Since I turned 40 in March, I've often wondered in bewilderment, how can I still be struggling with my sexuality after all these years? After all, I live in NYC, I'm not religious, and there is nobody in my life who would have a problem if I came out as gay. The answer, it occurred to me today, is simple: I don't want to be gay. As it's often said about therapy: you can't change unless you want to change. Everyone knows that people are deeply resistant to changes that are imposed upon them, regardless of whether or not those changes are actually beneficial. Think of how conservatives responded to racial or LGBT civil rights. I'm just like them: a stubborn donkey, digging my heels into the sand and refusing to budge. But this begs the question, who or what is forcing me to be gay? Here, things are a bit more complicated. I have always perceived my homosexual feelings as "not me." The old psychoanalytic term is "ego dystonic." Even now, my gay fantasies feel like some alien presence is taking over me, and I must submit eventually. There is a palpable fear of losing myself -- that is, my externally-facing, hetero identity. My gay fantasies usually come along with shame and depression. It's never part of a positive or loving experience. It's more like I need a fix -- I need to get fucked. When I do (solo, with a toy), it's like a drug, powerful and ecstatic. And then I have a psychological hangover when it's done. So I don't want to give into this force, or this part of myself. I hate it. I wish I could cut it out of my psyche with a scalpel like a horrible tumor. Rationally, I know that I should find a way to accept it, make peace with it or integrate it somehow and live a "happy" life as a gay man. But today I watched a long video talk by Joseph Nicolosi, one of the founders of "reparative therapy," and every single word he said rang true: I've only had a crush on a guy once, earlier this year. I've had a few, brief fantasies of a loving relationship with a man. Historically, most of my romantic/sexual thoughts and behaviors have been towards women. Perhaps I am suppressing my homo-romantic thoughts? According to the prototypical later-in-life coming out story, the man remains with his wife, acting out his desires in secret, until he falls in love with a man. Then it's game over: he finally wants to come out and live life as a gay man. Is this what I must do? Try meeting more men until I feel that romantic chemistry? Right now my homosexuality feels like a horrible compulsion, born of shame and inferiority. It's not something I want. Would love change all that?
I think you hit on something real important when referencing your "hetero identity". It's a bit ironic. Speaking for myself, I think that in order to lie effectively for many years, I had to actively build heterosexuality into my identity in a way actual heterosexual people usually don't. This is an effective defense mechanism because it makes the prospect of coming out that more daunting. Not only do I have the normal struggles built into admitting being gay, but it feels like I'm losing a part of myself, like I'm going to become a different person afterwords. I had a certain turning point a couple years ago. I looked in the mirror, and imagined myself, kind of in the third person, as if being described by a narrator, as being a heterosexual man. Then I imagined myself being described as a queer man. And somehow it struck me in that moment that I was the same person. There wasn't a difference. The way I had built heterosexuality into my identity was an illusion in my head - just a sort of mental block that I had to get past. Since then I think I've slowly pulled heterosexuality out of my identity and started simply embracing the complexity of it all. But it's still a struggle - I'm still completely in the closet. But maybe this story helps. I can't really give you answers regarding this stuff, but it seems like the best thing you can do is to continue to confront these questions head-on and keep thinking about them, not reflexively shoving them into the closet like I did for many years. I wouldn't read into this Joseph Nicolosi stuff too much, it struck me as pretty bogus to be honest and it doesn't look like his views are well respected within the scientific community (or the government) anymore - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Nicolosi
I feel your pain. I think the problem for me is that I just can't identify with the American version of being "gay" ... it's "you go girl" frivolousness and party scene, coupled with relative lack of stable, relationship-oriented, masculine men to whom I feel attracted. I sense, but don't know, that being "gay" is not so dichotomized from being "straight" in other parts of the world, such as continental Europe. I would have thought by this point (50 years on from Stonewall) that gay culture would have evolved further than it has; it's paradoxical but I think straight culture uses the more outlandish elements of gay culture (e.g., drag queens reading to kids ... really?) to keep "regular" gay men marginalized. I think the idea of two men being in love and having a functional, adult relationship is still very unsettling to many Americans (but not so much for two women); the problem is that the goofier elements in the gay world are more than happy to go along with being marginalized if it means they can keep partying and playing with the sex apps. It leaves very few options for more mainstream men like myself.
That’s like saying straight partying college kids give straight people a bad rap or that deer hunters in Georgia give straight business men in Cities a bad rap. Different people are at different life stages and have different interests, be they gay or straight. They should be allowed to do what makes them happy as long as they’re not hurting anyone (and drag queens aren’t hurting anyone). The people with the problem are the one trying to dictate how everyone else should live. There’s room for both the RuPauls and Pete Buttigieges of the world.
