I came out at age 54 last February. What brought me out of the closet? This much younger guy who works as a bartender. He's young enough to be my son, yet he projects an "old soul" sensibility -- and a certain sadness that makes me just want to hug him and tell him everything will be OK. I am drawn to him like nothing I've ever experienced. I feel like I've known him in a past life, or that we are kindred spirits. Indeed, there is a deeply emotional if not spiritual aspect. In my earlier infatuated, manic state, I tried asking him out on a "date" a couple of times, but botched it royally. I really don't have experience asking people out! Even though I'm 55 now, I feel like some awkward junior high kid. I get it that he's probably not interested in "dating" me. But I'd be elated to be "just friends". How do I communicate this? Do I say, "hey, wanna go get a drink -- as just friends -- and hang out?" I guess I'm afraid of asking him if he wants to be "just friends" because, if he doesn't, then I'll feel like I couldn't go to his bar anymore without feeling really awkward. And I'd be sad if I couldn't at least see him "professionally".
Hi, and welcome! You're definitely in the right place. First, I really admire you for going for the gold and asking him out, even if you botched it. It takes a lot of courage, especially when you were just coming out. I'm not sure you're going to like the answer I'm going to give you here. First, bartenders are used to being hit on by absolutely everyone. It pretty much comes with the territory, and so they learn to be relatively polite... perhaps more polite than they'd be were they not in a professional role. Second, if you've already asked him out twice, and he's said no... my guess would be that you've already made him somewhat uncomfortable, and so asking him to 'be friends' would probably not yield the positive response you're seeking. Third, while this may not be your intent, any gay 25 year old bartender has been asked out, or asked to "just be friends" by probably at least a couple hundred older guys. Unfortunately, there's this almost predatory behavior that many older gay men display toward younger guys. And the result is that most younger guys are super suspicious, and therefore won't show even the slightest interest, because they've heard the "just be friends" thing a thousand times, and 999 of those, that isn't what the guy actually means. So I fully understand the desire and intent, even if it is 100% innocent. But I don't think it's likely to succeed, and if you feel like it would be awkward to ask and be turned down, it might be better to simply not ask. As an alternative, you could simply spend time at the bar and get to know some people and perhaps, over months or a year or more, you could cultivate a connection to the place where it might naturally occur. But even then, I wouldn't count on it, simply because of the nature of bar culture and what bartenders have to deal with on a daily basis.
Interesting thread. Still digesting. Deep down I'm trying to figure out what drives, (@Chip) "there's this almost predatory behavior that many older gay men display toward younger guys."
Let me see if I can respond with some reasons: First, many older gay men never had a proper adolescence. Their emotional maturity had been suspended until such time that they embrace their sexuality. Once embraced, a “second adolescence” occurs. During this second adolescence such older gay guys emotional maturity starts to develop but from a point where it had stopped developing. Hence a natural gravitation towards younger guys were similar levels of emotional maturity are perceived. As ones emotional maturity matures in a now healthier way, it could be expected that attractions would also mature away from younger guys and towards more age appropriate guys. Second, The desire to retain youth by being attracted to youth, very common in the gay community. There might be some level of low self esteem, self respect or self worth contributing to a persons desire to retain youth by dating youth. This may not be the healthiest of situations. But as an individual works to improve their own self confidence, it could be expected that such youth attraction may evolve to more age appropriate attraction. And, Third, some combination of the fist and second. curious what others think?
I generally agree with your comments, but I think characterizing older gay men as "predatory" toward younger gay men is wrong and probably ageist. In my personal experience, I've found that younger gay men often can be quite aggressive in pursuing older gay men (such as myself), and I wonder if you'd call that being "predatory." The same rules apply regardless of age: be polite and considerate, don't ignore signals of disinterest, and when you see them back off. To behave otherwise is rude and disrespectful, but I would save the word "predatory" for situations of blatant stalking and harassment.
I know you addressed this to Chip, but it is a topic I seem to have experience in as you describe. I concur there are many younger guys with father figure issues that pursue older gay guys. I don’t consider it “predatory” when this happens so long as the older guy, as you suggest, treats the younger guy with respect and does not do any emotional damage to such younger guy. Like you, I am constantly perceived as a “father figure” and hit on by younger guys. There seems to be commonality with these younger guys where for some reason or another they have been absent a father figure in their lives and are in search for someone to provide unconditional love. Unfortunately, I am not sure such unconditional love exists unless there is a direct blood relationship (I.e. actual father and son).
