1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why are lesbians not taken as serious as gay men...

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by Kelseyk92, Jun 23, 2019.

  1. Kelseyk92

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    It's something I've noticed even more so recently, especially as I get older. I've known I liked girls since I knew that two women COULD be together but the older I get, the more I realize a LOT of people do not take lesbians serious, I don't know if it's because of the patriarchal society we live in, even today, women are made to believe that they NEED a man, rather than WANT a man. I've known women who were lesbians their whole life but because of pressure, they've ended up with men because it's easier.

    I don't know if you guys know that lesbian youtuber Domo Wilson, when Crissy left her, she started saying how she is now bisexual and on her instagram posts I saw lots of straight women writing "go on girl, get that D!" or "Get Domo a daddy!" (about her son). And seemed genuinely happy that she now likes men with lots of comments being "yay, now let's find you a man" like a man is a prize or something special.

    I don't hate men one bit, in fact, I prefer being friends with men, I just don't feel attracted to them in any other way but when people constantly question you and say "you just haven't found the right man" or "you'll end up with a man" it can make you a bit bitter.

    I know 3 women who were lesbians their WHOLE life, only ever liked women but have ended up getting pregnant by men. When I spoke to them privately they even said to me that they don't even enjoy sex with men but were feeling pressured by family members/straight female friends to "try men" and ended up getting pregnant and now they feel trapped.

    I recently had an experience with a female friend of mine who I always thought accepted me tell me "you're 27, please leave your partner (who I've been with for 5 years) find a man, have kids and settle down", she is a straight woman. She would always tell me "But D*** is so good, I just don't get it", "how can you not like men", "a big strong man holding you is amazing", "I don't understand how you don't like d***", "You are way too good looking to be a lesbian, I just don't believe that you are", "you'll end up with a man", "Your kid will need a dad", "you have it in you to be straight", "how can you not want to take D", ect... not to mention straight men who try and turn you (especially as I am quite an attractive female). ALSO ONE MORE THING, A LOT OF THE STRAIGHT WOMEN, LIKE THAT FRIEND I WAS TELLING YOU ABOUT WHO SAY THESE THINGS, ARE MOST OF THE TIME IN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH BAD BOYS! that girl I was talking about would call me crying about her boyfriend every day and when I would ask "why don't you leave?" she would literally say "because he's the best sex I've ever had and that d*** is so good". Yet if I was upset over an argument with my partner, she would invalidate it... like only a man is worth stressing over.

    This made me realize why so many lesbians I know are so sheltered and are mostly friends with other lesbians. I've always considered myself very loving and open and I'd be happy to be friends with any one, male/friend, gay/straight/trans, ect... but the more I meet people and they know about my sexuality, the more I realize people do NOT take it seriously. Gay men seem to be taken SO much more serious.

    I'm thinking maybe it's because women are the ones who bear the child, I don't know? But again, that's weird because it's relatively easy for lesbians to have kids in this day and age (sperm donors, ect...) they are even making artificial sperm at the moment which I wouldn't be surprised if that was a thing in the future. I wonder if that would change peoples views?

    I can't help but think as a woman (who is a lesbian) people believe I am just here to please a man, fix/chase/cry/stress over a man and be a baby maker and what I truly want doesn't matter? I'm starting to get a bit upset by it. Any other lesbians relate?

    Sorry this is so long, I just had to get it off my chest.
     
    #1 Kelseyk92, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  2. alwaysforever

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    Maine
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Yeah, the litany of comments is constant. I don't have a lot of straight friends, and anyone suggesting that I need a man is no friend of mine. Over the years, I've cut more and more straight people out of my life because they keep telling me what I supposedly should want. It's exhausting.
     
    Ladybird12, HorizonSea and Kelseyk92 like this.
  3. Kelseyk92

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I'm so happy that someone relates. I don't understand the obsession with "changing lesbians". it's insane! This is literally why lesbians are mostly friends with other lesbians. Male genitals are very overrated and it can get annoying people constantly telling you what you want/need! No wonder why so many lesbians end up hating men. LET US BE!

     
    Mihael and DirectionNorth like this.
  4. Kelseyk92

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I wish I was a man sometimes, honestly. A woman has to basically give up her body, have periods her whole life, be pregnant, get morning sickness, give birth, ect... for the baby to carry on the man's last name only. I sometimes think Eve really did eat that apple and screw women over lol.
     
