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Another long post about bottoming

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by nerdbrain, Sep 22, 2019.

  1. nerdbrain

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    I don't have a problem with the idea of being gay. I would be fine telling people I'm gay, or showing up to an event with a male partner, provided it was clear that I was the top and he was the bottom.

    However, I'm mostly attracted to older, masculine men. And I would be ashamed to show up with a guy like that, where it's obvious that he's the top (or daddy) and I'm the bottom.

    The desire to be anally penetrated by another man is extremely shameful and uncomfortable for me. But it's also my deepest fantasy and produces the most intense orgasms when I use a toy to masturbate.

    Except for a few unsuccessful experiments, my sexual career has been exclusively as a top, mostly with cis women but also with trans women as of this year. I have no interest in topping men. Topping bolsters my self-esteem and makes me feel like a man. I feel invulnerable, powerful and in control.

    Bottoming, in contrast, makes me feel vulnerable, needy and out of control. I crave it in a way that feels almost like an addiction. If I don't fuck myself with a toy regularly, I can't concentrate on anything else. The desire is not based on attraction to a specific person -- it's a need that grows from some internal lack or brokenness, a void that needs to be filled.

    Bottoming makes me feel like a woman, like my ass is a vagina. I feel distinctly unmasculine, craving another man's strength and manhood inside me. I feel like a beggar, powerless and dependent.

    In NYC, it seems that most men are bottoms, all chasing that elusive hit of masculinity. They all seem like whores to me. It's repulsive, like drug addicts chasing the next fix.

    I hate that feeling within myself. I don't know how to make peace with it. Honestly I don't want to -- I just want it gone. I'm certainly not proud of it, and the idea of "coming out" -- that is, promoting this desire to be the central feature of my sexuality -- seems like a sick joke.

    On the other hand, I recognize that continuing to hate this part of myself is totally unhealthy. I have enough self-loathing to last for centuries. But I don't understand how a man can say "I love getting fucked in the ass" and still have any self-respect, much less expect others to respect him. It simply doesn't compute.
     
  2. out2019

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    I haven't had sex yet, but when I do, I want to be a bottom, but for totally different reasons. I have played with toys and it feels great, I like it better than cumming,.. when I fantasize it's not humiliating or about 'craving another man's strength' - i don't go for masculine guys anyway- to me it represents a beautiful physical expression of romantic intimacy.

    I feel the same way about the exchange of fluids, I would love to give a blow job and swallow, but again it's always a romantic expression in my fantasies, a sexual version of the bonding of exchanging rings and vows.

    I just posted this elsewhere from therapist Joe Kort:
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/why-...-to-other-men_b_3670740?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

    Do you think about being gay any other way? Or just as a humiliation fantasy?
     
    #2 out2019, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
    Contented likes this.
  3. SiennaFire

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    Hey NB

    Reading your post with a fresh perspective, my first reaction is that you haven't met the right guy.

    Here are some follow up questions for thought/discussion.
    • Have you ever had sex with a BF? BF sex is vastly different from hookup sex with more emotional vulnerability.
    • Are you overly responsible (or a control freak) in real life? I'm mostly top except when I need a break from responsibility...
    I know that you've explored this ad nauseam with several therapists, so this may be an exercise in mental masturbation and futility... :grin:


    Best,
    SF
     
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  4. Redwinerox

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    Me personally... If I were to bottom and be in the submissive role, I would have to trust the other person quite a bit to share that bit of me as an act of intimacy. Especially if I were in the traditional women’s position (missionary).
     
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  5. OnTheHighway

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    Your dealing with a massive amount of shame, and part of it is bottom shame. Before worrying about the bottoming shame. Focus on the broader shame. Vulnerably is key to letting it happen. Rather than keeping all of it bottled up inside, you need to begin to release the shame by making yourself vulnerable.

    I know you have read this before, which is why I am not going into the details again, but the key to unlock the shame is there. You need to turn it and open the door.
     
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  6. Contented

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    As other have said it’s seem you are hung up on bottom shame. Frankly bottoming really has nothing to do with being submissive. It’s about an intense physical and emotional connection with another man. I started my evolution as a versatile top and now am more bottom. It has nothing to do with masculinity as both my BF and I are more fem with my BF for lack of a better description is very gay and now more of a top. It’s seems more likely what is surfacing it what I like to call toxic masculinity. It takes a while to get over it. I find bottoming, blow jobs( I absolutely swallow) and the like to be expressions of my love, vulnerability,and willingness to provide pleasure to man that opened by eyes and changed my life.
     
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  7. Nickw

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    Nerdbrain

    Since we last chatted, things have changed a bit for me. I have had the same gay lover for almost a year. We are exclusive except for a couple of foursomes with some buddies of mine. I can't even define myself, or my lover, in any terms like top or bottom sub or dominate.

    When we are together we just enjoy what each of us brings at that moment and just let it go with no expectations. The sex can be spectacular. It just gets better every time. I keep wondering how it is that it can be that way.

    I wonder if you need to step away from defining yourself as you explore your same sex desires. When all you want when you are with your lover is to make him/her fulfilled, one can lose all track of anything else.

