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Religious and LGBT

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by mellissa, Mar 29, 2020.

  1. Tightrope

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    This brings up the question that some people who have been dragged through the mud ask - "why would I choose that?" The right wing can't answer that.

    There is one odd quote in the gospel of Matthew about eunuchs and the way he winds down his discussion is confusing. The letters of Paul are also strongly worded and talk a lot about morality.

    It's good that people have spoken up against this and legislation has been passed to see to its ban. I am almost sure it is banned for minors more so than adults. Every state is different.

    There is a lot of discussion about this. There is a strong alliance between fundamentalists and Trump. They can't see what he's made of. When you try to hold this discussion, they either say things that are not rooted in any reality, rely on denial, or change the subject.

    I mentioned this exact same concept to a religious congregation leader. He nodded - lukewarm - but didn't seem to agree.

    There is a priest from Poland named Charamsa who left the Catholic church and said the clergy is mostly made up of homophobic homosexual priests. It may seem like it's an oxymoron but it's not when you think about it some more.

    They pick and choose. They can be cowardly. It's easy to focus their attention on sexual minorities. For self righteous people, they are an easy target and gives them something to rally around. I've read about the exodus from organized religion - mostly Christianity. They say that the longer a person has been away, the more difficult it will be for them to return.
     
  2. Unsure77

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    I can understand not wanting to let go of old friends. I still have a fondness for the church people I grew up with and keep in touch with them.

    However, do you think there might be some value in adding some people to your life who you have shared values as experiences with and can maybe be a little more supportive of all of you? You said it yourself. Your Christian friends wish you weren’t gay and your gay friends wish you weren’t Christian. Is there possibly value in starting to add some people to your support system who value and understand both? And who maybe have been either where you are or where you’re going as you need support and advice going forward?
     
    #42 Unsure77, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  3. mellissa

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    I want to meet people who are like that, but a)I can't seem to find them and b) If I did find any who were like me, I feel like I'm betraying God.

    You want to hear something strange? I'll tell you anyways.
    Another member here JohnDeere3020 quoted a bible verse and said things that really got me thinking that maybe I can start to reconcile my sexuality and faith. Due to that, for the first time in about a month, I opened my bible. I usually read my bible everyday but stopped and felt distant from God. However, yesterday I started to feel a little closer to Him. Then, last night I had a dream that I was in church and that my pastor was talking about how homosexuality was bad and that those who accept themselves as LGBT would face destruction. Today, I got an email from one of the pastors at my church and I didn't answer. I got a call from a friend from my school Christian club, at first I ignored it, but then I called her back because she is my friend. In short, I had a moment of feeling better and then all of a sudden it crashed. Now I feel like I'm back where I started. This isn't strange, just sad, I guess.
    I'm back to feeling that if I accept my sexuality, I'm betraying God. Yet, I feel that it impossible to marry a man and unfair to be forced into celibacy.
     
  4. mellissa

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    The long story above was a reply to you. I just forgot to quote you.
     
  5. Unsure77

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    That’s why I’m suggesting you try a different church. You feel like this because you’re in a homophobic church. You’re not going to find Christian gay people or pastors who aren’t going to make you feel bad in a Baptist church. If you want to remain friends with them, great. But they can’t be your source of wisdom or comfort or support. Not and have a good result.

    That’s hard. I know it’s hard. I went through a grief process over it. I’m in therapy partly over it. But, it’s reality. There ARE gay affirming churches. That’s where the gay Christians will be more likely to be. But you have to be willing to look for them. You have to change something if you want a different result.

    And once again, I would also recommend “God and the Gay Christian” by Matthew Vines. The Bible was not written in English in the 20th century. It was written in Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew in cultures vastly different from our own. What you’re reading now is translations (that aren’t always clear cut because the language doesn’t always transfer cleanly) from the eyes of a 21st century Canadian woman as opposed to the eyes of an ancient Roman or an ancient Hebrew. Matthew walks through all of that in his book. Just because something looks cut and dry in an English translation doesn’t mean it actually is when you learn more about the language and context.

    if you don’t have the time the read the book, watch his YouTube videos. Those are only maybe an hour a pop. It covers largely the same material. You want to know how to reconcile it. This is how you reconcile it.
     