    Ladybird12 likes this.
  5. I'mStillStanding

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2016
    Messages:
    989
    Likes Received:
    382
    Location:
    East Coast
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I’m not sure I have much to offer on the topic, but I do have a thought. I think you made a good point on the difference in how gay men are viewed and lesbians. Though as a gay man in the south I’m not viewed that greatly lol and it’s mainly because how obvious it is. I’ve always been feminine since I was a little boy and that is a problem. Lesbians who are not feminine enough challenge the “natural” order of things and lesbians who are feminine should just give in to said order because men are the end all be all. That’s just how I see things play out where I’m at. Women are suppose to submit to men no matter what, it’s a lesson taught in churches and schools. Men have to prove they are men or they aren’t worthy of the title. But my thought is it’s less about lesbians and more about women. Our society is still very much set up as a man’s world and that pours over even in our community. “Straight acting” gays are put on a pedestal. Some say it’s because they are breaking the traditional gay stereotype but I think it’s more that they are living up the the traditional male one and that’s what’s is acceptable and celebrated.

    But I am sorry for jumping in on the topic... just thought I’d share my thoughts on how little our culture has truly came when it comes to this topic.
     
  6. alwaysforever

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    Maine
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    As frustrating as it is, the comments to me aren't the most painful part. The painful part is watching friends buy into the bullying, torture themselves for years and then have to rebuild their lives after trying to fit in and it messes them up really badly. It's tough seeing how wounded the local community can become if we don't stand up to the gas-lighting.
     
  7. Kelseyk92

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I do think that straight men have got MASSIVE egos which is why I adore gay men, they are not like that at all. Like I just posted about how a woman gives up her whole body to have a child yet the child has to carry the man's last name. It's awful. Some men are so up themselves that they want to name a child after them who already has their last name. You can't help but think "my gosh what's so great about you?" and the women just submit. I do agree, I think a lot of it has to do with not just sexuality but gender also. Women are just not taken as serious. And lesbians ARE WOMEN.

    I saw an article the other day about artificial sperm and a lot of the men's comments were "well this is the end for us men", "no women will want us now". It's like they think women just want them for children.

     
    Ladybird12 and Nightlight like this.
  8. Kelseyk92

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2017
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Oh gosh, yeah. It's gotten to the point where I don't think that women even know their sexuality themselves a lot of the time, I think that people constantly telling them they want/need a man leads them to just settle down rather than venture out.

    Women can NOT win. If a woman sleeps about, she's a slag. If she doesn't sleep about, she's a prude. If she's a lesbian, she's faking it and just hates men.

     
    Ladybird12 likes this.
  9. Leah061

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    342
    Location:
    United States
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Because lesbianism is the only orientation that does not have room for men. In addition to challenging heteronormative social norms, lesbians also challenge patriarchal expectations. None of this is to say that it's easy to be a gay man, or anyone of any other orientation/gender identity, but there are experiences between lesbians and gay men that are different, and I think it has to do with the way men expect access to women, in a way that women don't expect access to men.

    If a straight woman hits on a gay man, and he says that he's gay, maybe she'll spew some semi ignorant comment like "ugh all the good ones are taken or gay", but the gay man in that situation doesn't have to prove to her that he's gay or insist repeatedly that he doesn't want a threesome. Gay men aren't fetishized by straight women the way lesbians are by men.

    Gay men who have a past of dating women don't seem to have to explain themselves the same way lesbians do. If a woman says she's a lesbian, people ask her if she's ever "tried" men. If she says no, they ask her how she can know she's a lesbian if she's never "tried" it. If she says that she has been with men, people are confused and demand an explanation. It doesn't seem like gay men are constantly asked if they've ever "tried" women.

    And, if we look at prevailing views on bisexuality, the assumption about bi men is that they're really gay and only half way out of the closet, and that bi women are really straight and doing it for attention. Our society is so man-centric that bisexuality is seen as something that inherently revolves around men. And it's so man-centric that if a lesbian criticizes this facet of our world, the automatic assumption is that she's a man hater.

