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The guys in my 20’s, re-examined

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by DecentOne, Sep 18, 2020.

  1. DecentOne

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    I’ve realized a couple things as I look back. 1. My interpretation of some guys’ behavior around me when I was in my 20’s may not have been as it first appeared. I jumped to conclusions about the way they acted. 2. I trust my instincts, but I also know I had a huge blind spot about things too.

    First there is the guy who followed me and the woman I liked (became my wife years later!) back and into to my apartment. She had offered to help me with a task, and for some reason he just overheard and tagged along with us. I was jealously thinking he was going to try to “steal” her affections from me. He definitely had the vibe of someone not wanting something good to happen if she and I were alone. She always laughs when she hears me say that, because he was of no interest to her (she thinks it is cute that I was jealous). So was he just awkwardly trying to get between us for another reason - did he like me? Sorry guy, either way, I am very happy she picked me and I picked her.

    Next there was another, about the same time, who kept looking at me as I was flirting with her (again, my later-to-be-wife, early in our budding relationship). I thought he was just thinking “no way DecentOne is going to get anywhere with that terrific woman.” He was a handsome guy our age, and always well dressed, and you know what, I was going to show him that yes I was definitely going to succeed with her no matter if he thought she was out of my league. Decades later though, when I came out as bisexual, my wife said she would have friend-zoned me if she knew I was bisexual back then (this was part of her emotional roller coaster) just as she had friend-zoned him because he was gay. I didn’t know he was gay. Maybe the glances were trying to tell me “dude, I’m surprised you are romancing a woman.” Maybe he’d picked up on a vibe from me that I didn’t realize I was giving?

    Then there was the hot young guy, college age (maybe 5-6 years younger than me), who joined a group I was leading. Soon he was making friends with everyone and offering to lead or host activities. I got really upset, I thought, “who is this young guy trying to barge in and take over??!”. I was thinking he was all Alpha-competitive, and going after my leadership. But really that didn’t fit, and the glances from the others in the group didn’t fit when I showed my reaction. Now I think he was trying to show off to me, or maybe showing what a great help-mate or partner he could be with me. Huh?!

    Finally, why did I like the guys in the rugby club? I am not built for sport (well, maybe badminton) and they seemed to like having me hang out, and I just soaked in their... ?maleness?. I still can’t describe it. Not my usual circle. I remember thought that it was great to experience: They were fun guys. Nice guys too, smart, and were decent human beings, and about to embark on good professional careers. They were rough and tumble, and I was not, and I’m sorry we never connected often enough to have become better friends at least. I didn’t interpret it as sexual tension, but then again I was pretty oblivious to that during that era of my life. Whatever it was for them, they accepted me, and I was glad to be around them.

    Do you look back and re-evaluate and reinterpret like this too?
     
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  2. brainwashed

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    I've greatly reduced looking back ever since I've a) started meditating per Buddhist teachings, b) to disrupt the endless cycle of looking back I wrote down everything I kept looking back on then put questions to what I was looking back on. (few) I forced myself to write answers to the questions. This way I track what I was looking back on, aka account for actions, trying to break the cycle of looking back.

    (again few)
     
    #2 brainwashed, Sep 18, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
  3. DecentOne

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    Hi @brainwashed ,
    Thanks for the reminder of Buddhist teachings. I don’t want my looking back to prevent me from being open to the now, or causing monkey mind. In some ways my Empty Closets threads allow me to express and then honor memories — and then move on from what I’m remembering. I’m reconstructing my life lessons, so that I can live as I am now.
    This gave me a thought about religion and LGBTQ experience, I’m going to go over to that monthly topic thread.
     
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  4. Nickw

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    @DecentOne

    I think it is pretty common as we come to terms with, discover or re discover our sexuality to examine our behaviors when we were younger to look for clues.

    I don’t know if you have close male friends. But, for me, there was a time in my life where being with other guys close to my age was very important. This was not really of a sexual nature. It’s part of a natural process where men bond for life. The guys I met during the time I really discovered who I was remain some of the most important relationships I have. There is a “courtship” of sorts that goes on between men while we chose those other men.

    What I have learned is that some men don’t experience this or don’t recognize it. I find this common amount gay men. Maybe because it is risky to form those bonds? Or, it could come down to just not feeling part of the tribe.

    It is quite possible that some of your experiences with men were part of this platonic courtship. It is also quite possible that gay men found you approachable even without it having anything to do with sexual attraction. It’s also quite possible some of your experiences were sexual attraction.

    I believe humans seek to bond with other humans for a multitude of reasons...some overlap. our reactions to other humans can also vary.

    I just spent lunch with my FWB. As we were chatting I was thinking of the ways men share and communicate. He and I have a relationship that encompasses all of the different ways men bond. In one respect I am a mentor. I am also a student of his. We are adventure buddies. We are casual sexual playmates and we, sometimes, have these very intense intimate moments.