    #45 Unsure77, Apr 9, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2020
  6. silverhalo

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    Hey I know this church is nowhere near you but I think it might help you to read some of their information and I think especially at the moment they have some services online. https://cathedralofhope.com/sexuality-and-faith/
    Then maybe you can try and find a church like this in your area.
     
  7. Unsure77

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    Look, here's the truth of the matter

    (at least in my experience...when I was your age) It was easy, when you’re a gay person growing up in a homophobic church, to want to blow that off. To want to think “it’ll be fine. These are still good people. This is just this one tiny issue. It doesn’t matter.” Because you don’t want to let go of the good things about those churches. You want to think you can still belong in this place you’ve loved your entire life. But, the reality is it’s no small thing.

    Being gay determines who you can love, whether you start a family and with whom. Those are life dominating things. And they’re things churches focus on a lot. Do you really want to be in a church that can’t or won’t support you in a healthy way in this thing that WILL be a major component of your life one way or another?

    If you think about it, you have 3 choices…all of which are life dominating. You can either 1) Attempt to fit in and marry a man you can never be physically attracted to or love romantically. Maybe even make some babies. You should go spend a little time on the “Late in Life” forum to see how that turns out for people. Not well. 2) You can stay celibate your entire life. (Which gets harder and harder as your friends slowly start getting married and having children and you’re still sort of stuck in time). Also, if your church's small groups are done by marital status, that gets harder and harder the deeper into your 20's you get. (much less 30's). Mother's day gets harder and harder every year. You relate to church people less and less because you're not married. You have different challenges than they do. Or 3) Live your gay life and have lesbian relationships and maybe eventually marry and start a family with a woman you love. And you're going to want them to celebrate that with you and support you and maybe even offer you advice when things get challenging. Are they going to be willing or able to do that?

    Those are all life dominating things. And you’re going to a church that can’t talk to you in a healthy, constructive way about those things because they don’t understand LGBT people and their lives, and they don’t want to. And you, my dear, are an LGBT person.

    Again, super hard to realize. I was in denial about this for a loooooong time. It hurt a lot to come to terms with it. But it’s reality.
     
    #47 Unsure77, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  8. mellissa

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    I know that everything you're saying is right, I'm just still scared. I've read the "Late in Life" threads and I know that a mixed-orientation marriage hurts everybody involved. I never planned on marrying a man. I just haven't reached that moment in my life where I can accept who I am and act on it. I'm in this rut, where I acknowledge that I'm a lesbian and that nothing will change that. Yet, I still hope that something might change that, or that I'll have the strength to be celibate. I haven't reached the level of maturity that you and other people on this thread have reached. I joined this website to maybe gain that maturity quickly, but it seems that might take more time.
    Although the church is a big issue, the next big issue is my family. I love them so much and we are super close (especially with my mom). However, they are super homophobic. If I could have their love I think that this would be easier for me to deal with. How did you tell your family? And if they were upset, how did you cope with that?

    P.S I went on the Matthew Vines videos and I have to say that it really helped me feel better. Thank you
     
  9. Unsure77

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    It's not just about the strength to not have sex. The choice that you're making by trying to stay celibate is to never get married. To never have fulfilling romantic relationships. To never have a partner. To never experience romantic love. To never have children. All to make other people happy? Saying they have the right to ask that of you is like saying you have the right to dictate to your cousins how many children to have or who to marry. Which, just because you want and pursue those things don't mean they'll happen. But you're deciding to not even TRY to have them. How is that ok (when you really stop and think about it)?

    You need to pretend nobody else exists but you and maybe God. Your parents don't exist. The people on this forum don't exist. Your friends don't exist. Your church doesn't exist. Pretend for a moment it was all gone. Nobody was there to judge you. It was just you living your life. Be selfish. How would you want to live it? Would you WANT a wife? Would you WANT children? Would you WANT to date? Would you WANT to be alone the rest of your life? What do YOU want? If nobody else CARED what you did and you just did what made you happy, what would you do? Because that's what you should do. And you should find and place people in your life who will support whatever THAT is. Because you're going to wake up 20 years from now and you're going to be the one living with those decisions. If you wake up and you're living alone and that's not at all what you want, it's not going to be your pastor's problem or the church ladies or even your parents. It's going to be you. They may or may not know and they may or may not care how you feel or what it's like in that moment because they will be off busy living their own lives. You will. A lot. And if you wake up 20 years from now and you're married and miserable, again, that's your problem. Not anyone else's. Same reason. You'll be the one living it. Not me. Not your mom. Not your small group leader. You yourself and you.

