing I need now is someone to tell me that what any reasonable person with a strong sense of self and worthiness would do is to put an end to this, by breaking up.

    Because now I'm filled with "Oh, look, Lyman, today you didn't feel like rubbish at any point," "Maybe you can ask him to never touch you and break the friendship up if he doesn't respect that," "You're going to miss his roommate very much, as she won't want to be your friend anymore" (I really like her) and the like.

    I'm even starting to think that I exaggerated when I thought that he's abusive and a predator, but it seems he is, right? There's no logical reason to maintain Anthony as a friend, is it?

    Ugh, I'm *so* inexperienced with all this... And losing 50 % of my gay friends here is a big thing.
     
  11. old tacoma

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    I sure hope you end it with this guy. Do this for yourself.
     
  12. Chip

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    The dude is manipulative and self-absorbed. He can't be there for you. You deserve better. (BTW, BPD does not require self-harm as one of the defining criteria. I've worked with multiple people with BPD and all but one of them had no history of self harm.)

    It seems like you are very prone to his manipulations, and that's a big part of why the short-and-sweet approach is best. It gives him zero chance to negotiate, offer anything, manipulate. "Here's what I'm doing. End of story. Bye." It won't feel good, but it's likely what's going to be necessary given his manipulative nature and your susceptibility to it.
     
  13. Lyman

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    You're both *so* right, @old tacoma and @Chip. Yesterday I was under his influence, after spending so much time with him. So I was being quite ridiculous, even more than my usual standards of ridiculousness.

    Today he called unannounced to drop that thing at my house, contradicting our original plans, and I said "Let's meet at the park." But the son-of-a showed up with a friend, so I didn't break up in front of a third wheel. I phoned him two times later in the day and he didn't answer.

    Then he phoned me back hours later, but I wasn't prepared for it at the moment and he had terrible signal because of where his house is, to the point that we had trouble understanding each other... I chose not to do it under those circumstances. I scheduled a meetup with him for Tuesday because I said I wanted to talk to him...

    Honestly, I prefer breaking up over the phone at this point, but the idea that he might not understand me well is pissing me off.
    Would it be a very bad idea doing it in writing? Once I click "Send," I'm done and can start forgetting this nightmare. Plus, he can't interrupt me.
    Or is it still better going for the phone?

    Agreed. Big time. I now see it clear as day.
    Does it mean that I have self-esteem issues or something worse? Or am I just an silly, inexperienced guy who is starved for understanding and affection?

    Objectively I know. But some subconscious and/or emotional part of me is being downright idiotic.

    Thanks! I don't know much about the topic, as I'd said.

    I now agree, and I'm going to literally reproduce what you suggested on your first post here.
    It took me a while to come around, but you've been pure wisdom at this thread (well, as usual).
     
  14. old tacoma

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    I’m making an assumption here about your and his phone services — don’t bother trying to talk with him, bad reception at his house or not. Just text him, and be done.
     
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  15. QuietPeace

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    This is called "hoovering" and is why I recommended not being in contact with him at all. https://lonerwolf.com/hoovering/

    It would not be bad at all. Everything that you have said including this latest bit says that he is a toxic person, it does not matter if he could be diagnoses as a cluster B personality disorder. What matters is that he is causing problems for you and that you need to end this. Send the message and then block him.
     
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  16. Chip

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    At this point, I strongly recommend doing it in writing. You may want to make it exceptionally clear that he is not to come to your house or call you, that the matter is not open for discussion, and it's done. Since it sounds like he has no boundaries (and yours aren't the best) you'll need to set some exceptionally clear ones. Even that may not work, and he may still show up. In that case, the hard part will be holding to the boundary: "I'm sorry, I said it was over, and I meant it. I'm not interested in discussing it." No matter *what* possible argument, justification, manipulation he uses, because he'll pull out all the stops. But if you're prepared in advance, it will be easier to simply hold to your boundary.

    Also, if he is, in fact, dealing with BPD, be prepared to be on the opposite end of his wrath. He may pull out every possible thing to hurt you, verbally. If that happens, think of it as validation of your decision.

    As to your question about where your proneness to manipulation comes from... it's worthiness (or lack thereof.) If you are not used to having your needs met, being listened to and respected (which, I suspect, is the case) then it's impossible to ask for them because you've learned, early in life, that to ask for what you need jeopardizes attachment... which, when you're a kid, threatens survival. This can happen *very* early and is an instinctive adaptive response. As an adult, this translates to pleasing, allowing yourself to be steamrolled over and/or manipulated. Because the message you got was this was what you needed to do to survive. (That's a separate topic for later discussion.) The good news is, it's not terribly difficult to work on and change. It just takes time.