    We will sometimes lie together after and comment that we both reached something we cannot define.

    I think we are all capable of finding a zone where we can just stop thinking and start feeling. This isn't something most can find on a hookup since you simply must be able to turn yourself over to your partner and he to you to reach this. For that you need to trust to access your vulnerability.

    Have you tried to find one guy and fall in love? Letting yourself go there can change everything!
     
  8. nerdbrain

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    Hi everyone -- good see some familiar names :slight_smile:

    Seems like the common thread here is about bottoming, and sex in general, as being part of a loving relationship. I guess that is true. I want a loving relationship with another man, or at least part of me does. It's hard to even admit it.

    I can vaguely picture it in my imagination. Sometimes I imagine sitting with a lover in armchairs overlooking the water somewhere. It's all pretty abstract. I've never had a crush on a man, at least not that I was aware of at the time. But, in retrospect, I can see that some past friendships may have meant more to me than I realized.

    The idea of being emotionally attached to a man is hard for me to fathom. I guess I assume most men are emotionally unavailable players just looking to get laid and put notches in their belt -- which is exactly what I've become over the years.

    Also, I have such a strong emotional attachment to my ex-wife; it's hard for me to envision letting anyone else in like that, particularly a man.

    The idea of dating guys seems odd too. Almost tedious. When I think about dating women, there's the thrill of the hunt, the possibility of conquest. With a man, it's a totally different dynamic -- I would be evaluating potential candidates to see if they are worthy.

    And the whole idea of vulnerability, both emotional and sexual. It's scary stuff. Yes, I've listened to Brene Brown. I'm just angry about it. Which I guess is a pretty weird reaction. I've always felt too vulnerable, too sensitive. I've made enormous efforts to control that, which I suppose has led to a shutdown in many parts of my life.

    Be vulnerable. Don't judge hastily. See what happens naturally. This sounds lovely. In theory.
     
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  9. Nickw

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    Each time I read your posts I think the same thing. It seems you are hung up on this definition of yourself based on what you desire sexually. Then, it seems, you apply your prejudices to judge yourself and other men who share this desire. Sometimes a pleasure is just a pleasure. It doesn't mean that somehow everything about your life has to revolve around your desire to have a man penetrate you.

    For me, I can be sexually dominate, I can be submissive. It can be an interesting dynamic to explore both. But, I'm me the next morning. Just because the night before I experienced having someone else dominate me, control me or fuck me "like I was a woman" doesn't mean I wake up someone else or that my masculinity (whatever that really means) has been altered.
     
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  10. OnTheHighway

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    Is your attachment to your ex wife some form of Dependency rather than a healthy emotional attachment?
     
  11. Mr B

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    Nerdbrain, the brain is an organ that has evolved in order to help us survive and the way it does this is by creating associations, i.e. you hear a few times a thunder followed by a storm, you brain links those two things together in order to protect us from danger. We can react quicker without having to think a lot. The trouble is, many of the times, these things linked by the brain are just spurious correlations without any logical or causal necessity between them.

    The same mechanics applies to how we form our prejudices. Some may have learned to associate some things like masculinity with strength and virtue and femininity with passivity and weakness, but upon reflection, there is no evidence to suggest that these are true and not just baseless prejudices.

    During the course of our lifetimes we experience numerous shocks where we learn that things follow a complete different path than what we had learned to expect. How many times have you had some prejudices shattered by an encounter or an experience? When this happens, your brain has to costly and painfully adjust to a new reality or paradigm.

    What I am trying to suggest is that maybe you have 'learned' to see some things as a form of flaw, or brokenness, or weakness, when they are actually not necessarily so. You can find many instances that corroborate the view that the world is full of people who are strong, bright, full of life and energy, happy, AND who like to do things that you learned to believe are flawed, submissive, weak and mistaken. You just have to seriously question some of those unconscious beliefs against the weight of reason and evidence? Who said that enjoying bottoming is a weakness? Why is it not manly? You will see, there is nothing of substance to support such claims.

    You will see you might be acting and letting yourself and your life be shaped by certain ideas and beliefs for which there is no rational basis whatsoever. Once you realize this, you will see that the only thing that truly breaks you is repressing your sexuality, not allowing yourself to fully blossom like you were meant to.
     
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  12. I'm gay

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    I think you have attached far too much importance on sexual positions, and you are buying into the stereotypes of gay men that have persisted for centuries, if not millennia. There simply is no credible reason for the belief that the receptive partner is less masculine simply because he is being penetrated. I know plenty of men who can (and do) say they love getting fucked in the ass with their self-respect intact. I think this speaks more to your lack of self respect that you are projecting onto others. These beliefs of yours are the very definition of internalized homophobia. You need to ditch these outdated and erroneous beliefs and let go of this shame you hold tight to.
     