@nerdbrain The thing to hold in mind is it’s not going to change you because you’re already gay. You were always gay. You just didn’t acknowledge it. I’ve had to come to terms with that as a lesbian. I’m not “becoming” a lesbian. I always was one. It was always there. I’m just not lying to myself about it anymore and am working on embracing it and myself.
After writing my original post this afternoon, I went to an AA meeting. My head was spinning and my stomach felt queasy the whole time. After the meeting, I couldn't make eye contact with anyone in the room, gay or straight. I felt like they could see into the depths of my soul, see my inner shame and turmoil and desperation. Some people asked how I was doing and I said something like so-so or OK. I wanted badly to get out of there. I walked/staggered home with my sunglasses on. It's a beautiful day here but I felt like I was walking wounded, like people could see that something was wrong with me. I forced myself to stop at the fruit stand and grocery store. Finally I got home and now I'm safely in bed. I feel awful. I've been in bed all weekend. It's gorgeous outside and I wanted to go on a bike ride but I just couldn't manage it either Saturday or Sunday morning. I feel off-kilter. I haven't showered in days. I am lonely and depressed and I have nobody to talk to. I am drowning in shame. I'm ashamed of my gay feelings, and ashamed of my own shame. I can't talk to anyone about this, even gay people I know in recovery. I don't want them to see my internal conflict and self-loathing. Fortunately, I am past the point where I would have contemplated suicide or drinking myself into oblivion. I'm relieved enough to be safe at home. I know what sent me down this shame spiral. It was a job interview I had on Friday. I've been replaying it in my head since then. So many things I should have said differently. I just can't seem to stop beating myself up about it, desperately wishing for some kind of do-over. But that kicked off a whole cascade of increasingly dark feelings. I tried to self-regulate with masturbation but that only helped somewhat. I still had the usual psychological hangover. I was up all night watching TV last night. I badly need to exercise but I can barely get out of bed. At least I am writing. Sometimes I can't even manage that. And I did some drawings, too, representing some of my internal emotional states, which I will bring to therapy on Tuesday. I can't believe I am in such bad shape. Right now I am too emotionally exhausted to hate myself.
First, on Joseph Nicolosi... he is completely full of shit. Every major professional association (psychologists, psychiatrists, social workers, counselors, marriage-family therapists, etc) have clearly stated that reparative therapy doesn't work. APA conmmissioned a major study that looked at every published study going all the way back to 1960, and found -zero- credible evidence that it was possible to change sexual orientation. A number of states have banned it outright for use on people under 18. (Theory being, people under 18 don't have a choice, and people over 18 who buy into it can do so at their own risk.) It might also be worthwhile to know that the head of Exodus, which was the largest ex-gay ministry, publicly and formally apologized after about 10 years of running the organization, saying it was clear to him that one could not change sexual orientation, and he deeply regretted the harm he'd brought to so many people. Internationally, there's no support for reparative therapy either. So... it is utter crap that has caused untold pain to millions of people, and it doesn't work. And as Unsure77 said... nothing is going to "change" you because you're already gay. This is how you were born. There's really no argument by anyone credible on that point. Now... as to this idea that if you're gay you somehow have to conform in some way... using certain language, dressing a certain way, having interest in Lady Gaga or Barbra Streisand, go to gay bars, have promiscuous sex, do drugs... all of that is baloney. Gay people are as diverse as hetero people, perhaps even more so. There are gay guys who are hyper masculine, guys who are hyper feminine. Guys who dress impeccably and guys who dress like they're a blind person who shops at Goodwill. Guys who work on cars and play football, and guys who do macrame and sew. And there are also guys who conform to the stereotypes I describe above. The thing is... many of the gay people out there, you have no idea they're gay, because they're not wearing large pink shirts saying "I'M A FAGGOT". And without that, it's often impossible to tell. I have pretty decent gaydar, and there are still people who trip me up; guys I would never have assumed are gay who most definitely are. And, of course, there are plenty of others that anyone could tell a million miles away. But it's the latter group that everyone assumes represent all gay men, and that's simply untrue. In fact, they don't even represent most gay men. They just happen to be the most visible, obvious, "out there" ones. So all of this means... nothing about you has to change when you accept yourself as gay. You're still exactly the same person, except you might go home to a guy at night instead of a girl. And I suspect it's rejection of the stereotypes that's causing the most problem. Once you let go of that, I think you'll find it a lot easier.