    I think you're right about the possibility that there are a lot of women who don't know they're lesbians. Again, I get that heteronormativity is a social force that affects all of us who aren't cishets, but the it plays a unique role in the way a woman understands herself in the world. Something I've heard a lot among lesbians who used to date men, is that they weren't ever that interested or involved with their sex life. But, as women, we've been sold the idea that for one thing, women are inherently less sexual than men are, and given the way our world views sex between men and women, that we are really just there for the man's pleasure. It's so typical, that it's almost expected that a woman won't have an orgasm during sex with her male partner. Women aren't really encouraged to analyze and critique our relationships, so it makes sense that so many women would just assume they're straight and date men, when they're actually lesbians.
     
  10. alwaysforever

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,158
    Likes Received:
    176
    Location:
    Maine
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Obviously the outcome could be very different for bisexual woman, but some of us aren't bi and never will be happy in a relationship with a man no matter what, and it is damaging hear these things constantly.
     
    DirectionNorth, Kelseyk92 and Leah061 like this.
  11. I'mStillStanding

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2016
    Messages:
    989
    Likes Received:
    382
    Location:
    East Coast
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I wanted to make sure I clarified my statements about it not being a lesbian thing and more of a women thing was that I think it affects all women, and femininity actually. I am sorry that I didn’t make state that more clearly. But I do think anyone doesn’t confirm to what society expects are treated more harshly.

    Gay men are fetishized by some straight women in a very dehumanizing way. Basically treated like a lap dog or circus performer. You can see this nearly any night at a gay bar when the girl group goes out to watch gays in their natural habit... I mean I’m not saying it comparable to how women are treated by men and sexualized... I’m just saying it happens and it does get frustrating at times.

    This is also a misconception. I was married when I came out and I still have to prove my gayness to everyone. I have to justify to the gay world why I ended up getting married instead of just coming out earlier, and explain to the straight world how this isn’t a phase and what happened when I was married was me living a lie and this isn’t.
     
    Leah061 likes this.
  12. Leah061

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    342
    Location:
    United States
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    A few people
    You’re right. And it makes it sooo easy for us to doubt ourselves and wonder if we *could* be with a man even if we know it’s not what we want.
     
    alwaysforever likes this.
  13. Leah061

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2018
    Messages:
    268
    Likes Received:
    342
    Location:
    United States
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Maybe I should clarify, there are certainly commonalities between the way lesbians and gay men navigate the world. I did not mean to say that there aren't straight women who objectify gay men, particularly the type of straight women who take up space in gay bars and won't take gay men seriously beyond just wanting a "sassy gay best friend." It's usually those women who are also "grossed out" by lesbians and think that they're obsessed with them. I think this is just one of the ways in which gay men and women are used and dehumanized by straight society in ways that run parallel to each other, but what I'm trying to say, without implying that one experience is more difficult over another, is that those experiences aren't quite identical, and I think the ways in which they differ point to problems in larger social structures. Whether or not one individual gay man or one individual lesbian has a particular experience, it doesn't change that there are larger social forces at play that contribute to the way that lesbians, as a collective group, are seen in the world. Of course gay men, especially gay men who come out after being in long term relationships with women face skepticism. I was not at all trying to erase or ignore gay men who have had similar struggles as lesbians, or pit us against each other, I was just trying to point out that while there are a number of similar experiences between gay men and lesbians, there is an additional layer of misogyny to the standard heteronormative narrative that we're expected to adhere to, and this means that even if a lesbian and gay man have the same experience, there are social nuances involved that make them slightly different in a way that leads many lesbians to feel that they are not taken as seriously as gay men.
     
  14. I'mStillStanding

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2016
    Messages:
    989
    Likes Received:
    382
    Location:
    East Coast
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I 100% agree on everything you are saying. Honestly I shouldn’t have said too much because this wasn’t the place for it. But you are right, no matter how similar experiences are there are things that make them different. I sometimes forget it’s not about trying to relate... sometimes you should shut up and listen and this is one of those times I should have.
     
  15. Zerak

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2019
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Minnestoa
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Straight
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I don't think women's sexual orientations are respected period, I actually had an OCD fit a while when a rant into some articles about women changing orientation (Usually though I've heard it's latent homosexuality, odd that you never read articles about men 'turning' even though it happens to us too isn't it? Probably because it wouldn't be as flashy.) or never being one orientation or the other... it almost feels like people are trying to push that female sexual orientation is some super malleable thing that can change at the drop of hat. I know that attractions can change for bisexual people but feel like it's disrespectful toward Lesbians/Straight women to push the idea without actual proof, it just stinks of the idea that everyone expects a women to please them and not get the some women just aren't and won't be interested,

    ...Also I'll admit that Lesbians end up pressured into having sex with men is actually deeply disturbing to me, I know this might seem ironic coming from a Catholic but I someone being pressured by society to sleep with someone they don't love feels like one of the deepest failures a society can make.
    This may be personal experience but I have a feeling that lot more men who aren't complete #%#$! have a lot lower self confidence than you'd think, with all the straight jerks out there in the male population making the rest feel/look like trash (It's like every day you see or hear a story about dude or another being a total asshole.) and all the emphasis on how 'hot' women are I can actually see how more than a few of them would feel like they are undesirable by comparison.
     
