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Why is crossdressing an indication

Discussion in 'Gender Identity and Expression' started by Katelyn93, Jan 16, 2020.

  1. Katelyn93

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    Hi guys, I want to ask a sort of philosophical question because I managed to confuse myself good and proper.

    In my case, I came to the idea that I might be transgender because of an interest and eventually the act of crossdressing. It started at the end of my teens which often confuses me as to why I didn't notice it earlier or if that invalidates my transgender identity but that's another discussion.

    My question is, why are clothing an indication or validation of gender? I mean I get that it feels good and looks better but is it the connotation it has with the opposite sex/gender? Since ladies wear jeans, sneakers and tees more often than not nowadays, it feels like I can't say there'd be any difference but the cut. Even then I can't figure out why it "feels right", does that make sense?

    I mean it's about your body, the social expectations of someone with your anatomy or your hormones not correlating with your identity, and clothing is just that, I mean a cis man can wear a dress or put on a bra and still be a man.

    I hope I'm not rubbing someone the wrong way, I don't mean to say anyone is invalid, I'm just a little insecure and unsure about some stuff. I guess I'm still trying to find ways to cope without transitioning or looking for a reason why I'm not trans.

    Hugs
    Katelyn
     
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  2. Dreamsexul

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    I'd say it was because a large chunk of gender is performance in a social context, and because of the correlation between internal gender identity and the outward performance/ social acceptance certain gendered clothing choices just feel more 'right' than others.

    The idea that a cis man can wear a bra and still be a cis man might depend, for example, on the reason why he was wearing the bra, whether it was habitual, and what it meant in larger society. A complex topic to be sure! Basically, I agree. But if he was wearing it because of some inner need/ expression of an inner sense of identity, and habitually, then I'd question the cis label's use to begin with.

    Gender is a philosophically and sociologically complex topic, without a lot of stable consensus (IMHO), and you've highlighted an interesting aspect of it.

    I'm not clever enough to really address it, tbh, but I enjoy exploring these sorts of issues with viewpoints from youtubers I like. Maybe these might offer some interesting insights (but they're provocative and not to everyone's taste):



     
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  3. Katelyn93

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    Thank you for the reply! I will have a look at the videos and dig a little deeper as well.

    The concept that we are drawn to clothing by the inherent sense of gender variance makes sense in the sense that we associate certain clothing, cosmetics, jewelry, mannerisms and so on with with a certain gender, but as the social idea of what a man and woman is and the clothing choices they Don tend to vary as time goes on, it just makes me question a little more on how that would feel more right.

    I came to my own sort of answer which resembles your argument, being that it's expression, but wouldn't that be the expression of a stereotype rather than a gender?

    Honestly, I feel so feminine and I love that feeling when I'm dolled up and have done my makeup or I'm parading in a pair of heels, but I can't quite find an answer to the "why question" that satisfies me.

    I guess if it makes you feel less disgruntled than the alternative chinos and dress shirt with church shoes, it's closer to right. That's probably all that matters. A comparatively better feeling as such.
     
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  4. Dreamsexul

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    I think another contrapoints video, the one titled 'Beauty' will interest you more than the other two given your points above. She talks about how dysphoria and identity and the external beauty standard are almost inseparable. She wants to be feminine and also wants to be beautiful and these are so intertwined as to be hard to analyse separately.

    I think it as an expression of a stereotype, perhaps an archetype - the desire to represent (over-represent??) the abstract/conceptual feminine. I mean, in my experience a lot of non-cis women aim at a more feminine appearance than many cis women, if you know what I mean.

    Let me know your explorations on this, because it is a really interesting topic. :slight_smile:

    When I introspect I find that my primary desire when cross-dressing is to be 'pretty' - and I associate beauty with hyper-feminine fashion and mannerisms. I guess that the reason why must be a large part cultural (bright colours?), and some universal (face shape? high pitch voice?) ... You've got me thinking :slight_smile:

     
  5. Katelyn93

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    Honestly, I can relate to that sentiment.

