We seem to be going through a significant social transition here in the U.S. regarding how men treat women. This is a good thing, but it seems to beg the question of how to find out if a person is gay. I am a volunteer gardener at a major university. I sometimes ask students and volunteers if they are gay if I suspect they may be and if it seems like we might date. Sometimes this is subtle, other times it's straightforward. How do gay men, in the context of "metoo", find out if another man is gay without being accused of sexual harassment? It seems to me that most young people don't mind answering the question, but maybe older people do. Any insights you may have would be helpful. Thanks!
Could you go about it the other way, as in you come out to them - could be indirectly, mention an LGBT event, group or something topical - and see how they respond?
Actually, I've done that. What I'm really after here is whether this is considered sexual harassment?
I think it depends on how it's done and your position towards them, if it's other volunteers that you are training or managing I feel that's not okay. As a whole though, I always find people who hit on me at their place of work to be totally inappropriate, I don't necessarily feel sexually harassed (if they drop it the second I say I am not interested) but it makes me feel uncomfortable and sometimes unsafe especially if it's a place I go to often and might bump into them again. It's different if it's someone I have built a rapport with over a few weeks/months but if it's someone I have never talked to then I definitely feel weirded out and slightly annoyed. (Mind you I feel differently towards men vs women because women are less likely to do that and less likely to approach me by making inappropriate comments or asking inappropriate questions) I wouldn't hit on other volunteers unless they show signs of being interested as that might make them feel uncomfortable at their place of work which is not okay. Same for students actually, I wouldn't go to random students to ask them if they are gay or wanna go on a date as that might them feel uncomfortable at their place of study (and they might well report you to the Uni). Asking someone you have been talking to for a while if they are gay/would fancy going on a date = okay (as long as you accept they might say no and drop it the second they do) asking random strangers who work with you or are coming to study to divulge their sexuality to you = not okay. Though some might not mind it but I can think of plenty who would. Sexual harrassment is all about the other person not picking up on cue/body language that the person is uncomfortable and continuing to pursue the person once it's been established they are not interested and are feeling uncomfortable. What is the usual reaction of the people you try to get with? That should give you a clue of whether or not your behaviour is appropriate/okay.
I am careful in the way I ask and only ask the question if I've know the individual a few weeks or so. I never hit on random people. I immediately drop the subject if the other person comes out and says they are not gay or otherwise gives me a signal that they are not. I've not had a problem with this method. The thing is that dating/finding a potential date is different for us gay people than it is for straight people. Straights don't have to ask if the other person is straight. It is assumed. For us gay people we have to ask, don't we?
I think just asking someone you don’t really know if they are gay or not is poor taste. Mostly because there is already an end goal in mind for the conversation and it makes things weird.
OK. I get that, but from a broad perspective how does the gay community fit into this significant social change we seem to be going through with the MeToo movement? How can a gay person find a potential date if he's not into the bar scene and has had no luck with online dating? I'm totally confused. It seems that from the comments so far that asking anyone if they are gay is not appropriate. If I do I guess it really is sexual harassment. If this is the case I see no way to connect with other gay people and find a potential mate.
The question itself isn't necessarily sexual harassment, the problem is more the fact that this is in a work context. If someone becomes uncomfortable with you, it's going to be difficult for them to address it, especially if they're a student. They can't just avoid you or stop going to university. There's a few factors in play here. You mention that you're also a volunteer gardener so you're probably not their teacher or manager, but as you're older than them, there could still be a power differential here, especially with volunteers and students that are new. If you ask someone if they're gay, they might feel like they can't refuse to answer, which borders on harassment. Now let's say this approach works. You ask someone if they're gay, they say yes, you connect and you start dating. It goes okay for a while but then, ultimately, the relationship ends and feelings are hurt. Because of the work/school context, this person still has to see you, whether they want to or not. It's the same reason I generally advise against dating coworkers. "Are you gay?" by itself isn't sexual harassment, unless you're going around against it to random people, which it doesn't sound like you are. What you need to think about is how your behavior will be perceived, within the context that you're in.
I have to say to me it would be sort of awkward to be asked if I was gay. I've been out for over 25 years and before I met my husband had quite an active, fulfilling dating life and I honestly don't think I've ever been asked IRL if I was gay. Similarly, I'm pretty sure I've never asked anyone. It just kind of comes up when people want it to--and if it doesn't come up then they don't want you to know. In a weird way I guess I don't think it's relevant If I like someone enough to consider dating them if they are gay, then I like them enough to befriend them if they're straight
The principle is similar in way with being straight (though not as much). Asking about orientation is one of those things that makes conversation awkward.
OK. What I'm getting is that the possibility of me finding a gay man to date is pretty bleak in my unpaid, pseudo-leadership position at the garden since I'm not into the bar scene and online dating has not worked. You folks seem to be saying that asking a guy whether they are gay is considered sexual harassment in the context of the MeToo movement, but it seems to me that society has not yet defined how gay men should behave toward men in this context. I'm really confused and depressed. I know that women have suffered significantly for decades, but is our society moving back to the Elizabethan period where touch, compliments, and asking if one is gay is prohibited?
No one is saying that its sexual harassment. Just that its a fairly weird thing to do so just heads up. You are more than free to do as you will. Now that you know some people find it awkward, then maybe make sure to give some context to the question or ask it in different ways "Are you gay?" and "I saw your patch on your back pack. Is that for pride?" Sound totally different and will be perceived differently, but you are asking the same thing. For me personally, someone asking "Are you gay?" sends me into fight or flight mode instantly if I don't have context or I don't understand your intention with the question This is why its very common for lgbt people to have some way to signal each other that they are lgbt. A rainbow pin, clothes, style, etc can be used for that purpose. Coming out to other people before asking them if they are gay is usually a good idea too. I know you mentioned the bar scene and apps, but have you gone to other lgbt spaces about specific hobbies? Around my area our local plant meet up is FULL of gay guys. Its a hobby that attracts a lot of gay guys so that might be a way for you to meet people.
This has nothing to do with MeToo. It’s more with the nature of the question. The conclusion is already forgone when it is asked. It tends to hammer a reaction that usually should develop at pace.
I don't think anyone is calling this sexual harassment. It's just generally an awkward question to ask, and it's usually a good idea to avoid making people unnecessarily uncomfortable. Since the implication is that you're interested in dating, It's about as awkward as asking someone on a date. In the right context it's fine, although as others have said it would usually come up naturally anyways. I'm sorry it sounds like you're having trouble meeting people interested in dating, but I think you should probably divorce these issues from MeToo in your mind - I don't think they are related. If you're looking for advice in finding people, perhaps you could share more details about what you've tried there?
