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Catch 22

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by SevnButton, Dec 12, 2019.

  1. SevnButton

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    My wife and I are struggling to be happy together. She wants us to be open books to each other, no secrets, nothing private from each other. I think that would be wonderful, and it seems like an ideal partnership.

    Only, when I do open up a little and tell her something I haven't told her before, she gets angry. Saying much of anything about my M2M attractions is a recipe for disaster.

    Anyone else in a situation like this? Is there a solution?
     
  2. regkmc

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    Sevn - what would happen if you did exactly what you wanted to do?
     
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  3. SevnButton

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    Good question, @regkmc ! I think it would destroy our marriage because totally revealed, I wouldn't be the person she wants me to be.
     
  4. justaguyinsf

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    The solution is to stop doing that which causes you grief and heartache. Easier said than done, I'll admit. But in that vein, the impression I get from your post (and your previous posts) is that you and your wife are both getting something out of this way of interacting: you place before her a secret about your sexuality (not sure how much is secret at this point) maybe to make yourself feel less guilty and/or to distract you from other bigger problems (like whether to get a divorce), and she then uses that information as a weapon to then complete the circle and keep the arguments going and distract her from bigger problems (like whether to get a divorce). If that's what is going on, then you're locked in an unhealthy game with her no matter how you try to characterize it. (By the way, I'm not sure if "complete honesty" is achievable or even a good thing to shoot for ... how about making a pack of complete kindness and respect?)
     
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  5. DecentOne

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    Maybe for your wife it is important to define herself as not-you. Like a teen differentiating from a parent.

    Does this happen in other situations? For instance she says she wants to eat out (or get take out) and asks what kind of food you want, and then says no she doesn’t want that restaurant? Or some other not-sexual-orientation topic? If so, that means this isn’t about your orientation.

    But if she doesn’t have to set herself apart from you in other conversations, then I figure it is about your orientation (or the way it brings her fear).

    In any case, you need to be authentic to you.
     
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  6. SiennaFire

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    Has she shared the reasons behind her request?

    For this to work, you both need to come from a place of authenticity. I'd suggest establishing and discussing boundaries / ground rules before sharing more. If she wants you to be an open book, then gets angry when you do, she is sending a mixed message and that's not optimal. You may want to stop sharing things until you can discuss this latest interaction with her, outlining your expectations. For example, when you say that you want us to be an open book and get angry when I share my experience <insert details here>, I feel ...

    @Nickw might have insights.
     
    #6 SiennaFire, Dec 13, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2019
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  7. Jakebusman

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    How's married Bi life going ?
     
    #7 Jakebusman, Dec 14, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2019
  8. SevnButton

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    HI Jake!
    Truth is, it's pretty rough! It's like my wife is committed to the drama, so there's nothing I can do to make things better.

    How about you?
     
  9. brainwashed

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    OMG you just turned on a light inside my head. What is the light? My brothers wife does the same FUCKING thing. If I was next to you @SevnButton I'd kiss you! This rocks.
     
  10. SevnButton

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    Yes! Thanks @justaguyinsf , that's brilliantly stated!! Otherwise, why would we keep doing the same thing for 3 decades?!?! Most importantly for myself right now, what is it that I'M getting out of this way of interacting? After all, one of the common elements that has been present for the last 30 years is ... ME!!!

    What I'm coming up with right now is that I like "going deep" in my interactions with people, and I always have. I like looking into the depths of my soul and emotions and sharing that in an intimate conversation while we both figure out what makes us tick. At the same time, I am very guarded about exposing my darker emotions, like fear and anger. When my wife and I get into yet another one of these skirmishes, I get to engage a part of myself in a way that requires that I bring forth my very best. That can be immensely satisfying.
     
  11. SevnButton

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    Those are some really good insights, @DecentOne . It's hard for me to figure out which came first, which is the cause and what's the effect. But it seems clear to me that my wife is in the process of defining herself separate from me. Early in our relationship my wife was very much in the process of defining herself as separate from her parents, and she kind of jumped from their boat onto mine, living on her own for only a few months inbetween. Slowly over time I think I have morphed in her mind from being part of the resistance into being the oppressor.

    So, which came first, my wife's need to redefine herself, or my need to be authentic about being bisexual? I guess my answer it that it doesn't matter because it's all part of this process.
     
  12. SevnButton

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    Hi @SiennaFire -
    My wife says I need to be totally forthcoming because she feels I have deceived her in the past, and the only way to rebuild trust is for me to be a total open book to her. I think she's projecting, because she has kept some important things from me.

    I agree, authenticity is essential. I think the other essential things are forgiveness and understanding, or at least the intention to find forgiveness and understanding.

    It's really difficult for us to establish guidelines and respect each others' expectations. My wife complains that we waste time "talking about talking" instead of getting to the heart of the matter. And without agreeing to guidelines and understanding expectations, it's REALLY easy to go off the rails, which we often do.
     
  13. SevnButton

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    It's all too common. But it's really liberating to realize we don't have to engage in someone else's drama ... unless we want to!
     
  14. Jakebusman

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    Good just deep down wanting a boyfriend someone to hug cuddle kiss take on dates brought it up to her several times but answer is always no because it's not a godly marriage
     
  15. baristajedi

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    Hi sevn, it sounds like you’re in a really difficult position with your wife. I’m sorry she’s responding this way. You’ve mentioned what she wants and her motivations for those things, but what do you want? What are you hoping each of you share and what do you want to get out of that? What do you want your relationship to look like and how open do you want to be? And what are other things you want for yourself in terms of your identity and sexuality?
     
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  16. SevnButton

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    Wow, @baristajedi ,thank you for asking! I think I focus so much on preventing the next confrontation and trying to keep us from going off the rails that I've hardly considered what I want.

    Getting along with each other in my primary relationship is only the foundation for all the rest. I want to go deep into conversations where we truly connect, and afterward we're both amazed to realize we've been talking for a long, long time. I want to be able to tell my partner my deep, hidden secrets, while my partner does the same with me, and even though it may be a little scary, our mutual openness results in understanding and closeness. And this would be the foundation for whatever comes next.

    Part of the conversation would be that yes, I'm bi, and yes monagamy is an important value for me. And part of the conversation would be about how to reconcile those two things in a way that respects and honors my partner as well as myself.
     
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  17. baristajedi

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    this sounds beautiful. Have you had those elements in your relationship prior to you coming out? Has it shifted?

    In terms of being bi and monogamous, and reconciling those things and honouring and respecting that part of yourself, how do you envision that in your life and in your relationship? I explored making my marriage work before we finally decided to split and I know it helped us to come up with really concrete things to embrace my queer identity and needs. What would you like those things to be in your case?

    have you ever shared your needs in terms of what you want with your wife regarding openness and vulnerability that you talked about in your response? Maybe it would help to tell her what your needs are and then give her space to talk about how that fits with hers? It’s hard when you’re put in the position like you are where a partner is defensive, but maybe there are some ways you can work together to find where your needs meet?
     
    #17 baristajedi, Dec 17, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2019
  18. SevnButton

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    I need to be authentic and I need to have friends. I want to include my wife in my authenticity in a mutually respectful way. I don't need to have sex with anyone outside of my marriage, even if I do like thinking about it.
    This is the work in progress. Saying I would love to have that level of openness is easy, Understanding and overcoming the obstacles to that openness is daunting.

    I have not ever achieved that level of openness, authenticity and vulnerability with my wife, not at the level that I crave. I DID have it with a girlfriend when I was in my 20's. I was devastated when she left me. Hey! maybe that has something to do with why it's not happening now.
     
  19. Jakebusman

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    did you see my post