    Your past experiences with men maybe were a result of feeling each other out to see where you fit together.
     
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  5. RD Spencer

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    There can be a lot of insight to gain by looking back as we become wiser and have a better understanding of why people do the things they do. Just be in a good frame of mind when you do and don’t dwell too much on the past.

    While I was aware that I was into women and guys somewhat, I heavily down played the importance my own feelings. But I was in full denial that others could tell. I was cocky and thought for sure that I could hide it from everyone. This is where looking back I can see how ridicules I was to think I could hide it. There are just too many times people have dropped hints, made odd suggestions or just seemed to ack very weird around me.


    Now that I am thinking of my past…..

    In my teenage years, often friends would tell me things they wanted no one else to know then tell me they were ok with me knowing because I was good at keeping secrets. I have no idea why they thought I was good at keeping secrets. Is this a hint?

    The girls liked talking to me a lot, but it was a lot of friend zoning. Looking back there was a scenario that very closely resembles a gay best friend deal. Clueless at the time.

    Everyone and eventually even I though my best friend Tim (not real name) was gay. He insisted he wasn't. Over the years I have probably been ask nearly a hundred times if he was gay. Even my sisters and their friends were asking me. I felt I had to be honest had told them that he has never told me he is gay, (For the record he really never did say specifically that he is, But yes, I am absolutely sure he is). The funny thing is none of my friends or family has ever asked me if I was gay or bi.

    At a high school party Tim and I were both drunk out in the back yard alone and Tim said some things about his sexuality, he didn’t get too far before getting upset and started crying and hugging me. I just hugged him back and did what I thought a good friend would do. On the inside I was freaking out and hoping no one was looking out the window into the back yard.

    At another high school party again with everyone drinking a really drunk friend I haven’t seen in a couple of years started say something about us going somewhere to jerk off. I was like well, my beer is empty and I am gonna go find a full one and didn’t come back. The closet door was shut tight and I had no intentions of being adventurous.


    In college whenever a new semester began it seemed like the women would be scatted in the class then in the first week would move to desk near me and get me in trouble talking to me too much. One class in particular was mostly men. I sat in the back and the half a dozen women were towards the front. By the end of the week they were all sitting around me in the back corner. At the time I though I was a pimp but in reality they probably just felt more comfortable around me since there was a lot of bros in the class and I had an easy going/possibly gay vibe. But one I did get with and eventually married.

    After being together for a few years my wife then girlfriend had a job at a grocery store. I would come by and visit her on break. Talked with her and her co-workers. One of her co-workers would always say that my girlfriend and I were the most unlikely couple and thought it was weird we were together. The wife and I were clueless to why she would think that. She was rather butch and I am pretty sure was a lesbian, so maybe she had a sharp gaydar. My girlfriend and I are both bi. thinking back I wounder what she was seeing?


    In our late 20s Tim and I were hanging out at a bar in the outskirts started talking to a couple of guys there. Later in the night they asked us to hang out with them at their place. Obliviously we were like sure why not. We hung out for a few hours drinking and I started thinking that it seems like they wanted something. I was struggling to put 2 and 2 together. Getting tired I was like its time to go. Tim and I were like later and left. Then it clicked. I told Tim that I think they wanted more than just talking and drinking.

    A year or so later at the same bar Tim and I happen to see a friend I knew from high school and his buddy we have never met before. We hung out, ended up going to their place and chillin there for a while. I knew this guy and it didn’t cross my mine at all that him and his buddy were not straight. It got later and we want home. A few weeks later I was talking with some other friends and mentioned who we saw at the bar. First thing out of there mouth was that them two were openly gay and together. I was like that’s strange, it seems like they would have said something.

    And then there is the work life.

    About a year in at a job in my mid 20s there was an older guy I got along with well. He brought up a trip to Europe that he was planning and telling me the details. He then says “so you’ve been working here awhile you probably have some money saved up”. I just looked at him like saved money was a foreign concept because I was broke. He pauses for a moment then says sounding a bit disappointed “oh that’s right you have a wife and kid”. Don’t know if that meant something or not, but he was very liberal, pro gay not with a women?

    At another job there was a co-worker that I was suspecting leaned at least a bit the other way. There was a time were talking though and he had a big word slip and called me sweetie. There was no mistake on what he said but I just casually played through like he said whats up bro.

    Started a new job and a guy showing me the ropes just outright ask me if I was gay. I thought for sure he was bullshiting me. I was like of course not, why would I be with a women if I was. Then he ask if I was a little bit gay. I was like seriously.

    We got along fine but it turns out this guy and half the company were born-again christians. When he saw my wife at the Christmas party he got excited and gave me thumbs up like I made his day for being with a women. This is what made me think he was serious when asking if I was gay.