... Having just seen your most recent post, what you're experiencing is entirely normal. The shame is a byproduct of your fear of others' judgment of you. Brené Brown says that shame is 'the deeply held belief that we're not worthy of love and belonging', and I think that's a pretty good definition. We fear that we'll be rejected, ridiculed, disowned by our family/friends. And sometimes some parts of that happen... but far more often, it doesn't. These days, most people find that they're fully embraced by family and friends. Sometimes it takes a while, but, with few exceptions, people are pretty accepting, even in places where you might not expect it. I'd strongly suggest taking an hour and watching Dr. Brown's three TED talks, in order: I think you'll find her work helpful in better understanding yourself and what you're feeling.
Nerdbrain, have you considered there might be something your conscious is not considering causing such extensive shame? You say everyone around you would be supportive, but something is holding you back. Possibly your not allowing yourself to get in touch with your underlying emotions. Your rationale self is stopping you from connecting with your inner self and your over thinking. There may be ways to cut through and get to the underlying emotions. Have you considered hypnotic therapy? If done right by someone properly trained it’s not the stereotypical nonsense projected in TVs and movies but a real way to put yourself in a calm state allowing you to connect with your inner self. Consider researching it and learning if it is a possible option for you to consider. If done right, it has positive results.
Nerdbrain I wonder if some of this is because you blame your sexuality for the loss of your marriage? If you have this anger with a part of who you are, it is hard to accept that. I have a friend who really loves a woman but he's gay. Even though we argue, often, on this forum that a gay man really cannot have a romantic love for a woman, it sure felt that way to this guy. It took him a long time to get over her. He despised being gay because he felt like it ruined his chance at the relationship he wanted. I don't have a magic solution for you. I do know that I had a lot of trouble accepting that having same sex attractions also meant I could accept that gay sex was a way to express that attraction. When I was exploring some casual gay sex I would often see myself as following some script and I was just an actor playing a bad version of myself. I got to the point that I felt my same sex attraction was not even real since I didn't care for the sex. It may be that you are somewhat like me. That gay sex never feels right, or even the thought of it, unless it is with someone you really have a connection with? I know you've tried the casual sex route and I remember thinking all you needed to do was get laid and all would be good. But, maybe not so much? I have a lover/friend/confidant now. The sex is amazing and I now feel my sexuality is integrated with who I am. You are a "thinker". Maybe an over thinker? I really wonder how you would feel if you found that guy that you could bond with and learn how you don't have to think about what it all means. In the meantime, have you considered giving it a rest? Just trying to live each day in the present with who you are? I know easier said than done. But, I'm not sure some of us can force this process of self acceptance no matter how much we study it.
Hi Chip, thanks for this comment. I am definitely deep in a shame hole. But I don't know exactly how to talk about it. I don't even know what exactly I'm ashamed of. For example, I've recently started dating trans women. I have no problem with this and will gladly talk about it to anyone who asks. They have dicks and I like that and it's totally fine. I don't mind advertising myself as bisexual since that seems somewhat accurate right now. And if I was having good times in bed with guys, I'd be fine telling people I'm gay, too. For me, there seems to be something deeper that I'm ashamed of. It's not about being gay exactly. What interested me about Nicolosi's video is that it's almost entirely about the topic of shame. He describes the typical pattern he observed with his clients: they feel shame about something, often a minor social interaction, and this leads to an emotional cascade ending in "homosexual enactment" or acting out. This is exactly how I've experienced my gay/bottoming fantasies -- not as a kind of attraction or romance, but a psychological fix that I crave when I feel bad about myself. I think this basic idea of a "shame spiral" is common to many kinds of behavioral/emotional issues, not just sexuality. So it's not "I'm feel gay and I'm ashamed of that." It's more like "I'm ashamed of myself and that makes me feel gay." As an aside, I am intimately familiar with Nicolosi and his ilk. My parents sent me to see Charles Socarides about 20 years ago when I first told them I might be bisexual. I'm familiar with their basic theories and don't usually reference them. I actually happened across this video quite accidentally, deep in a subreddit about a new kind of porn that I discovered called "sissy hypno." So that's a bit of context for you.
Yes, 110%. I absolutely blame my sexuality for the loss of my marriage. I can totally identify with your friend. In fact I've never heard of anyone else who felt this way. Honestly I'd love to talk to him if that's not against EC policy.