In fairness, Chip is only repeating what many younger gay men have said after being relentlessly pursued by an older man/men who seem unwilling or unable to take no for an answer. Yes it [predatory] is a powerful word, but it's a word I have also heard younger gay men use when they have been incredibly discomforted by the attention of older gay men. Having said that, I do concede that it is a two way street and some younger gay guys are equally pushy and clingy towards some older men.
I'm not sure I would say that every younger guy who hits on an older guy has "father issues" ... seems unnecessarily judgmental to me and I don't like to speculate about the mental states of other people. But I agree with you that respect should definitely go both ways. Interestingly, about a year ago I was heavily pursued by a young guy at my gym to the point that I had to gently rebuff him, but I never considered him to be "predatory." I think that may be because when you're more "seasoned" by life you know how to handle yourself in many different situations so there's less tendency to overreact. Just enjoying it for what it is while it lasts!
Int I specifically chose the term “many” and not “every” for that specific reason. Whereas I have come across many, and most of them I have come across had such issues. But I am sure there are some that just are attracted to more mature guys in a healthy way.
Thank you, all, for your feedback thus far. The "second adolescence" is indeed something that rings true in my situation. I think I have a lot of work to do on my self, in order to mature and get in sync with guys closer to my own age. That said, I do have to take issue with the word "predatory". I have been extremely cognizant of being polite and respectful. I have not communicated anything -- either verbally or non-verbally -- that could be considered lewd or even overly enthusiastic. However, I will admit that I am guilty of continuing to frequent the bar to get a "hit" of my guy. I average going there about once a week, and stay for up to two hours while nursing a two or three beers. While I want to just stare at him the whole time, I do my best to act nonchalant and casual, and usually gaze off to wherever he isn't at any moment. OK, yes, I do look at him, but very judiciously. Perhaps I should elaborate on the things I have said in the past -- some of which I wish I hadn't. There were two times when I moved the conversation beyond casual chit-chat. The first time, I had said to him, "hey, I'd like to hear more about your vacation; you wanna get a drink someplace else, after your shift, and tell me more about it?" He said, rather sadly, "oh, I think I have to work a double shift today". I was horribly disappointed (in fact, later, in the privacy of my car, I had a real meltdown!), but I left graciously with a "maybe some other time" stance. I forget what I said exactly, but I tried very hard to not let him perceive how crushed I was! The second time was the time I wish I could take back. As I walked into the bar, the manager saw me and said something like, "hey, he's in there; behave yourself!" or "be good!" That kind of threw me. After I sat down, my guy asked if I'd like "the usual" (I have a favorite draft beer), I decided to switch things up and asked for a Moscow Mule. A few minutes later, I notice my guy huddled in a corner with his manager, and there is quite a long and hushed discussion about something. The manager comes over to me and says, "I've sent him on lunch, but I'll be taking care of you...", while my guy disappears. He's gone for what seems like an eternity! I order a second Moscow Mule and finally, my guy comes back from "lunch". But he's running around and keeping very busy. All the while, I'm getting drunk and struggling to get up my nerve to say something to him, which I finally do. I call him over, and ask, "hey, you know why I'm always coming here, don't you?" And he innocently asks, "oh, because it's cheaper here?" He's playing dumb. Or at least I think he is. Before I can stop myself, I blurt out, "no, it's because you're here!" OMG what have I done? I panic, and start to back-peddle and get all flustered and apologize all over the place. I say something like, "oh, I'm sorry, I don't mean to put you on the spot, I'm sorry..." I then add, "and besides, you're probably already 'taken'..." This is the interesting part, because he smiles coyly and says, "well, not really" Surprised, I say something like "oh, how come?" -- with the intent of complimenting him, implying that for sure someone has snatched him up. Then the weirdest part of the exchange comes. He replies, "...because SHE works here..." At least, I think that he said "SHE". I also add something like, "you just seem so nice and someone I could talk with, and I'd like to talk with you..." He just kinda slightly smiles at me, with a look of sympathy on his face. I keep apologizing. The nicest part of the conversation comes when he tells me, "oh, it's OK, you're fine; you're fine". I wonder if he realizes that it's the booze that's doing my talking for me. I also figure, that compared to all sorts of other things he's heard people say to him, that my feeble attempt to "ask him out" is quite innocuous. Because really, I didn't say much, and certainly nothing disrespectful. And he didn't act upset, or scoff, or roll his eyes, or anything like that. At least, I don't think he did. And he just starts running around again and polishing glassware and there was really no conclusion to our exchange. So I'm sitting there feeling embarrassed and awkward and disappointed. I sit there for quite a while, kind of stunned and not sure what to do. But I finally pay my tab and leave with as much dignity as possible. And like the first time I proposed getting together, I did my best to remain casual and not let him tell how crushed I was. As I leave, I say something like, "OK, thanks, see you next