    I twisted myself into a pretzel to not offend the moral sensibilities of a bunch of church people who now live 7 hours away from me. I don't see them. It's highly doubtful they're worried about me or ever think about me because (because of job and school moves) they haven't been in my life in years...decades in some cases. And I'm still sitting here living with the outcome of that. For what? Why?

    I haven't told the homophobic part of my family yet. I guess the luxury I have is that I live 7 hours away from them. I don't know how that's going to go. But, I do know that (at 42) I'm done living my life (or essentially not living my life) to make them happy. I love them, but no parent has a right to ask that. They just don't. There's a whole lot I don't have figured out yet, but that part I know.
     
    #49 Unsure77, Apr 10, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2020
  10. Unsure77

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    Also, I'm glad the Matthew Vines video helped!

    The next thing I would suggest is googling "gay church". I think what you will find is a website that has a list of gay affirming churches in Canada and the US. You might maybe just look and see if there are any in your area. That or you can ask around. Just to see. Maybe.
     
  11. Phoenix92

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    I was raised Presbyterian. I found that I really lost interest in mainstream religion in around 2008. Before the recent major events(closings of non-essentials namely), I had found myself going back to the church I grew up in, the first time was back in October, this despite the fact that I am no longer a christian.
    My present dogmatic persuasion is that of Pagan. Claimed by two separate Deities, Brighd and Morrigu.

    For those who know the pantheons of these two, yes I have been claimed by two Triple Goddesses.

    But neither of them have any issue with my going to service, as I don't give my energies to the Abrahamic.
     
  12. TheodoreAC

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    Yes, Hello! I am Nichiren Sho Shu Buddhist and I am transgender man. I am not the best to explain this religion's beliefs because I do not really understand them yet. My family says I do not meditate enough so that is why, haha.
    My religion does not have problem with me. I am happy when I am boy. Why would anyone be mad about my happiness? I am not hurt others. I am not being rude. I am not saying mean things. I am just saying I am boy.
    I have not come out to everyone in my temple. It is not because I am scared what they say. It is language barrier that is problem. I know there is acceptance and I have no reason to worry about mean people because of my religion. I am scared I will not say the right thing and I will make everyone confused and not feeling happy if I explain wrong. I am not bilingual so I can not tell many people at my temple I am boy but I know when I tell them they well still love me. Is like family.
    Is very welcoming. I know 2 trans woman who go to my temple. They are very nice to me and no one says mean things to them. Even when they do not pass very good people still use right pro-nouns because It makes them happy and we live this life to enjoy it and make others enjoy life too.
    I do struggle some days about me being a boy. I get scared that maybe I am wrong and they will not love me when I tell my temple. My temple is my family. Even if I do not know everyone I know many people. (fake names for privacy) Mrs. Matsu, Mr. Okashi Mrs. Black. I want them to keep loving me, they are not my blood but they are family and I still get scared.

    For my emotions I go to therapy. Not conversion therapy, conversion therapy is scary. I go to regular therapy to talk about how my emotions and me and my therapist talk about them until I feel better and how to cope with my emotions. My feelings make panic and so my therapist tells me I do quiet breathing with someone if I am at temple and I am panicking. If I am at home I do quiet breathing too. It is when Me and my grandpa, or if my grandpa is not there then it is someone who volunteers, and does deep regular breaths and they hold my hand and we do not talk and I breath with them and drink water so I do not cry and then we sit and talk if I want to. It is how I deal with my emotions. If you are not okay with how you are gay maybe go talk to a therapist? It helps me and I have learned many things about emotions. Sometimes your first therapist is not the right fit for you so if you do not like them ask about another therapist. i have same one for three years and she is very nice to me and help me very much.
     
  13. mellissa

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    Welcome to this thread. Thank you for posting all of that information.
     
  14. mellissa

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    Welcome to this thread. Thank you for sharing your story.
     
  15. Redbud123

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    Okay, so I'll provide a little bit different interpretation here. I think the proper Christian religious stance on the matter becomes more clear, when instead of looking at the words themselves, look at WHY those things are said, and the intent behind them.

