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Always Giving

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by Nickw, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. Nickw

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    I've been reading these posts where a lot of us are trying to come to terms with our sexuality while being in opposite sex relationships and marriages.

    A theme I see over and over is how many of us are caretakers and have difficulty in accepting that our needs are important also.

    I've spent my entire life sacrificing my needs for others. Even as a young kid I took care of younger siblings and didn't have time to make friends. I take care of my wife. I took care of girlfriends. I take care of my friends.

    I take in "strays" as my wife calls them. Young men and women. This used to be professional or activity mentorships. Teaching a guy to rock climb or ski. My wife and I will take in a young surfer into our camp....all sorts of different things.

    So. I get on the apps to do some exploration and I am immediately drawn to young, lonely men. So, I take them in and I care for them. And, part of this involves intimacy.

    I decided I needed to concentrate on guys my age. But, there was no difference. I end up taking care of them too.

    Even with sex, I am always the one satisfying the needs of my partner. I've never been involved in any relationship where I've felt like my needs are just as important.

    I wonder, sometimes, if this is because I feel unworthy of receiving the care from others?

    I also wonder if this is really good for me. I endangered my immediate life twice. Where I saved someone at great personal risk without even thinking about it. I wonder if I do the same things subtlely with my relationships?

    Is this part of being gay/bi? Do any of you share the same sort of history and how do we really change this or should we?
     
    #1 Nickw, Jan 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
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  2. Dionysios

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    I don't believe that this is gay/straight thing. Some people in life are givers or takers Givers they tend to put the needs of others before their own, eg. a poor mother sacrificing her dinner so her child could eat, a guy working two jobs so his girlfriend is able to go to school, an older sibling giving up the chance to play with her friends by herself and inviting a younger sibling to tag along etc.... Then there are folks who are takers, they put their oersonal needs ahead of family and friends. A guy who goes golfing with his buds while his wife is struck home watching the kids, a child who never lifts a hand to do chores while mommy picks up after him, or a wife who cheats on her husband with a wealthier, better looking chap.

    Nickw, my friend, are a giver. It's probably a deep down trait you have. That great! You however have been surrounding yourself with takers. Your challenge is to find another giver, someone who will sacrifice for you so that your needs are met. I do hope you find that person in your life so that you can both work to make each happy and content.*smile*

    Dennis
     
  3. Nickw

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    I don't think it's that simple. My wife is a "giver", except in our relationship....at least in the past...She took care of everybody except me. Because, I never asked her and then learned not to let her.

    I think it's a fundamental flaw in my character that somehow I discourage others from considering my needs.

    I would not categorize anyone I get close to as a "taker".

    Until I came out I never even saw this about myself which is why I'm wondering if it is related, possibly, with hiding my sexuality for so long?
     
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  4. silverhalo

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    Hey Nickw, I think it is probably a really complex thing that is both good and bad. Caring for others and being able to put others first is a great trait to have but I agree there has to be limits, you should also feel as though your needs are being met and certainly it would be better not to put yourself in danger whilst trying to care for people.

    I'm not sure about it being a gay trait specifically. I mean I guess it's possible that those of us that have struggled in our journey with our sexuality are perhaps more compassionate to other people's struggles etc.
    I also wonder if the fact that EC is a support group means you get a skewed view of society in general on here. As in you are more likely to see the people that are struggling to put themselves first etc because they are struggling and the more assertive people aren't here because they have already out themselves first and presumed their dreams.
    It's all interesting stuff though.
     
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  5. whistle1

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    I think people can be givers or takers depending on the situation and the other people involved.

    This may be very simplistic, but...

    The next time you're looking on dating sites/apps, perhaps state that you are looking for an equal partnership - one with give and take where both of your needs are met.
     
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  6. silverhalo

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    I wonder if sub consciously you don't like to ask others for help or show your needs because you don't want to be vulnerable and be reliable on others?
     
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  7. smurf

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    This is a super interesting topic and something that I have been really working on lately. Below is what I have learned but I'm no expert of course so take it what you need and leave the rest.

    Yes, in some respects.

    So being in the closet is a traumatic experience. Its a violent way to exist in the world and it marks each queer person differently.

    For many of us, we learn overcompensate for being gay. Subconsciously we become overachievers, the best sons, husband, friend etc as a way to say "I am gay, but look at all the things I have accomplished so I can't be THAT bad" type of thing. Sadly, a lot of that means that we don't take care of our own needs and we put others over ourselves. For some of us, it can then turn into a codependent situation where we seek people to take care of and please because in some way we have anchor our self-esteem on being needed by others.

    So in a way, yes it has everything to do with being in the closet for so long. Its a coping mechanism that for the most part serves us well... until it doesn't.

    From my understanding is less having to do with feeling unworthy of love and more of not knowing what to do in situations where we aren't taking care of someone.

    If you want to work with on this issue then I would highly suggest you talk with a therapist to help guide you through things. Get a therapist who knows how to treat people who are codependent and they can help you point out why its happening and how to work on it.