    Kelseyk92 likes this.
  16. Nightlight

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2018
    Messages:
    415
    Likes Received:
    49
    Location:
    East Asia
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Even as a bisexual woman, this is sad. Any relationships I'll ever have with a women will not be valid for anyone I know unless they have an understanding of queer people's experience. It's terrifying that after some years, that I could be pressed into marrying a guy whether I like it or not, regardless of who I might be dating at the time.

    It's feels like whatever I do is going to be meaningless, because the destination is already set.
     
    #16 Nightlight, Jun 23, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2019
  17. Mihael

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    3,049
    Likes Received:
    704
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I think that's a huge problem. I identify as a guy but... I think that's a problem. Also women submitting is a problem.

    And that should put them in the roght place and give women the power to decide who they are with. Even sperm donation increasingly puts men in the right place. No woman needs a man, and no woman should need a man. If he is abusive and egocentric, he is no fit for a partner. Period.
     
  18. Zerak

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2019
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    15
    Location:
    Minnestoa
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Straight
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Naturally both partners should always be considered in any relationship, the idea that the man should be making all the choices is quite frankly disguising. I do hope to get married myself, but I find the idea that I may make any partner I take 'lesser' for it to be extremely depressing.

    That said I do find it funny how a lot of other straight men seem (As I repeat bellow) to base the entirety of their identity around the idea that all women need them... for all they relish in the dominance of their positions they themselves need those they oppress for validation. It' probably why they 'expect access' as mentioned above because for all the ego they spew out they find the idea of women a they can 'take' for their own to be a affront or personal challenge.

    It always seems as women are objects to be desired and men are beasts who want. It's actual a very depressing aspect of soceity since not only does it dehumanize women (And devalues lesbians as they aren't on the mens market) it also denies that they can have wants of their own, even among women that like men the implication that getting together with one is a success on the mans part and that her own agency didn't matter... also you know this might be weird but it'd be nice to be wanted even if find the idea of being 'needed' by someone to be a psychological unhealthy for whomever the poor soul is.

    I really hate to be a downer, but I doubt this is going to put any of the actual narcissists in their place. They seem to have built up so much of their identity on the idea that women just want them and based their success on how many women they can get that it's probably not ever going to change. Don't get me wrong while It would never be as much of a relief to me as it would be to all the women who have to put up with these (I would love to not feel second hand shame every time one of these #$@#%'s show up the news though) I would be more than happy if their was some silver bullet that make these blights on our soceity end the disrespect already. My apologies if this self centered and a derail but it really is a blow to your self esteem when people say nasty shit about your demographic and you know that it's accurate it.
     
  19. Mihael

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    3,049
    Likes Received:
    704
    Location:
    Europe
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    But at least it will put those who were made narcissists, not born, in their place.

    Uh, don't worry, I also consider myself to be a man who likes mostly women sexually and I've been living as a man for quite some time now. Of course I'm referring to a systematic problem, not saying that every man is like that. Everyone should reflect on themself on their own, because everyone is their own person.
     
    DirectionNorth likes this.
  20. caymon85

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2018
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    usa
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Some people
    This seems to be in keeping with the assumptions about bisexuality. If a women says she is bisexual, she is actually straight. If a man says he is bisexual he is actually gay.

    I suspect this is somewhat tied to the stereotype that men are more interested in sex, while women are more interested in companionship. Accordingly, men would only ever be with a man if they are truly gay. While women may be with a women for the companionship, not because they are truly lesbians.

    I also suspect that this view was somewhat pushed along by a number of prominent female celebrities who flirted with bisexuality over the years. While male celebrities almost never did, except for some very eccentric musicians. This has chanced a bit in the past few years. But, it still seems more prominent with female celebrities.
     
    TwoFeech likes this.