    I think once this is done, you'll feel a lot better. And hopefully he'll get over it and let you go.
     
  17. old tacoma

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    @Lyman — Chip is giving you excellent advice. You can do this!

    @Chip — I indicated my “like” above, but it is so much more. Your advice speaks directly to me as well. Thank you!
     
  18. Lyman

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    Thanks so much for all the support and excellent advice, @old tacoma, @QuietPeace and @Chip ! As I'd said, this is uncharted territory for me.

    I did it hours ago, and have had and excellent day since. :tada::tada: Like in singing and dancing. I also spent most of it hiking with the only gay friend I have here now. Zero regrets and zero doubts regarding the breakup! Today's being my best day in 2021!

    It was in writing, and following Chip's words, with minor changes. I started with "I wanted to tell you this in person tomorrow, but I've thought that it's better that we do it in the cleanest way possible." Then I set the ironclad, impenetrable boundaries -- I told him not to contact me in any way at any point, no matter how sad he was, what kind of explanations he wanted, and so on. I said that seeing him was making me suffer enormously (without elaborating any further) and that I had to do this to myself, followed by a slight modification of:
    I literally ended with: "I'm done. End of story. Bye."

    It's cold and stern, but not cruel. I would have never come up with something as brilliant!

    After that, I set up my cell phone to block any phone call and SMS from him, blocked him on texting apps, and also on the landline number of my house. Oh, and I learnt how to create an email filter that sends him directly to trash.

    Thanks for the info! Now that I know the kind of person I'm dealing with, it's important to know his weapons.

    Oh, how do you dare to say something that is so...? True. :slight_smile:

    I'm taking note!

    I do see him being insanely angry with me at the moment. What makes me not be too scared is that he's probably too lazy to act on it in a really harmful way.
    On the other hand, he knows that the main way he can harm me is by outing me to my parents... The good part is that I was *extremely* cautious with what pictures, videos and audios I let him take and record, so I don't have much to fear.

    I'm not completely sure of what "having my needs met" means, but I think I do have them met on a regular basis.
    And, unless I'm under severe denial, I very rarely feel that I'm not listened to or respected. I only feel that way with my mom, but she's impossible to deal with. The only other exception I can think of is a few times that I've been to parties in which I didn't have fun (if I don't have fun, I become a grumpy, antisocial person). But at work and in social situations that don't involve my mom, I feel consistently appreciated, respected and listened to... Or at the very least not the opposite.

    Is this one of those instances in which Chip is completely right and the other person doesn't realise how wrong they are?

    On my own or with therapy?
     
    #18 Lyman, Feb 15, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2021
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  19. Ram90

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    I'm late jumping on the conversation, but I wanted to add that the advice the others gave you were very accurate. I'm glad you could gather your strength and end it. I went through a difficult, abusive relationship over a year ago and was not very strong to end it. It took me a while and help from others (my parents) to get out of it. So I'm thrilled for you. :slight_smile:
     
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  20. Chip

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    So, so glad to hear this went well for you. I think the steps to block him everywhere are unfortunate but probably necessary, and ones I would have taken as well.

    As for the "not having your needs met"...
    pretty much confirms what I was saying.

    Babies instinctively know that the single most important thing for them when they are born is attachment and bonding with caregiving parent. That's more important than pretty much anything else, including food, because without the help of the caregiving parent to take care of us, we would not survive. If our caregiving parent is not emotionally available (let's say they are depressed, anxious, stressed, have other mental health issues, or are simply not able to be present with their child for one reason or another), the child, even at a few weeks old, will sense this. It's a survival strategy that's hardwired. And so the child learns, pretty quickly, to ask for as little as possible. Don't fuss or cry. Learn to walk on eggshells and avoid conflict. Don't question things. Otherwise, the child fears loss of the attachment that is crucial to his or her survival.

    And children are inherently egocentric. They see everything as revolving around them. If mom or dad aren't there for them... it's because *they* (not the parent) have done something wrong. This pattern gets carried into adulthood. To an extent, your discomfort with coming out to your parents is probably at some level rooted in this same fear.

    Easier to deal with in therapy than by yourself, but you can certainly start by yourself. Brené Brown's three TED talks are one place to start ("The Power of Vulnerability"... "The Price of Invulnerability"... "Listening to Shame". Gabor Maté and Gordon Neufeld's wonderful book "Hold On to Your Kids" is another excellent place to start.
     
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