time" and then add a little "and maybe we can get a beer some other time". After I leave the bar, I kinda wander around in a daze and I call up a new gay acquaintance of mine to debrief. It's been about six months since that last awkward exchange. I stayed away for a few weeks, but started going back. And then, I took a vacation and I think it was close to two months' time that I didn't see him. Of course, I slowly resumed my "habit". During the last few visits, I've felt better about the situation. Because firstly, the manger (who had told me to "behave myself" earlier) came over and gave me a hug and shook my hand and told me how good it was to see me. That made me feel redeemed, and like that earlier admonition to "be good" wasn't as serious as I'd thought. Also, I've gotten to know some of the other bartenders there, and have maintained a very friendly, casual vibe. I feel like I've become a "friend of the bar". I've also tried to remain casual with my guy. In fact, most recently, we chatted more than we ever had, about things like one of his tattoos, and sports he likes (snowboarding), etc. So, I felt like I got to know him a bit more. And he didn't seem like he was avoiding me, as much as he has before. I mean, he's always been very polite and professional, but this last time, it just seemed easier. I told my cousin about it, and her comment to me was that I am establishing myself as a non-needy person. A ha! I should also mention this: I don't think about sex with this guy. I think about looking into his eyes, holding him, cuddling, and maybe -- maybe kissing. But that is it! If we could just sit next to each on a couch, and talk about life, I would be beyond happy! Thank you, dear reader, for getting through this essay!
People might not like what I put but here goes. I had a three month relationship with a guy this summer. I was 43 and he was 26. Yes sexually it was amazing but all the other puzzle pieces were missing. I know it was only about 17 years difference but on some levels we were a generation apart. Would only go with a young guy for hookups. I'm looking for a long term partner but would not chose a guy so young again.
I think this is a great post. It shows a lot of thought. I don't know if it's what some or a lot of men and women who are in similar situations want to hear. I agree with the first part. I do see some sort of stunting. Being attracted to youth may not be so bad when it means someone is applying to oneself. That would imply going to exercise, dressing in a way that works with what you have and flatters you, and this type of focus. I think many men do this. Or want to. It's probably a lot higher among G/B men. Some hetero men let themselves go, and some don't. I know of a guy who got the hair implants or transplants. He has always been single and I really don't have a good read on his sex life or wiring. This doesn't matter. A friend of mine (who doesn't take care of himself at all) but has a real thick head of hair had to criticize him for doing this. This friend of mine is way more narrow minded than my other friends. I told him that the guy who got the work done on his scalp did what he wanted to do and "good for him." I can get along with people of different ages but, as far as the people I usually spend time with, they are usually 5 years on either side of me. And it's been like that since I was about 35. People who mature but don't adjust the age bracket of the objects of their affection upward as the years go on are likely to be disappointed.
Note that I said "Many" and not "all". To give you just one example: I was speaking with a 22 year old EC member who was, prior to EC, on a bunch of other message boards, and we got to talking about predatory behavior. I asked him what percentage of private messages he got he considered predatory (asking for nude pics, wanting to hook up, etc). He first said he guessed about 2/3, but then said "Let me look." He reported back that after checking, all but two of the dozens of messages he'd gotten from older guys were what he considered predatory (as in, asking for nude pics, hookups, inappropriate sexually explicit questions, etc.) Additionally, in talking with many younger gay men (ones who are not even slightly interested in older guys), 100% of them have told me they have, on multiple occasions, been hit on... sometimes subtlely, often really aggressively, by older guys, and that often, the older guys are super persistent, invasive of personal space, and downright predatory. I would venture that if someone were to do some sort of reasonably controlled study, that the numbers would be pretty consistent with this. Probably not 100% but high 90s. No, I would not, because the inherent imbalance of power does not exist in the reverse setting. Young people are, at least to an extent, conditioned by society to be somewhat deferential and respectful of their elders. The reverse, especially the deferential aspect, is not the case. That said, I will absolutely agree that there are some younger guys who are aggressive toward older men, and I'll argue (and probably get fierce counter-argument) that nearly all of these are people who have unaddressed emotional/psychological issues with male parenting figures, and/or are seeking "sugar daddy" types. That doesn't make it any better, nor does it validate or justify the behavior, but it's basically apples-and-oranges; most of the younger people are likely seeking out something to fulfill an unmet psychological need arising from, essentially, an attachment disorder, while most of the older men are likely doing so out of a desire for control and manipulation, and/or, as has been mentioned, to address a "second adolescence". Both are unacceptable. And the reality is, the older person has a lot life experience and will, in general, be a lot more capable of manipulating the younger person. And that is, in my opinion, what makes the difference.