    More recently at work we were throwing around a lot sarcasm when a co-worker says “well your part gay aren’t you” I was like what does that even mean?

    And at another time someone says “you have an eye for cock right”.

    I get along well with these guys and they roll the sarcasm well so I play along but it tends to be a bit centered on me not be straight. A guy that if been working with a lot out of the blue starts talking about how good his gayday is and can easily tell if someone is gay. He’s straight himself. I responded by telling him my gaydar was horrible and I couldn’t tell if someone was gay even if my life depended on it.

    The thing is do straight guys joke this much about being gay or is this just in my head?

    I have had my older siblings seem to drop subtle hints and a sister who is out not be so subtle but still not directly asking.


    If I didn’t know any better I would say I have a fairly strong gay vibe and If this is the case how could I have gone this long and not realize it. The only thing my wife ever said was that she didn’t like very masculine men. I thought for sure that no one could tell all these years. Maybe its a glass closet or the door is missing, or again just in my head.

    It is very interesting to look back sometimes.
     
  6. Bastion

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    Maybe it’s a good thing to look back and examine or view things in a New light or a different perspective. I have tried to do that. But TBH I found it to be somewhat counterproductive to moving forward. I don’t know why. Its supposed to be helpful in some way but it makes things harder to deal with the past and the present at the same time.

    But it is a good topic and interesting thread.

    Spirituality, religion and it’s effects on connection might be also a good topic for another thread like @DecentOne mentioned.
     
  7. DecentOne

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    This is great, I am pleased that you all have added your voices to this thread. I am glad to read your memories, your insights, your cautionary notes.

    @Bastion , not many are posting on this month’s theme topic about religion. I did post a couple times
    https://forum.emptyclosets.com/inde...-how-do-you-view-faith-and-being-lgbt.485383/

    @Nickw , perhaps the rugby guys were open to male bonding.
    I feel lost without a best friend, it is my biggest yearning (you’d think sex would be, but not in my case). I do have one male friend who lives far from me and we connected via Zoom recently. We have known each other for longer than me and my wife. He and his wife watched as my wife became part of my life from the beginning. I’m lousy about reaching out but try to now and then. He does too. I had reached out to some married gay guys, we got to chat over coffee (pre-COVID) about our paths and stories. I had hoped we’d get together for more chats (even my wife went along for a chat, the two wives sharing their stories and telling us guys to go away someplace else to talk). Could have developed more bonding if COVID isolation hadn’t happened. Guys from the LGBTQ hobby group have a Zoom social once in a while, I have not fit that in too much but feel cheered when I do. Not the same with the hobby group shut down though. Moving for my job didn’t help, I’m having to start over now in a new place.

    @RD Spencer , I really appreciate you opening up and sharing. Odd that your co-worker was asking you, in that way, and then cheering you on when seeing your wife. Kind of reminds me of a time two guys wanted to talk with me about my support of same-sex marriage a decade ago. I assumed they were partners and I was glad to say all my great LGBTQ Ally stuff, but turns out they were religiously anti-marriage-equality and on a mission to convert others to their viewpoint. Oops. They ended up praying over me.

    My memories keep me honest with myself, and don’t seem to be in the way of being in the now. EC is a good place to share and learn.
     
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  8. Bastion

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    I agree with @Nickw about the rugby guys. Maybe there was something there. You never know

    Also building and maintaining good friendships is very important, in fact, I think having a social life or bonding with a group of people who understand you and you understand them. Maybe have similar situations.and enjoy activities, go on an adventure, joke around. Have a lot in common is really something rewarding. While a sexual connection and intimacy is good also, but can get a bit complicated, or just casual. Maybe wouldn’t last that much.
    Its different than real friendships. Like the ones we make when at school or college.
    It’s a different kind of fulfillment I guess.

    Maybe both is possible I don’t know. I haven’t had that experience cause I had a situation like @Nickw once. Sort of like a FWB kind of thing. It didn’t work out in the end, the way I imagined it. And I was disappointed. Long story.

    Anyway my question is this? How can you tell when you meet people, like really the ones that you can say yeah I found my tribe at last. I find it hard sometimes these days to navigate between a friendship and more than. Sometimes the lines get blurred and you don’t know what is what? and who wants what?
     
  9. Nickw

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    I was listening to NPR on Sunday...Ira Glass. His show was "The Perils of Intimacy". It might be a good read to get a transcript of the portion of the show on "man dating". I cannot do it justice with my summary here. But, part of the issue was about how difficult it is for men to make friends once you are away from those college days. I know that, pretty much, all of my new friends have come from work. But, it is hard to keep those friendships going once you aren't at work any longer. But, those friendships and bonds that took place when we were younger seem to have staying power. This is why I believe that men do a sort of courtship that is similar to dating when we are in our early twenties. When I try and look for clues to my sexuality from that time in my life, I need to be careful to not read too much into those relationships.