Hey Nerdbrain, Here is where I am. Perhaps it will help.... I am playing on an LGBT softball team now. Getting to know some people. It’s a mix of over the top flamboyant, straight “allies”, some normal dudes, some transgender folks, and some gay guys that hit the crap out of the ball! It has been good to demystify what being gay (or bi) looks like. Baseball is comfortable for me, so that really helps. I’m taking it slow with opening up to people. I am in the process of getting separated. I acknowledge that, while it seems alien, and like some sort of disease, this gay side now feels stronger now than my straight side, and it can’t be ignored. There is resignation, but I think perhaps a bit of acceptance to that resignation. It’s important for me that I do not chuck my life and experience massive upheaval everywhere....so I am looking to live in the same relative community and school district for my kids. I am continuing with my job. I am hanging out with old friends. I am still coaching and being there for my kids and wife. And I am not having sex with anyone (even my wife) right now. Has been a few months, and I think that’s good for me. I’m not really ready to be with another man until I get my own house in order. Talking about this stuff with other people is still uncomfortable and feels like a foreign language, but I’m developing the words. Strangely, I think this has helped me, and maybe you could try it - take a freezing cold shower. Go from cold to hot, and hot to cold, and back and forth. Feel the sting of the cold water. Get through it. Make it a consistent practice. You’ll appreciate the hot water and then also maybe more of what you have....what seems to be intelligence, care for others, writing talent. You got this! Peace and love
Nerdbrain, Buddhists have saying, <i>"The obstacle is the path."</i> I'm no psychotherapist. I just know that I'm instantly attracted to some men/some women for their energy, their authenticity, and that plumbing is irrelevant to me. It's the "inner person" I'm responding to, not a consistent set of externals. And I also know that "straights" don't trust "bi's", just as don't "gays". Each tribe wants total loyalty. So I retreated back to the closet after several disastrous attempts to come out and have stopped trying to explain myself to anyone else. Thus, I'd say this. If you don't want to be "gay", then reject that label, and get back on your bike and on with your life and just let your sexuality express itself however it does. Don't beat yourself up. Boats
I will see if my friend would want to join this group and discuss it a bit more. I don't know that this is all that uncommon though. Even as a bisexual, I broke off an engagement when I was 22 with a girl I had known since I was a kid. I figured out I could never marry a Catholic and risk losing the marriage when I disclosed my sexuality. This was so long ago and I, eventually, learned to like my secret same sex attractions and stopped blaming them. But, I went from distraught and nearly suicidal to meeting my wife in the matter of a couple months. So, I have a little bit of an understanding about how one can hate themselves because of what they are. But, my life seemed to work out for the better in the end. I do know that feeling...and I think a lot of us can relate to this...of looking in the mirror, after we discover we are gay or bi and saying "this isn't me...it really isn't me...I just want to be the person I am supposed to be". What we eventually learn is that who we are IS gay or bi and we become OK with that. But, when we have a loss (a marriage) because of this we have to grieve for the loss of a relationship on top of grieving for the loss of our "straightness". That can take some time and I don't know how to advise you to reconcile this since I never had to...I lucked out.
I don’t know what to do. I know enough about therapy to know that behind all this anger is a ton of grief and sadness. Everything that sucks about my life is associated with my gay feelings. Nothing good. So the idea of “accepting” them and actually “promoting” my gayness to a central part of my identity is absurd and almost insulting. I can also see that many people seem to have found peace this way. But it’s totally elusive to me.
What do you think about when you masturbate? In those moments when you create arousal and climax, does your heart ever participate? Are you with someone you’re comfortable with? For me, I could deny and deny and deny and fight with my own brain, but it became a reality to think about some kind of loving connection with a real guy. Even if in my head, that turned me on.
Sort of. I’m definitely in a powerful erotic place when I masturbate. I don’t usually think about a specific person though. That may be part of the problem: I seem to have separated my sex fantasies from my emotional needs. Even thinking about being with a man sexually and intimately all at once feels overwhelming, in a good way I guess but I’ve never experienced it. I can’t really imagine that level of vulnerability (thanks, Brene!) with another person. I think that is also the part I am most ashamed about, not necessarily the sex itself.
I hear you, it’s overwhelming for me to consider as well. Which I take to mean I’m not ready for it in real life. Which is perfectly cool. I’ll take care of myself, see what comes up in my head (usually my trigger who I had some emotional connection to), and just enjoy the rest of my life. I’m having a great sexual relationship with myself. No shame in meeting your own needs by yourself. Maybe at some point I’ll feel comfortable being with someone else. I’m busy right now though.