I think 'predatory' went too far- I think there is a general issue here that almost every middle aged man needs to recognize whether they are gay or straight: The cute, nice, young waitress/waiter/bartender is paid to be nice to you and is just trying to make a living.... Again, removing sexuality from it- it's one of the most tiresome but true cliches the cute waitress and the lonely middle aged guy- who starts to project all his fantasies on her. I don't think this is predatory - but it can get overly aggressive, especially when alcohol is involved.
@BlueBoy2 I understand what it is like to be a infatuated with a younger man. Shortly after my wife agreed to a limited open marriage, I met a 26 year old on an app. I was 58 at the time. I was smitten with him. He was just so confident in his sexuality and such a fun guy to hang out with. After a number of "hookups" where we just had a beer, I finally built up the courage to hit on him. He turned me down. I was just devastated. But, I realized that the reason he was interested in me was because I was just a source of shelter and care. That was OK. He, eventually, moved away. A couple years later I was hanging out with some friends of mine to go skiing. The doorbell rings and there this guy is. Turns out he was best friends with one of my friends and was in town for the weekend. We spent the day skiing together. I had gotten over him, from a sexual attraction standpoint. But, what drew us together to begin with was still there and to this day we chat every couple of weeks. Some of us are just attracted to younger men. My boyfriend is 28 years my junior and my first real experience with a man was with a 22 year old when I was 58. I just spent a couple hours on the phone with him the other day. I am aware of what I bring to the table and what the initial attraction they have for me. That is that I am a source of nurture and care for men who never really received it from their fathers. My attraction is a mixture of this need I have to mentor younger people and sexual desires that seem embedded from my youth. It's an odd mix. Even though I don't practice what I preach. I think these sorts of relationships can be very problematic. I tend to be attracted to young men with unfulfilled potential. All three of the younger men I have been with are in my professional field. I am attracted to them because I want to guide them to succeed. Part of that success is that they begin to challenge me...professionally and emotionally. When this happens, I feel so satisfied. As older men, we can have a lot of power over a vulnerable younger man. We have to be very careful not to hurt these guys. It would be so easy to manipulate them into relationships of submission. Considering their life experience, this would be a horrible thing to do.
I was going to make the same point about not misreading that someone in the hospitality industry is being kind or nice as a sign of any greater interest other simply doing their job. It sounds like that may be what the OP is experiencing. As for the word "predatory," I think there is a significant consensus that the young people coming of age today are rather easily "triggered" (hence the ever-popular term "snowflake"), and there is also a tendency today to label and characterize behaviors in a dramatic or extreme way, perhaps because it gives one a good story to post. But that doesn't turn garden-variety boorishness and rude behavior into "predation." Rather than swooning because someone makes an oafish request or suggestion on the interwebs (imagine!) I would propose deleting, blocking, and moving on.
I absolutely agree that there's a really serious problem with many older teens/young adults being hypersensitive and easily triggered, which is a direct byproduct of helicopter parenting and the "self esteem movement" in child rearing, that we now realize was an absolute disaster. That said, I absolutely stand by the term 'predatory', and having observed some of those behaviors firsthand, having ripped a few of such predatory types a new asshole and so completely shamed them that they left the establishment, and having heard in vivid detail the sorts of behaviors that rise way beyond boorish or oafish, I do not think it is minimizing to say that. And before anyone makes ageist assumptions... I'm part of the age class of the very folks I'm talking about who behave that way. I cannot tell you how many young gay guys I've spoken to or become friends with who have told me that I am, literally, the *only* older gay male they've ever met who hasn't hit on them or otherwise been inappropriate in some way. While I know that isn't objectively true in the broad sense, it is all the more reason I find it really disheartening.
I would absolutely go with the term predatory. To be honest I sort of wonder if anyone who objects to it was actually out and about in their early twenties, because I don't know anyone who was (including my self and my husband) who would object to the term. As to the idea that it's a product of this particular generation, well, at least half the people I know who were out as young people did so twenty or thirty years ago. It's a thing. It's not universal, but it's prevalent and it's a problem.
Welcome BlueBoy2, I see the thread has gotten down to a discussion of terminology. I’d like to focus back on you for a moment. I read the sentence above and wonder, is the bartender you? Are you seeing your own old soul, and sadness, just needing a big hug? Or a memory or alternate universe of yourself? It is good to feel empathy. You are human. Sometimes when I am most empathetic is when I see myself, or a potential myself, in the other person’s life. So, again I ask, is the bartender you or some version of you? If so, please hear yourself (and me) that everything will be o.k.