    This is a good questions. These is one of those things that can be both good and bad all at the same time.

    The trouble comes when your self-esteem is tied to helping others because it means you will have to constantly surround yourself with new people who want to be taken care of. You help one person and move on to the next. It can be really harmful if you don't also have people in your life that are taking care of you because you do need people to take care of you.

    With my therapist, I have been able to get to a point where I have people in my life who I can count on to take care of me. They will be there when I need someone, they will check up on me, tell me to take a break when they see me pushing myself too hard etc. But I do enjoy taking care of other people so I just simply I'm pickier on how I do that now.

    I only choose to mentor people who I truly care about, I invest my time with people who I enjoy, and I make sure that I'm not doing harm while I do that.

    For hook ups and fwb, I am attracted to people who want to be taken care of. For me, its a win-win for all involved as long as boundaries are set. It will be up to you to decide how you manage that part of it all.
     
  8. Rade

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    I'm more of a giver, want my man fully satisfied. But occasionally I want to be more selfish and a taker.
    But I'm a giver in all areas of my life. But if I'm honest we should all be a bit selfish sometimes. We have needs too.
     
  9. Nickw

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    Lots of food for thought here. I did discuss some of this in therapy a few years back when I was coming out.

    So, one day I could tell my therapist was having a rough time and I ended up sitting after my session for a couple hours and discussing what was going on in his life.

    I just can't let it go sometimes...often.

    This came up now because my wife met my new "boyfriend" and she commented about me taking in another stray. And, I got to thinking about how I am skewing this relationship into me taking care of him.

    He's perfectly capable of taking care of himself and he is perfectly capable of being a generous lover.
     
  10. smurf

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    Haha yes, this is why I suggest finding someone who is knowledgeable about codependency. A good therapist would have caught this and put a stop to it.

    On my third session with my new therapist I asked "Do you need extra time to collect yourself? I can give you 15 minutes since I know you just saw another patient" Her answer? "Do you realize that you are trying to take care of the person who you are paying to take care you?" Blew my damn mind. It was the first time I finally saw it happening outside of romantic relationships.

    There are different tricks and tips on unlearning the behavior. Takes practice and self reflection, but its doable.

    Haha yes, happens to me all the time.

    Recently I noticed I was doing it with my social justice work. I would volunteer for nonprofits locally to help them organize them and teach them how to fundraise. One year I was volunteering with 4 different nonprofits and running 5-7 events at a time. All while also doing the job I was being paid to do. I quickly burnt out. It was crazy to see how codependency can creep up everywhere.

    Even this forum can be like that sometimes. Took a while to learn when to disconnect and not get invested to whether or not someone took my advice on here.
     
    #10 smurf, Jan 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  11. Nickw

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    I probably should find another therapist. But, except for this, he saved my life. I was self destructing.

    In fairness to him, my wife is a shrink and she has mentioned I would be an almost impossible client.

    I get the over volunteering you do. I cannot say no with work.

    I think, generally, I have operated pretty well like this. But, I'm having a problem with how I am treated by same sex lovers. I just need someone to seduce ME once in awhile.

    So, I told this guy I needed him to step up his game and he did once and it felt so good before I let it slip back again.
     
  12. smurf

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    Haha not sure if you notice, but in many ways you are protecting him from you "cheating" on him with another therapist. You can definitely talk to your therapist and mention that you have enjoyed his help so much so far, but that you need to focus on your codependency. You guys can come up with a plan on how to do that. Whether he feels up for the challenge, whether you can see two therapist at a time or if he can refer you to someone who he knows is good with this topic. Would be up to you and where you are in your own journey.

    If I were you, I would open up about the codepent behavior with him. Talk about it, tell him what you are struggling with, and tell him that you want to make sure you don't make the same mistake with this relationship because you care about him and then ASK FOR HIS HELP. Be vulnerable and messy. Let him see you don't have the answers and that you need his help making this work.

    Also keep in mind that... he might not be able to step up. He might also be suffering from codependency and likes to be taken care of, which is why you guys might have gotten attracted to each other to begin with. But give him the chance :slight_smile:
     
  13. Nickw

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    Yeah. That's a good idea. In my typical fashion, I'm taking him tomorrow from his small town...only single gay guy within 50 miles...to meet my group of gay friends in a liberal town 150 miles away for a Pride festival.

    So, I've set myself up for a weekend of taking care of him. I need to have this talk on the drive.
     
  14. nerdbrain

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    Hey Nick, I think it's important to highlight the term Smurf used: codependent. There's a lot of research and writing on this topic, and even a recovery fellowship called CoDA (Codependents Anonymous). Maybe you should take a look and see if the criteria apply to you. Based on what you wrote there are some strong signs.

    What's interesting about codependency, to me, is that it's actually a passive form of taking power. The codependent controls the relationship by being the caregiver, but paradoxically that prevents their own individual needs from being met.