    My FWB never did this. He is gay, not bi. I wonder if some of us miss out on this "man dating" because of our sexuality? So, those relationships just don't get to develop the way they should out of fear or not belonging. Being bisexual, I did experience this platonic ritual. The odd thing for me is that my wife will ask me if I had any romantic thoughts for my old friends (one is her brother). I feel almost repelled by the question. It is like a romantic thought would have been such a breach of the "dating" etiquette.
     
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  10. Bastion

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    @Nickw

    You know I can relate a lot to your last post. I have been through and experienced those platonic kinda rituals almost all of my life.

    friendships and bonding that you have mentioned are actually harder once out of college or the friends you make at work or if you change work or move. Or even at events you join.

    It’s like once this period and place and time that brought you together, is over. The friendships you made. The people you met, gradually fade from each other’s lives.

    Sometimes people make an effort to stay connected or reconnect. Sometimes Even if they do. It will feel sometimes that that phase is over.

    It is unfortunate in some ways especially when you think how close you were at some point in time. But that’s life I guess.

    Things are different, maybe in the perspective of someone who was gay.

    I know what you are referring to. That kinda of courtship or ritual and Male bonding as buddies. Maybe some of that for some people could have developed at the time into something more or not. It’s hard to read into the past sometimes and see something that was or wasn’t there. Maybe also the person or persons situation, their environment, at that time was holding them back or actually prohibited them from acting the way they wanted to. I don’t know. There were maybe too many variables that could have been at play.

    Things are sort of different today, were people are being more open minded and accepting I guess. But even now, there could be obstacles, there could be struggles, there could be difficulties. I know that, even my former FWB didn’t really approve of bi people.

    Thanks for suggesting that show. Seems very interesting. I will definitely check that out.
     
  11. Kevins1197

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    I’ve had that experience where maybe I was subconsciously attracted to my male friends growing up.

    In 4th grade I probably had a crush on a boy Derek we’d even swap clothes and shoes. I got in trouble for that.

    In middle school was the first time I got that tingly feeling around other boys and It was the first time I was accused of being gay and the first time I met another gay boy.

    Ironically my two best friends from 7/8 grade are both gay today, I did get a little touchy-feely with them and they with me. In 9th grade was the first time someone tried to seduce me questioned my sexuality. He to was very touchy feely.

    By 12 grade I’d at least admitted to myself I’m attracted to boys and this one kid in my tech theater class was so obsessed with the fact I played football he’d always want to feel my biceps, and I’d let him. Found out later he’s gay, it’s almost if I subconsciously let these guys flirt with me although I thought I was straight at the time.

    Also the girls I usually liked or were told liked me usually end up being bisexual or lesbian
     
  12. DecentOne

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    That tweaked a memory for me. I had a long unrequited crush on a girl in my grade, who’d turned me down. She dated another guy at least one year in HS, but after graduation I learned she was living with a woman and they were rumored to be in a relationship. In HS the girls told me she got really sweet with them when at parties, drinking. Years later I had feelings for a fellow volunteer where I worshipped. She never said anything, but later I think I got the impression she liked women. I don’t think I dated any women who were lesbian or bi.
     
  13. DecentOne

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  14. DecentOne

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    Found it, from when it originally aired four years ago. The only part that the transcript about Chris and Evan didn’t include was the final bit about Ira knowing what came of the two of them four years later (I just listened to YouTube, with the speed turned up since I didn’t have 18 minutes to spare this morning). They are the second segment.
    https://www.thisamericanlife.org/587/transcript
     
  15. SilentM

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    One time a guy approached me about my kayaking. He said he saw me and was impressed and since he liked this sport too he wanted to team up and train together for the race. I've said yes but somehow it never kicked off. Which I regret because I liked him a lot, a handsome and tactful person with shared interest. Looking back I've realized that he had the same manner as some gay guys I knew when they were gently hitting on someone possibly gay. So was he gay/bi? Did he got disencoraged when he saw me hanging with girls? Or was he straight yet a very gentle person?

    Another example: a classic, communal showers. Some guys don't feel comfortable about them because they are ashamed of being naked in front of other guys. Some are ashamed of their bodies more than of other people. And some guys are worried that they will get overly excited (so to speak) and reveal something they rather not. I had a friend who would never go under the showers with other guys. But he did watch us. Why? Was he waiting until everyone was gone and it felt "safe" for him to take a shower? Or did he like to watch bunch of naked guys?

    Recollections make me ponder about the prevalence of same sex attraction in men. Most researches yield small numbers, like say 5-8% admit it but if the research is based on declarations, then all of the guys who are in self-denial, confused and insecure will provide false answers - even if the questionnaire is anonymous. My intuition tells me that the curve should be different with very few people being "asexual towards own sex".