    My weight and my efforts to change it fluctuate a lot. When I was at my heaviest and biggest I felt entirely disgusting, not because I find people with more weight gross but because I couldn't find a way to dress up or do makeup or feminise myself otherwise that felt good or right and it really caused me a fair amount of emotional distress. I didn't dress because I wanted to be pretty, and I didn't feel or see myself as beautiful in any way then.

    Trans women don't owe the world hyper femininity, and while I understand that I would likely have been closer to a Tom boy in the first place were I born female or if I did transition, I feel like I really want to push hard for that far away goal of being drop-dead-gorgeous. I want to go all out and be super pretty. I want to have that ultra feminine vibe about me because of my mannerisms and adornments.

    This makes me weigh being an unhappy but somewhat good looking male up against wanting to transition and being a happier not so good looking lady. I'd choose option two of course but will that make me any happier or more content, I don't know.

    This whole mentality though disregards that fact that there are many men and women who aren't model looking and yet are happy or beautiful in one way or the other and it doesn't invalidate them. This resembles the argument about feeling feminine because of the clothing you wear because it feels right, therefore affirming or indicating a potential transgender identity though.

    As you said, in this case there's more to it, the individuals in question aren't doing it for laughs or just because but due to what it allows then to express or how it makes them feel but that doesn't change fact that those feelings are ingrained in the individual and do not originate from the clothing, so even in your assigned genders garb you shouldn't feel invalidated. Yet I do feel out of place. Why is that? Is it because it doesn't feel "pretty"?

    Does this mean that feeling like you can only love the way you look if you looked like you do when you cross dress is a form of dysphoria? I mean there's more but that's one, right?
     
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  6. Dreamsexul

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    You know I really don't know how to think about that. It's complex and, of course, somewhat sensitive.

    I've never considered myself as having dysphoria, I just 'don't like the way I look'.

    But this is further complicated by not liking the way I look regardless of whether I'm homme or femme or genderpunked ... And made more complex by only seeing 'beauty' in others as feminine (whether male or female, it's the archetypal feminine I find beautiful) ... And even made yet more complicated by the fact I don't really like the human body at all in anyone, I find the concept or image or form gorgeous, but not the actual concrete, physical, fleshy, blemish-ridden, carbon-based reality (which disgusts me the more I think about it) ...

    I think I'm going to have to ponder this a while. :slight_smile:
     
  7. Katelyn93

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    That sounds very complicated in totality. I tend to feel similar things, with exception to the human form being non attractive, I rather hate the race in totality for being so horrible to each other, the planet and pretty much just the nature of the majority being so, yukky.

    The problem is I over think and then end up here asking these sort of questions. I don't know enough to try and sound smart.
    I am not sure if what I experience can be described as disphoria.
    I don't know if having only realised I had gender related issues later and not having any real problems before that seems related to me invalidates my current experience.
    I don't understand how I can be so certain I want to be or should have been a woman when I don't have any tangible experience of that situation to compare to my current situation that validates such thoughts.
    I think too much on silly topics I think.

    Honestly, I quite like your opinions and contributions, I think you may stay

    Anyhow. I have some research to do on YouTube it seems. Thank you for the links..

    Hugs
    Katelyn.
     
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  8. Dreamsexul

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    Thank you for prompting me to think :slight_smile:

    It'll be interesting to see what others say from their perspective.
     
  9. Hats

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    This is an interesting question. I suppose the easy answer is that for once the person’s exterior reflects their interior sense of self, given that clothes are designed to signal the gender of the wearer. Even though crossdressing wasn’t the route to me realising I was trans, historically a lot of my dysphoria has circled around the impossibility for others to see what I am inside because I looked too much like my assigned gender on the outside. Presenting more in the opposite direction has made it easier to deal with that.
     
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  10. gravechild

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    Yeah... there's some disagreement over what makes someone "truly" trans, and quite a few trans women I know formerly lived as cross dressers. Whether they identified as men with a certain hobby/lifestyle or not is another matter entirely. How many cis women would be truly comfortable wearing nothing but men's clothing for the rest of their life? Especially when society says "you must look like this to be a man or woman"? People get pretty uncomfortable when they can't tell right off the bat.