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  13. Cashew

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    I am posting on here from a completely lesbian female perspective which may or may not be helpful right now but I'm shocked to hear these incredibly derogatory views about women.
    Isn't it terrible that in this day and age a man, should have such strong negative feelings about women?!
    Wow.
    I'm not having a go a you directly @nerdbrain, you clearly have some deep seated issues about masculinity and femininity but sometimes it's good just to take a step back and have a look at the kind of thoughts which are going through your head, like: 'Hang on a minute here...is this my belief or is it someone else's?'. Masculinity and femininity are such big, broad, beautiful spectrums. You need to try and distance yourself from these really damaging, narrow and limiting patriarchal perspectives that are torturing you.
     
    #13 Cashew, Sep 24, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2019
  14. nerdbrain

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    Thanks to everyone for your responses. I know that my feelings aren't necessarily rational, but they are still quite strong. I wish I knew how to "let go" of my internalized homophobia, but it seems to be entrenched.

    That said, it's important to clarify that I wasn't speaking about masculinity or femininity in general -- certainly not in women -- but about my own inner conflict specifically. What I struggle with is the strong incongruity between my "feminine" inner fantasies and my "masculine" external personality. Sometimes it feels like two entirely different states of mind. In fact, I find it hard to even experience my bottoming fantasies unless I'm safely in bed by myself, where I can enter a kind of relaxed fantasy or dissociative state.

    When I first became aware of my gay fantasies at age 18 (I'm 40 now), it was a terrifying experience. I was shocked and horrified to suddenly feel the desire to be penetrated, having had no conscious clues that I might be gay before that. The discovery was a terrible blow, like having the rug pulled out from under my feet. It's likely that I was in a very deep kind of denial, but even in retrospect it's not black and white: I had crushes on and sexual fantasies about girls from a young age, and none for men (that I was aware of).

    As Mr B said, the brain is an organ that helps us survive. I believe that in my case, it kept my gay fantasies out of my conscious awareness for a long time because they were so dangerous to my self-concept. Now that part of me has become quite compartmentalized, under pressure an clamoring to burst out. I'm terrified of letting it run wild and take over my personality. I'm trying to find some kind of peaceful way to de-escalate the internal conflict and start to create a unified self that encompasses both of these parts. But that process is not going well. I've often compared it to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict: two diametrically opposed forces that want to destroy each other, but happen to be trapped in the same physical space.

    Anyway I feel like a broken record. I know that some of my feelings are uncomfortable for people here -- they're uncomfortable for me too. But it helps to have a place to express them anyway.
     
  15. Cashew

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    You are obviously dealing with a lot of shame around your sexuality, which pretty much everyone on here can identify with to some extent. I am better now at allowing, accepting and celebrating my sexuality and realising that there is nothing wrong with it and that it is actually a really beautiful thing to love/fantasise about someone from the same sex. Have you ever thought about speaking to an LGBT counsellor? It may help you to work through these things, it can be difficult doing it on your own.
     
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  16. regkmc

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    Your feelings don’t make me uncomfortable, I understand and am processing in similar ways. For me, considering that I could not only be gay, but also attracted to other races and older men and in submissive ways can feel shameful, like...how could I ever show this to the world, especially when I lived one way for so long?

    I played a lot of softball this summer with an LGBT team. It was extremely helpful for me, and I met some people whose sexual interests completely defy stereotypes. Like stud looking young guys who are only attracted to grandpas! And they were open and ok with it. Just seeing them, hearing their stories and seeing them exist in the real world was eye opening, and more confirmation that whatever you want is OK. Finding out what you want and not being sure is OK. Exploring is OK. And generally, no one (who matters) cares, and people are most concerned with their own stuff.

    Have you made any gay friends?
     
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  17. nerdbrain

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    Cashew: yes I've been in therapy for over 20 years. Long stretches of that were with gay therapists. More recently my therapists have been female but all very LGBT friendly here in NYC.

    Reg: I've tried to make some gay friends over the years but it hasn't really stuck. I hung out with a group of gay guys a bunch last year, but I felt like I didn't really fit in. I had a gay AA sponsor but we sort of drifted apart. I have some gay acquaintances mostly through AA.

    And I know that nobody cares, certainly not in NYC in 2019. That's one of the most frustrating things for me. Why am I so damn stubborn and resistant to change? Maybe I need to do something more aggressive in terms of self-acceptance; not sure what that would be though.
     
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  18. Cashew

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    I'm sorry I didn't realise. Maybe a form of CBT therapy to help you to very actively challenge your negative thought patterns about your sexuality. Or Mindfulness.... trying to distance yourself from your thoughts completely, accepting yourself fully and letting go of everything. Just some suggestions, you may already have tried them.

    I'm sorry you're suffering so much.
     
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  19. Cashew

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    another good book i read which may also be helpful is called Straight Jacket by Matthew Todd. It helped me to understand shame and why LGBT people suffer so much from it and how it affects us and our ability to form healthy happy relationships and live healthy lives.
     
  20. ekks

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    What if what you call being "feminine" has nothing to do with being women at all,but is just your special masculine need? It's very hard to get rid of stereotypes, but I found my own way to deal with it. Though I am not "typical" woman at all, I'm fully okay with my gender. Therefore I accept that all my strange preferences and traits (which society easily could call masculine) have nothing to do with my sexual orientation and have all rights to be considered feminine.
     
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