    First of all, I think the first and foremost will of God is for people to be good to one another and love each other. I think Jesus's teachings make that point pretty clear. All else is secondary details. The main thing that heaven requires is a connection to God, and an acceptance of truth, love and good acts. In the New Church, admittedly an outlier, God is not seen as a judge. You are not judged by your adherence to the letter of a law. Your acts are not like a bank account of good and evil points adding up. It is your own internal state of being that places you in heaven or hell. In my faith, we believe that we are always connected to the spiritual, and our spirit is connected with the part of the spiritual world that most closely matches our internal state. It's called correspondence. Like begets like.

    In our physical world, we are bombarded by a storm of senses, feelings, hormones and unwanted thoughts. I believe that our physical bodies are vessels, like eggs, which provide form for our spiritual selves. Earth is a melting pot of change, on the boundaries of both good and evil, it is not what you are born as, but what you accept into yourself that matters. Your physical body shapes you somewhat too. It puts thoughts into your head. Some of those things are wonderful, and make people into wonderful men and women. Others are destructive.

    I think the objections to homosexuality are unnecessarily bound to other, unrelated issues. One, the biblical story of Sodom and Gamorra, was metaphorical for a people who had abandoned God and turned to depravity. The mentions of sodomy are more accurately described as rape and pedophilia seems to be another thing that is strongly condemned.

    Other parts were concerned with upholding the social order, which was a lot more rigid in the past. (Men shall not be as a woman, women shall not be as men, etc.)

    While I do believe that God intended to create men and women as a set, to complement each other and to make a spiritual whole, the physical realities of our world make for a messy execution of that concept. We have people that are born with bodies that do not fit them, people who are born gay, and it is in these physical vessels that a persons soul is incubated. Male plus female might sound like a perfect match on paper, but people tend to be more of a spectrum of male and female traits. So you should to find someone who complements YOUR soul. I don't think God, loving as he is, could possibly object to that. The main thing is that a true union must be motivated by a sharing of burdens, an intermingling of spirits and love, and not be based around lust or negativity. As long as the relationship is true, loving, and healthy, I think you are perfectly fine in God's eyes.
     
  16. mellissa

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    Wow that was wonderfully written thank you so much.If you don't mind me asking, where or when did you come to this conclusion ? There is a lot of maturity on this answer.
     
  17. Redbud123

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    Oh, well, I came across it several years ago, a sect of Christianity that spoke to me. That had a lot of writings explaining things in clear terms and it seemed in line with what I had felt to be true up to then. It is called the New Church, which is based off of the writings of Emmanuel Swedenbourg. More or less, he was a scientist around the time of the enlightenment who became a theologian after God revealed himself to him and allowed him to see the workings of heaven and hell. He felt it his duty to write about it and share his experiences with the world.

    So, it's a bit out there, but theologically speaking, it wouldn't be the first time such a communication has happened.

    The thing is, there's a remarkable consistency to how he describes the workings of spiritual life and how it affects us here on Earth. They didn't have it when I started looking into it, but there is a wonderful youtube channel that talks about it now. It's called "Off the Left Eye".

    There's been a number of people you may have heard of that were of this particular faith. Helen Keller and John Chapman(Johnny Appleseed) come to mind. I would heartily recommend looking into it if you are having questions about your faith. I used to have a lot of misgivings, but these writings have answered all of my questions, and in a way I can feel good about believing in again!

    I'm glad you're interested, and best of luck with everything!
     
  18. Revive

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    Hi! I'm also struggling to balance my sexual/gender identity and my faith in God (I'm raised Catholic). My church closed down a year ago due to not enough people going there anymore. I still consider myself Catholic, but I haven't felt close within the community anymore.
     
  19. mellissa

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    Thank you for sharing your experience with us.
    I know you said that you don't feel close to your community, but how do you feel your relationship with God is going?
    Do you know if there are any LGBT-friendly churches in your area? Have you thought about going there?
     
  20. Tightrope

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    Posts mention not feeling connected to their religious communities. This makes me think people are following their religions but going at it alone. That's okay, I guess. What I question is whether a religious organization that has hurt people is worth going back to because of someone's ingrained indoctrination.