    I'm hardly the picture of mental health, but I've been around the therapy block a few times so I hope this is helpful!
     
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  15. Nickw

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    Thanks Nerdbrain.

    I am starting to come to this realization that my behavior, certainly with respect to my relationships with gay men, is codependent. I don't know, yet, if I behave this way with all my relationships but it is likely that there is at least some of that.

    Now that I look at every single relationship I've had with gay men I see this. I DO control the relationship by being the caregiver. I'm probably not going to get what I really want out of these relationships ultimately.

    Now, I wonder if I am harming these guys by doing this. I have been involved with a couple young men. The newest one I met on an app. He seemed so lonely and rejected. So, I made it a mission to try and get him out and fired up. I've taken him biking and skiing. I've helped him look at real estate. I'm sorta his only friend because this rural area is horrible for single gay men.

    But, I can see that I'm in charge because these actions are controlling too.

    Thing is. I worry about him a lot. I'll call him just to see if he is OK. he just seems so sad and I can't stand that and want to help him.
     
  16. Nickw

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    So. If anyone has some ideas how I should deal with my current relationship I'd love to hear them.

    This guy's life sucks. Before I met him he was just doing nothing most of the time. Now, I'm getting him to the point that he sees his life can be better here. That there are things to do and there is a community available. It's just that he has to work to find it.

    I'm hoping he wakes up and realizes he might have to leave the area and move somewhere he can find another gay man to share his life.

    So. I've had this idea that I can take him under my wing and move him along. I even know a couple of young single guys to set him up with that live in the city. I've got it all planned out.

    Now that I've written this out it's pretty telling.
     
  17. DecentOne

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    Nick, you are getting great advice, and the perspective of your wife is beneficial as she is the one who named the “another stray” part. I like what @smurf and @nerdbrain said especially so won’t repeat that part in what I say.

    It sounds like you are a giving person and sensitive to other’s predicaments. Of all the things you could be dysfunctional this one is tough to recover from, but maybe not so damaging as lots of other bad choices. So you aren’t a psychopath, society can say thank you. So you take in strays... do you build them back up to function on their own? (Sounds like you may be doing that with the new guy). Could you ever be the stray, the person giving himself vulnerably to another to be cared for? I’m guessing you want to be seen as the strong one... but could you fantasize about a situation where someone else let you lean on them for a bit?
     
  18. Nickw

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    Well. I had six younger siblings I cared for. But, I really don't like it when people are dependent on me. I would say pretty much all of my friends are strong, independent people who never ask for help. I have a serious issue with what I perceive to be weakness.

    So, I take in these younger "brothers" who are always strong guys who need a bit of mentorship. I try and get them out of slumps they are in. I am happy when they go for a climb or ski without me. I relish the emails and texts I get from them as they do something exciting and gnarly with their new friends.

    I injured my spine awhile back skiing. During diagnostics they discovered a tumor which looked bad (it wasn't). I didn't tell anyone, even my wife, while it was being checked out. She had a very old and sick father. So, yeah, I fantasized that I could lean on someone then.

    I told my mom about this later. She stopped mid discussion and told me that once I was about 5 years old she quit being concerned about me and figured I didn't need anyone. She had too many other distractions and I was just always there to help out.

    This does tie into issues over my sexuality. Because I remember feeling lonely and unworthy of care. I don't ever recall,as a child, feeling strong and independent. I just remember being a freak and the way to not be a freak was to get strong and brave.

    How can we learn to ask for help when the thing that is causing the pain is something we can't tell anyone?
     
  19. Nickw

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    Update. I met my new friend. We spent a day driving around the mountains after having breakfast with my wife and then went to a Pride party at a ski area. We had a long talk. I told him I needed to not take care of him but that we needed to take care of each other. He is responding quite well and becoming much more assertive in our relationship and I am now letting myself go with him.

    I still slip into my caretaking self-sacrificing thing if I am not careful. But, he also needs me right now more than I need him. I did have something come up that was a bit of a minor crisis and he was solidly behind me. It felt good. He, pretty much, schooled me at the party by taking over and making it his thing. Loved that.
     
  20. weary

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    Glad to know men go through this as well. For me I've always seen it as the 'muse' effect. I thought it was due to conversion therapy. I've always been the one to help others to my own detriment at times. I even moved my first husband's ex-wife in with us to help her get back on her feet. At one point I even remember thinking I should help her get her family back (even though I was married to her ex). The codependency part of it was I wanted the man to be able to provide the financial support while I would provide the emotional and life-skill support they needed.

    This is a biggy as well for me. I seem to always be the one thinking of the other person's needs, wants, desires and just accepting what comes my way. I want someone to want me and want to do for me all the things I naturally do for others. I don't know how to find that. Even now going through the separation/divorce, I know I have place his need over mine. It is not something easy to change, and I doubt I have enough life left to fully change as it took all these years to become so ingrained.