    Personally, things like two piece bikinis caught my attention, first, since they highlighted women's bodies and brought to my attention the differences between theirs and mine. So there was this "I'll never be able to wear that, my anatomy is all wrong" I'm sure from the very beginning, there were differences between male and female clothing, due to differences in body type and function, if nothing else. Probably varied over time and location
     
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  11. Katelyn93

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    This makes sense too. I'm more curious as to why, even before knowing why I wanted to (and several other people who have previously shared such stories) dress in clothing of the opposite sex without knowing why, and how come that, simply being clothing, ends up being an indication of a trans identity. I'm not saying that it can't be or that it hasn't led me to questioning further. It's just strange how there are arguments saying a man can wear a dress yet I'd wear one because it helps me not feel like a man, if that makes sense.
     
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  12. Oliverrrrr

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    A number of things come to mind.

    I beleive that gender stereotypes of some sort are established quite early in a childs mind, at least within the 2nd or 3rd year. What stereotypes? Well, the obvious ones to a child - parental roles and clothing would be the main two.
    It's then not a huge surprise that those that wish to express their inner non-birth gender will focus so strongly on clothing - it's the equivalent of wearing a flag, or sport team supporter kit, a form of communication, a statement of allegience etc.

    I'd write more but I'm getting hustled to come to bed. G'night all.
     
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  13. Phoenix92

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    So,
    With me yes ‘cross dressing’ did help in my coming to terms with who I am.
    However, I did see myself as somewhat gender fluid before coming to accept myself as the woman I am.
    several cosplays I did were female characters, much to the dismay of my mother.
    Once I got a little older, I’d “Girl Mode” it sometimes. That being I would go out into public dressed feminine, I didn’t know at the time that it was making me feel complete
    However, I’d never fully ‘Girl Mode’ it for work, sure, I’d wear a cute unpacked bra every now and then, but I’d never go fully femme.
    Hell, the last three Halloweens before I came into my own, I did a feminine character(the Halloween just before I was at a Halloween party and I knew I’d not be able to get home, so I brought my work uniform with me, the bra falling out of my bag wasn’t as awkward as it could have been).
    But the night I had my “this is me” moment, I had Girl Moded it, and because I left my house at the right time, I was able to catch the bus down to karaoke(it was a little over a mile, I could have walked it, but I was in heels, so....) but on the bus a little girl saw me and asked her mother “is that a boy or a girl?” (Not the first time I’d had my gender confused, sadly it wouldn’t be the last) but it did get me thinking. Later that night is when I had my “This is me. Oh shirt, this is me.”
    I then set up a meeting with work to discuss a major life change, they figured out what the purpose was before the meeting.
    But I’m rambling, I’m my case, yes dressing in the clothes of the (then) opposite gender, was helpful for my coming to find myself.
     
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  14. Katelyn93

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    Your story is quite amazing, Chesca. It's unbelievable how this sort of thing, clothing, can just be a costume for someone like a drag queen or actor, clothing for a cis person and an indication of one's identity or the expression thereof for someone in the trans community. As you said, you had some things going on before too, which I guess in retrospect most of us can identify and isolate in small and larger measures when we try but it feels like a lot of it revolves around the outward appearance and more specifically, clothing. That's just my observation.
     
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  15. cakepiecookie

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    As far as we know, every single culture for all of human history has had clothing/body adornments associated with different genders. So while clothing styles are arbitrary (men wear skirts in many cultures, for example), it seems that expressing gender through outward style is something deeply human and built in to our psyches.

    Another thing is that clothing is a cue telling people which gender we are. It's a ticket to (hopefully) being perceived properly. For trans people, this often means dressing more stereotypically masculine or feminine than our cisgender counterparts, seeing as we often need to put in extra effort to pass. Like, if my body passed for male, I'd happily wear flowery shirts and grow my hair out. But because my body looks female, I have to dress very masculine, otherwise I just look like a woman and will get called "she" more often than I already do.
     
    #15 cakepiecookie, Feb 1, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2020